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  • #81
    Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

    Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    No, there isn't. Does this present some kind of thematic problem?
    No problem, just an example of Disney expanding on a section of the book is all...

    I disagree entirely. You simply would not find this kind of nautical paraphenalia in a mid-Missippi river Missouri island in the 1840s
    Random thought... but a possible merchant ship that grounded on the island during a storm?

    Where is this 17th century pirate in New Orleans Square you speak of. Wandering the courtyards, I've yet to encounter one (I thankfully missed the silly Jack Sparrow impersonators).
    It's called Pirates of the Carribean, it's entrance is in NOS as is the exit... and while NOS is 1860's once you step inside the magic boat you are sent down a waterfall and back in time... but when you enter the caves on TSI there is supposidly no magic.
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    • #82
      Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

      Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
      First of all, remember that the "ship" portrayed by Disney (A square rigger with masts, etc). wouldn't be found in a "river." It's out of place in that context alone.

      Second, your question should reference ships from the 1600s--the great age of pirates. Things were quite different in lots of respects from more modern ships:

      Take "crow's nests." Ships from the 1600s had them, but ships from the 1860s (and I think you mean 1830s) had "tops" which were just platforms. We associate crows' nests with pirates, which is why Disney uses them.

      If you do mean 1860s, naval guns had changed dramatically from the 1600s in terms of shape/size. Compare this mid-18th century naval gun design (from the Columbia, but pretty accurate; a design that goes back to the 1600s)


      The simple fact is every scenic element, whether seen from the Mark Twain on on the island itself, is anachronistic. This is not really a matter of opinion. It's fact. The fact that such wreckage would never be found 1000 miles up the Mississippi, the Missouri or the Ohio should be enough to close this case.
      I don't profess a great knowledge of ships or ship construction which is specifically why I asked. However I noticed that the cannon pictured above is a very close match to what is found on the island. The second half of the question (posted later) is if it could potentially be a merchant ship (again not sure on ship construction). I remember KotF explaining a while back how a river boat would guide much larger vessels upriver and the sails would not be unfurled. Would the Colombia be any different from this shipwreck? Again, a question.
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      • #83
        Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

        Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
        I think it's important, also, to understand the name of the attraction:

        Tom Sawyer Island wasn't Tom Sawyer's Island. The name of the Island indicates that it was named after Tom Sawyer, which, in a theme park setting, would arguably imply inspiration from Tom Sawyer, not ownership. It is not "Tom Sawyer's Island."
        Just a friendly warning not to lean too hard on arguments like that:



        (Screen grab from 40 Pounds of Trouble, with Tony Curtis and Suzanne Pleshette. There are lots of shots of 1962 Disneyland.)
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        The conversation continues at Long-Forgotten, the blog.



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        • #84
          Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

          Originally posted by techskip View Post
          Random thought... but a possible merchant ship that grounded on the island during a storm?
          There's a reason "river boats" were used on the American Rivers, and not square riggers. You simply WOULD NOT find the hull of such an ocean-going vessel up the Mississippi.

          The Columbia found the mouth of the Columbia river, but only sailed up a small portion--and that type of river is different than the shallow Mississippi of Twain's youth.

          Originally posted by techskip View Post
          It's called Pirates of the Carribean, it's entrance is in NOS as is the exit... and while NOS is 1860's once you step inside the magic boat you are sent down a waterfall and back in time... but when you enter the caves on TSI there is supposidly no magic.
          The ride starts out and ends in 1860s New Orleans. Then, you are transported *away* from the 1860s and the Crescent City, to the Caribbean of the 1600s. The pirates themselves don't exist in New Orleans Square--if you have imagination enough to believe you just went back in time and hundreds of miles away.

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          • #85
            Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

            The 1787-built Columbia is far and away a different vessel than a 1600 galleon.

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            • #86
              Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

              Originally posted by techskip View Post
              It's called Pirates of the Carribean, it's entrance is in NOS as is the exit... and while NOS is 1860's once you step inside the magic boat you are sent down a waterfall and back in time... but when you enter the caves on TSI there is supposidly no magic.
              Pirates of the Caribbean uses a mechanism for time travel. What is Tom Sawyer Island's? Does time change as you cross the river on your raft? It can't change when you enter Dead Man's Grotto, because that wouldn't explain the rest of the pirate features on the island. How can you be simultaneously in the time period of the Pirates of the Caribbean film trilogy AND in Tom Sawyer's time? Piracy in the Caribbean died off in the 1720s. Tom Sawyer is in the antebellum period of the South. While no exact time frame for The Adventures of Tom Sawyer is ever noted, SparkNotes estimates its around 1845.

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              • #87
                Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                Originally posted by HBG2 View Post
                Just a friendly warning not to lean too hard on arguments like that:



                (Screen grab from 40 Pounds of Trouble, with Tony Curtis and Suzanne Pleshette. There are lots of shots of 1962 Disneyland.)
                Interesting -- thanks for that. Then my argument is somewhat moot. Does anybody know when Disney changed the name of the Island?

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                • #88
                  Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                  Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                  Tom Sawyer Island is still part of Frontierland. Just because you can't see pirate characters from the main land doesn't mean the Pirate's Lair theme is thematically correct for Frontierland or, for that matter, New Orleans Square or Critter Country.
                  So then... please explain how NOS and POC fit... because the only "link" is that POC is hidden beneath NOS...

                  I don't know why you're spending so much time focusing on what can be seen of the Island from the mainland or from the river traffic. All of that is irrelevant. What IS relevant is that Pirates now reside in Frontierland, which is thematically wrong.
                  It is entirely relevant if you consider that POC fits within NOS simply because it is "hidden" from view. You simply can not accept one without accepting the other.


                  Nevermind the name of the attraction that immediately indicates the pirate theme.
                  Nevermind that I already posted that you can't see the name from Frontierland and it can easily be changed.
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                  • #89
                    Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                    Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                    While no exact time frame for The Adventures of Tom Sawyer is ever noted, SparkNotes estimates its around 1845.

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                    • #90
                      Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                      Originally posted by HBG2 View Post
                      Random thought... but a possible merchant ship that grounded on the island during a storm?
                      The Explorer's Map of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island says this about the Shipwreck:
                      No fearsome storm did leave this shipwreck high upon the rocks at Pirate's Den, they say. T'was something monstrous that stirred the sea that day and tore this mighty ship in twain.

                      The map's reference to "something monstrous" is indicative of the Kraken, which does the will of Davy Jones in the Pirates of the Caribbean films. Why would a harmless merchant ship get attacked by the Kraken in Tom Sawyer's Mississippi River?

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                      • #91
                        Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                        Originally posted by techskip View Post
                        So then... please explain how NOS and POC fit... because the only "link" is that POC is hidden beneath NOS...

                        It is entirely relevant if you consider that POC fits within NOS simply because it is "hidden" from view. You simply can not accept one without accepting the other.


                        Nevermind that I already posted that you can't see the name from Frontierland and it can easily be changed.
                        The name isn't changed and isn't going to be changed. It's still "Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island" which clearly indicates a Pirate theme. And if you want to talk about seeing the signage from Frontierland, well, the official Disneyland maps highlight the border of the Rivers of America up to Fowler's Harbor as belonging to Frontierland, if I'm not mistaken. So technically, I guess one could say that you CAN see the Pirate's Lair signage from Frontierland.

                        As for your Pirates of the Caribbean argument... Steve said it well enough:

                        Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
                        The ride starts out and ends in 1860s New Orleans. Then, you are transported *away* from the 1860s and the Crescent City, to the Caribbean of the 1600s. The pirates themselves don't exist in New Orleans Square--if you have imagination enough to believe you just went back in time and hundreds of miles away.

                        Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

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                        • #92
                          Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                          Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                          Why would a harmless merchant ship get attacked by the Kraken in Tom Sawyer's Mississippi River?
                          Global warming forced it to migrate north into fresh water after it staged its own death to avoid getting its since-departed master into trouble?

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                          • #93
                            Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                            Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
                            The 1787-built Columbia is far and away a different vessel than a 1600 galleon.
                            Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
                            There's a reason "river boats" were used on the American Rivers, and not square riggers. You simply WOULD NOT find the hull of such an ocean-going vessel up the Mississippi.

                            The Columbia found the mouth of the Columbia river, but only sailed up a small portion--and that type of river is different than the shallow Mississippi of Twain's youth.
                            Thank you

                            The ride starts out and ends in 1860s New Orleans. Then, you are transported *away* from the 1860s and the Crescent City, to the Caribbean of the 1600s. The pirates themselves don't exist in New Orleans Square--if you have imagination enough to believe you just went back in time and hundreds of miles away.
                            Otherwise if you lack the imagination then you simply went down a waterfall and you're in NOS seeing the pirates of the Spanish Main.

                            Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                            Pirates of the Caribbean uses a mechanism for time travel. What is Tom Sawyer Island's? Does time change as you cross the river on your raft? It can't change when you enter Dead Man's Grotto, because that wouldn't explain the rest of the pirate features on the island. How can you be simultaneously in the time period of the Pirates of the Caribbean film trilogy AND in Tom Sawyer's time? Piracy in the Caribbean died off in the 1720s. Tom Sawyer is in the antebellum period of the South. While no exact time frame for The Adventures of Tom Sawyer is ever noted, SparkNotes estimates its around 1845.
                            As I have pointed out multiple times the only direct references to Pirates are hidden within the depths of the island and out of view of the river and Frontierland... so the "mechanism" is the magic of entering the ship/cave... same as the "mechinism" for POC is going down a waterfall...
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                            • #94
                              Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                              Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                              The Explorer's Map of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island says this about the Shipwreck:
                              No fearsome storm did leave this shipwreck high upon the rocks at Pirate's Den, they say. T'was something monstrous that stirred the sea that day and tore this mighty ship in twain.
                              The map's reference to "something monstrous" is indicative of the Kraken, which does the will of Davy Jones in the Pirates of the Caribbean films. Why would a harmless merchant ship get attacked by the Kraken in Tom Sawyer's Mississippi River?
                              Once again something given once on the island not something outwardly seen.
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                              • #95
                                Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                Originally posted by Aladdin View Post
                                Well, the Captain Jack Sparrow show on the island has been gone for a while. That was part of the addition, that is no longer. There was a meet and greet area for him too, and I don't suppose they are using that anymore.

                                The bootstrappers were ok for a short stay by Cafe Orleans, and they did develope some fans. They were ok for a year, but they overstayed their welcome.

                                The rest of the island additions were good and enhanced your stay, with one exception. WHY the cannibal bone cage?!?!?!? This is Pirates Lair on TS Island, NOT CANNIBAL Island!!!
                                Hahaha! yes that thing freaks me out XD

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                                • #96
                                  Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                  Originally posted by techskip View Post
                                  Thank you

                                  Otherwise if you lack the imagination then you simply went down a waterfall and you're in NOS seeing the pirates of the Spanish Main.

                                  As I have pointed out multiple times the only direct references to Pirates are hidden within the depths of the island and out of view of the river and Frontierland... so the "mechanism" is the magic of entering the ship/cave... same as the "mechinism" for POC is going down a waterfall...
                                  What about the narration on the Mark Twain that talks about the pirates on the Island? And even if you think it looks okay, there is still "Lafitte's Tavern" clearly visible from the main land, along with a ship mast, cannon, and jolly roger flag and very close to each other on the front of the Island -- and when you add all those pieces together they clearly indicate a pirate theme.

                                  Originally posted by techskip View Post
                                  Once again something given once on the island not something outwardly seen.
                                  That doesn't change its thematic intent.

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                                  • #97
                                    Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                    Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                                    What about the narration on the Mark Twain that talks about the pirates on the Island? And even if you think it looks okay, there is still "Lafitte's Tavern" clearly visible from the main land, along with a ship mast, cannon, and jolly roger flag and very close to each other on the front of the Island -- and when you add all those pieces together they clearly indicate a pirate theme.

                                    That doesn't change its thematic intent.
                                    It's been a while but I believe the pirate narraration is from the Colombia not the Twain. I believe the Twain reference is strictly Tom and Huck playing in the shipwrecks... but I could be wrong as I said it's been a while. As to the pieces, that is what they are, pieces, open to interpretation. Without the actual Pirates the entire Pirate theme really unravels which was my initial point.
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                                    • #98
                                      Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                      Originally posted by techskip View Post
                                      It's been a while but I believe the pirate narraration is from the Colombia not the Twain. I believe the Twain reference is strictly Tom and Huck playing in the shipwrecks... but I could be wrong as I said it's been a while. As to the pieces, that is what they are, pieces, open to interpretation. Without the actual Pirates the entire Pirate theme really unravels which was my initial point.
                                      The pieces create a whole. You keep wanting to separate them and look at them individually. When you do that, you're right, they're just pieces and each piece is open to interpretation. But that's not how it works. You're missing the sum of the parts -- everything works together to create the Pirate theme, even if the Pirate characters that you continue to dwell on, are absent.

                                      It isn't like there is a random pirate flag on the Island that holds little relevance. The Pirate flag is part of the overall theme and show -- a theme and show that is wholly out of place in Frontierland.

                                      And that's my point.

                                      Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

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                                      • #99
                                        Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                        While I am no where near qualified to debate with this bunch, I really enjoy reading the discussion. Carry on!

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                                        • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                          Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                                          The pieces create a whole. You keep wanting to separate them and look at them individually. When you do that, you're right, they're just pieces and each piece is open to interpretation. But that's not how it works. You're missing the sum of the parts -- everything works together to create the Pirate theme, even if the Pirate characters that you continue to dwell on, are absent.

                                          It isn't like there is a random pirate flag on the Island that holds little relevance. The Pirate flag is part of the overall theme and show -- a theme and show that is wholly out of place in Frontierland.

                                          And that's my point.
                                          I look at the pieces because without the Pirates the pieces are incomplete and falter, allowing for a range of interpretations... it is specifically the visual effect of live Pirates that complete the theme as a Pirate Island. Notice how long it took to get to that point... every post the Pirates themselves were highlighted... and when asked what represented the Pirates that was not interchangeable there was silence. The Pirates make the scene, not the other way around, without them the scene can easily be interpreted differently. The added fact that everything is well hidden from Frontierland, including the sign, further indicates WDI's attempt to make it a fluid theme so when the Pirate fad faded they could change it over without complications. Now is when that changeover can occur. If you hadn't seen the movie or read the map, and you were visiting with the notion that it was Tom's Island (which it has been since day 1) then it would not be a stretch to think of Tom and Huck playing pirates in the shipwrecks.

                                          The added comment is that this overlay brought so much more to a neglected island. They convinced Disney to open the piggy bank but ensured that the changes would work with or without Pirates... bravo to WDI for actually planning ahead on that one.

                                          Originally posted by aashee View Post
                                          While I am no where near qualified to debate with this bunch, I really enjoy reading the discussion. Carry on!
                                          You are more then qualified to join in... we always need a well placed fart joke to lighten the mood!
                                          "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

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