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  • #21
    Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

    The simplest solution is to quietly cede TSI to NOS. Yeah, it would be the third time a chunk of Frontierland has been given up, but it would solve the thematic clash, and there's still lots of real estate in FtL if they ever decide to give it some love.
    "My mental facilities are twice what yours are, pea brain!"

    The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.



    ......... .....May April March!.....................

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    • #22
      Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

      Fair enough, Steve. Indeed, that was the frontier in its own time period, and there's certainly plenty of precedent in Frontierland representing more than just the Old West. I guess my problem is that I want Frontierland to be Westernland. (In theme, not name. And not necessarily with the same approach Tokyo Disneyland takes.)

      Anyway, like I said, since PLOTSI is generally quite conservative in its use of direct tie-ins to the POTC films these days, I'm more inclined to accept it as part of the park. Its thematic merit is certainly debatable, but when it's all said and done, I'm fairly satisfied with the explanation that we're experiencing Tom and Huck's fantasy in the frontier, even though it does little to strengthen the theme.

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      • #23
        Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

        First of all, Missouri isn't considered a "southern" sate. Twain describes the Mississippi river freezing over in his novels.

        Second, I think a lot of people are confused about Frontierland and the expansion of the American Frontier in general. In George Washington's times, the "frontier" was Ohio. As America expanded westward, the frontier diminished.

        New Orleans Square represents old New Orleans--the "Gay Paree of the American Frontier."

        The tee-pees used by the Indian village on opening day were Plains Indian dwellings.

        Frontierland represents an amalgam of the Frontier--and the 1840s Missouri frontier shares equal footing with the southwest Big Thunder Mine or the Southern New Orleans Square.
        Last edited by Steve DeGaetano; 12-18-2008, 01:07 PM.

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        • #24
          Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

          Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
          First of all, Missouri isn't considered a "southern" sate. Twain describes the Mississippi river freezing over in his novels.

          Second, I think a lot of people are confused about Frontierland and the expansion of the American Frontier in general. In George Washington's times, the "frontier" was Ohio. As America expanded westward, the frontier diminished.

          New Orleans Square represents old New Orleans--the "Gay Paree of the American Frontier."

          The tee-pees used by the Indian village on opening day were plains Indian dwellings.

          Frontierland represents an amalgam of the Frontier--and the 1840s Missouri frontier shares equal footing with the southwest Big Thunder Mine or the Southern New Orleans Square.
          Good response and good info..I suppose for myself, I'm just used to seeing a divide between the wrought-iron sort of sophistication of NoS and the current Southwest tilt of Frontierland being totally separate, as well as both being separate entities from the island. If pressured earlier while it was still purely Tom Sawyer's Island, I would have more readily linked it to NoS, but that is again, 100 percent my perception of it, and I do know the difference between that and the intended initial theming. It seems as if current day there has been a lot of thematic drift between the areas, if they started out more interlinked.
          when the spooks have a midnight jamboree....

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          • #25
            Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

            Originally posted by darkfairycthulu View Post
            It seems as if current day there has been a lot of thematic drift between the areas, if they started out more interlinked.
            That's exactly what us Theme Nazis are shouting about.

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            • #26
              Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

              This is a fascinating discussion. Do I dare join?...

              Only at Disneyland can you...
              • take an 1880s steam train to the land of Tomorrow AND a prehistoric world
              • gaze upon the Matterhorn from a flying circus elephant
              • take a seven minute jungle cruise that travels to three continents
              • splash down Chinkapin Hill (from "Song of the South") in a land originally themed to the north woods
              • and, encounter pirates on an island in the "Rivers of America."
              The original post on this thread said that Pirate's Lair was enjoyable, and I agree. Others have pointed out that it is inconsistent theming, and to that I also agree. And yet, I also agree that it doesn't especially detract from the overall Frontierland theme, at least not for me.

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              • #27
                Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                Originally posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
                If it were simply a matter of providing a more enjoyable experience for Island Guests, it would have been just as easy to adhere to a Frontierland theme, IMO. However, DIS needed a promotion to tie-in with the POTC movie opening, and appropriated TSI for this express purpose.

                I like the idea of 'plussing' the Island, but there was no need (beyond marketing) to further erode Frontierland's diminishing theme.
                It is questionable if the reason is marketing or merely using POC's franchise as a catalyst to convince Disney the island is worth investing in. Refurbs and new construction cost a great deal of money, always have, Walt used sponsers (essentially other people's money in exchange for promoting their brand) Disney prefers to use it's own money and market itself. It kills originality, but these days it seems the only way to open the wallet is to pitch a tie-in.

                Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
                Again--can someone please 'splain to me how characters set in 1840s frontier America are thematically inconsistent with Frontierland?

                Pretty please?
                Please 'splain to me how a wilderness/ rock/ fort/ shipwreck landscape without characters is a violation of frontier theme?
                "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

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                "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

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                • #28
                  Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                  Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
                  That's exactly what us Theme Nazis are shouting about.
                  Well, then, sign me up! Heh. I guess my not having a issue with it was, I always perceived those three areas as separate and not connected, so I had less or no issues. Frontierland was the American west and some Mexico, New Orleans was New Orleans and the island was off doing it's own thing. If you want them to play nice together and work on the same team, they aren't doing it clearly.
                  when the spooks have a midnight jamboree....

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                  • #29
                    Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                    Originally posted by DannyB View Post
                    take an 1880s steam train to the land of Tomorrow AND a prehistoric world
                    The train skirts the Land of Tomorrow.

                    Originally posted by DannyB View Post
                    gaze upon the Matterhorn from a flying circus elephant
                    The sightline argument is fallacious on its face. You can see Tower of Terror and another amusement park from Main Street Station. I can see airplanes from anywhere in the Park.

                    Originally posted by DannyB View Post
                    take a seven minute jungle cruise that travels to three continents
                    And this violates the theme of Adventurland how?

                    Originally posted by DannyB View Post
                    splash down Chinkapin Hill (from "Song of the South") in a land originally themed to the north woods
                    Both areas represent different portions of the American frontier. How is this a violation of theme? If you want to make the "critter" argument, I'm there.

                    Originally posted by DannyB View Post
                    and, encounter pirates on an island in the "Rivers of America."
                    an absolute violation of the Frontier theme in every respect.

                    Originally posted by DannyB View Post
                    I also agree that it doesn't especially detract from the overall Frontierland theme, at least not for me.
                    I'm not sure how anyone can logically state that a thematic violation is not a distraction. You can state that you like the idea all you want, but pirates in the American frontier are about as incongruous as a 1950s pickup truck in the area (except that Walt was around to chastise Sklarr for driving the truck on-stage).

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                    • #30
                      Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                      Originally posted by darkfairycthulu View Post
                      If you want them to play nice together and work on the same team, they aren't doing it clearly.
                      Ah, if only the lands could get along together as well as MiceChatters.

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                      • #31
                        Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                        Originally posted by techskip View Post

                        Please 'splain to me how a wilderness/ rock/ fort/ shipwreck landscape without characters is a violation of frontier theme?
                        You lost me there.

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                        • #32
                          Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                          Originally posted by DannyB View Post
                          Ah, if only the lands could get along together as well as MiceChatters.
                          For me personally, Micechatters get along better than the lands seemingly! Heh. I've yet to have had a full-on personal problem with anyone here. People have different priorities and thoughts, and that's cool with me, keeps things interesting and makes for good discussions like this one.
                          when the spooks have a midnight jamboree....

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                          • #33
                            Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                            Originally posted by techskip View Post
                            Please 'splain to me how a wilderness/ rock/ fort/ shipwreck landscape without characters is a violation of frontier theme?
                            Tom Sawyer Island nor Pirate's Lair were/are without characters. Tom Sawyer Island had direct references to characters and Pirate's Lair utilizes the voice of Davy Jones in two separate locations, features the signature of Captain Jack Sparrow on the Dead Man's Grotto sign, and features William Turner's Blacksmith shop.

                            The Island has never been without characters. So what point are you trying to make?

                            The issue is not characters being on the island -- it's that the original set of characters were thematically appropriate. The pirates, however, are not.


                            Originally posted by darkfairycthulu View Post
                            Good response and good info..I suppose for myself, I'm just used to seeing a divide between the wrought-iron sort of sophistication of NoS and the current Southwest tilt of Frontierland being totally separate, as well as both being separate entities from the island. If pressured earlier while it was still purely Tom Sawyer's Island, I would have more readily linked it to NoS, but that is again, 100 percent my perception of it, and I do know the difference between that and the intended initial theming. It seems as if current day there has been a lot of thematic drift between the areas, if they started out more interlinked.
                            Your misperception of the thematic intent of the Island and its relationship to Frontierland is a testament to Disney's creative mishandling of this area of the park. I'm sure your misunderstanding of the area is not an isolated case -- it's widespread, even, apparently, within Disney. If management had a proper understanding of the area, they would have known better than to add the Pirate overlay. Incidentally, a deep understanding of the park's creative intents and purposes seems to be almost completely absent from Team Disney Anaheim.

                            Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

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                            • #34
                              Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                              Originally posted by darkfairycthulu View Post
                              For me personally, Micechatters get along better than the lands seemingly! Heh. I've yet to have had a full-on personal problem with anyone here. People have different priorities and thoughts, and that's cool with me, keeps things interesting and makes for good discussions like this one.
                              Perhaps my comment appears a little too sarcastic coming after Steve's response, but his response hadn't appeared yet when I typed in that comment. The truth is that I'm having a lot of fun, since this is the first real Mice Chat "debate" I've gotten involved in!

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                              • #35
                                Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post

                                Incidentally, a deep understanding of the park's creative intents and purposes seems to be almost completely absent from Team Disney Anaheim.
                                And that is certainly more of an issue heh for them than it is for me...I just enjoy the parks and observe and draw my own conclusions, I don't work there
                                when the spooks have a midnight jamboree....

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                                • #36
                                  Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                  Technicly' It is still "TOM SAWYER" Island. What I would do is remove most of the POTC Movie specific tie-ins. Fix the entrance sign so the Pirate's Lair sail is not blocking the name "Tom Sawyer Island". Maybe put more of an emphasis on Jean Lafitte' re-open Fort Wilderness and of course "move" the Island to New Orleans Square and make a new Attraction Poster.
                                  Last edited by HMF; 12-18-2008, 01:10 PM.

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                                  • #37
                                    Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                    Originally posted by HMF View Post
                                    Technicly' It is still "TOM SAWYER" Island.
                                    By name only, and only to suffice the local media and fans who caused a stink when news of the overlay leaked. You'd be hard pressed to find Tom Sawyer-related references on the Island these days outside of Tom and Huck's Treehouse.

                                    Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

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                                    • #38
                                      Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                      Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
                                      You remember correctly. Some of the effects are astounding. The interactive adventures are fun, even for me.

                                      You forget your American Literature, dear sir.

                                      Missouri in the 1830s - 40s (the time period of Tom Sawyer/Huck Finn, as noted by Twain in his introduction to Tom Sawyer) WAS the frontier, plain and simple. Besides, Frontierland was meant to encapsulate a broad swath of the Frontier period--not just the old west. Frontierland was meant to evoke Colonial America through the conquering of the American West and Southwest.
                                      I see you're still fighting the civil war

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                                      • #39
                                        Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                        Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
                                        You lost me there.
                                        Well that wasn't too hard to do...

                                        Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                                        Tom Sawyer Island nor Pirate's Lair were/are without characters. Tom Sawyer Island had direct references to characters and Pirate's Lair utilizes the voice of Davy Jones in two separate locations, features the signature of Captain Jack Sparrow on the Dead Man's Grotto sign, and features William Turner's Blacksmith shop.

                                        The Island has never been without characters. So what point are you trying to make?

                                        The issue is not characters being on the island -- it's that the original set of characters were thematically appropriate. The pirates, however, are not.
                                        :rolls up sleeves: Ok here we go

                                        The island was "rethemed" with a Pirate overlay but what can you see from the river? Without Jack and the Bootstrappers what can actually be seen? You see rocks, a makeshift fort, a badly themed real fort, and a shipwreck... So... how is any of that "not in theme" with the Frontier? Once you are on the island... keyword "on"... there are references to the movie but aside from characters no indication of how old those references are. The blacksmith shop is what it is... a shop... Jack's name on a cave is just that... a name... with no reference to how old it is or how long it has been there. With a minimal amount of imagination it becomes Tom's or Huck's island where they pretended to be pirates. This is of course when the respective Pirate characters are not walking around... that is what ruins the effect IMO and breaks theme.

                                        So... without the characters... how does the island when viewed from the outside break the theme of either NOS or Frontierland?
                                        "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

                                        sigpic

                                        "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

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                                        • #40
                                          Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                          Originally posted by techskip View Post
                                          Well that wasn't too hard to do...

                                          :rolls up sleeves: Ok here we go

                                          The island was "rethemed" with a Pirate overlay but what can you see from the river? Without Jack and the Bootstrappers what can actually be seen? You see rocks, a makeshift fort, a badly themed real fort, and a shipwreck... So... how is any of that "not in theme" with the Frontier? Once you are on the island... keyword "on"... there are references to the movie but aside from characters no indication of how old those references are. The blacksmith shop is what it is... a shop... Jack's name on a cave is just that... a name... with no reference to how old it is or how long it has been there. With a minimal amount of imagination it becomes Tom's or Huck's island where they pretended to be pirates. This is of course when the respective Pirate characters are not walking around... that is what ruins the effect IMO and breaks theme.

                                          So... without the characters... how does the island when viewed from the outside break the theme of either NOS or Frontierland?
                                          I see what you're getting at.

                                          I think it's a weak argument, and seemingly the reasoning WDI uses quite frequently these days.

                                          It's like Toy Story Midway Mania in DCA. A beautifully-themed victorian building on a 1920s seaside pier. But nevermind when you get inside -- it's all contemporary and uses overtly modern technology to carry the show.

                                          This sort of half-hearted Imagineering where an attraction looks thematically appropriate from the outer facade, but is completely out of place on the inside does not justify it for being completely out of theme. Just because Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island looks appropriate from the outside (pirate flags, singing pirates, and piratey rafts notwithstanding) doesn't mean it is thematically appropriate for Frontierland or even New Orleans Square.

                                          Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

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