Announcement

Collapse
1 of 2 < >

MiceChat Rules

A list of MiceChat's rules can be found at the top of the Disneyland forum.
2 of 2 < >

Ad Blockers

Please do not use ad blocking software when visiting MiceChat. It costs money to keep MiceChat online, and ad revenue offsets this. Thank you.
See more
See less

In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

Collapse

Ad Widget

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

    Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    I don't recall the pirates as too hidden, Skip. When we steamed past the area on the Mark Twain last year, all I could think of when I saw what I saw on the island was that I was no longer on a Mississippi sternwheeler in the 1840s. The illusion was destroyed.
    Were the various characters running around on the island? What specifically in your mind screamed "Pirates"?

    Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
    Victorian theming in 1860s New orleans Square is perectly IN theme--The 1860s were smack dab in the middle of the Victorian era.
    True... but was NOS in the middle of the Victorian Age? because everything I have read indicates that #1 USA hit their stride later (Usually what Europe considered the Edwardian period) and #2 NOS like the rest of the South was smack dab in the middle of a war! If anything NOS should be occupied by the North at that time.
    "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

    sigpic

    "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

      Originally posted by techskip View Post
      So we excuse a Victorian Theme in 1860's NOS because it is a Private Club, we excuse the manner of dress of modern tourists in 1860's bayou because it is a modern restaurant, and we excuse the Pirates in modern NOS because Walt put them there... but Pirates hidden on the island are unacceptable? In all 4 cases cited only the facade matches the theme!
      Originally posted by techskip View Post
      So we excuse a Victorian Theme in 1860's NOS because it is a Private Club, we excuse the manner of dress of modern tourists in 1860's bayou because it is a modern restaurant, and we excuse the Pirates in modern NOS because Walt put them there... but Pirates hidden on the island are unacceptable? In all 4 cases cited only the facade matches the theme!
      I didn't think I really needed to defend Club 33. I guess I did. I wasn't saying that Club 33 is okay simply because it's a private club. No, Club 33 is appropriate because of New Orleans Square's temporal setting. And in my limited research of the issue, it seems that early Victorian-style homes could be found in the United States even in the 1850s. New Orleans Square is temporally placed in the 1860s. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that the Victorian theme of Club 33 is accurate to New Orleans Square.

      As for the modern tourists in the 1860s bayou -- well, we might as well shut down the entire park then, because a modern tourist will NEVER fit into ANY area of Disneyland. This is by far your weakest argument thus far. I mean, come on -- what about the modern tourists in the attraction's bateaux?



      Originally posted by techskip View Post
      Were the various characters running around on the island? What specifically in your mind screamed "Pirates"?
      Your reliance on visible characters as an argument is shortsighted. Especially when defending the Island from the viewpoint of a Mark Twain passenger --- the "Captain" narration overtly talks about the new Pirates on the island. And as you pass around you can see the big, piratey additions -- especially the Davy Jones shipwreck, Smuggler's Cove with its giant bone cage which is instantly recognizable from Pirates 2, and if you're lucky, you can see pirates running around the island.

      Also, from the main land, how do you explain the crow's nest, pirate flag, canon, the name "Laffitte" on prominent signage, and occasional singing pirates on the Island?

      Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

        Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
        I didn't think I really needed to defend Club 33. I guess I did. I wasn't saying that Club 33 is okay simply because it's a private club. No, Club 33 is appropriate because of New Orleans Square's temporal setting. And in my limited research of the issue, it seems that early Victorian-style homes could be found in the United States even in the 1850s. New Orleans Square is temporally placed in the 1860s. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that the Victorian theme of Club 33 is accurate to New Orleans Square.
        It's ability to "fit" is questionable, but it is behind a closed door and the facade fits and that's what counts (same as Pirates).

        As for the modern tourists in the 1860s bayou -- well, we might as well shut down the entire park then, because a modern tourist will NEVER fit into ANY area of Disneyland. This is by far your weakest argument thus far. I mean, come on -- what about the modern tourists in the attraction's bateaux?
        It was a joke... but it does point out that they didn't really try to mask the attraction from the dining or vice versa...

        Your reliance on visible characters as an argument is shortsighted. Especially when defending the Island from the viewpoint of a Mark Twain passenger --- the "Captain" narration overtly talks about the new Pirates on the island. And as you pass around you can see the big, piratey additions -- especially the Davy Jones shipwreck, Smuggler's Cove with its giant bone cage which is instantly recognizable from Pirates 2, and if you're lucky, you can see pirates running around the island.
        You see a shipwreck... wow... they couldn't possibly have had shipwrecks in Tom's day... You see a bone cage along with a bunch of rope bridges... without seeing the movie is it possible to think maybe that came out of the ship etc? Aside from actual Pirates... what overtly ties it to actual Pirates and not a couple boys who built a fort on an island with a shipwreck and flew the Jolly Roger?

        Also, from the main land, how do you explain the crow's nest, pirate flag, canon, the name "Laffitte" on prominent signage, and occasional singing pirates on the Island?
        Now who has the weak argument... "Laffitte" is a common enough name... you already mentioned the shipwreck... and I mentioned building a fort out of scrap, flying the Jolly Roger, and pretending to be a Pirate! For that matter "Laffitte" might have built his shop from salvaged wood off the shipwreck and he liked the mast/crows nest... It's an old southern building on an old island... And I am positive they wouldn't have had cannons in Tom's day... you're right that's the smoking gun... or cannon if you will... everything is blatently out of theme without the need to see actual Pirates!

        If you told an individual who hadn't seen Pirates that the island was an old island with a few shipwrecks and some kids used to pretend they were pirates... I'd buy it... because without the Bootstrappers and Jack walking around that's what it looks like!

        By the way... how do we explain Swiss alongside Indy? Or did we simply accept it because they both have an adventurous jungle theme? Not that it really matters since they replaced it with Tarzan... but Swiss WAS a different time period. I would also comment that Jungle Cruise was actually brought up to speed to support the addition of Indy (from 1900's to 1930's) but what was done to Swiss...
        Last edited by techskip; 12-19-2008, 11:22 AM.
        "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

        sigpic

        "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

          Originally posted by techskip View Post
          It's ability to "fit" is questionable, but it is behind a closed door and the facade fits and that's what counts (same as Pirates).

          It was a joke... but it does point out that they didn't really try to mask the attraction from the dining or vice versa...
          The facade fits and that's what counts? Hmm, maybe they should have put a Buzz Lightyear attraction in Sleeping Beauty Castle as Swab suggested earlier in this thread -- I mean, the facade would still work with its surroundings, and that's all that matters, right?

          And why would they try to mask the attraction from the dining? The restaurant is themed as a plantation dinner party, and is integrated into the Pirates of the Caribbean show. I don't see the issue here -- it all works. The "present-day" 1860s plantation dinner party is not in conflict with the Pirates of the Caribbean bayou scene, because you do not go back in time until the waterfalls. So I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.


          Originally posted by techskip View Post
          You see a shipwreck... wow... they couldn't possibly have had shipwrecks in Tom's day... You see a bone cage along with a bunch of rope bridges... without seeing the movie is it possible to think maybe that came out of the ship etc? Aside from actual Pirates... what overtly ties it to actual Pirates and not a couple boys who built a fort on an island with a shipwreck and flew the Jolly Roger?
          A pirate shipwreck in the Mississippi river? Hmm... okay.

          And did Tom and Huck build the fort? I was under the impression the only thing that was actually theres was the tree house, and Castle rock where they rigged up their telescopes at the various look out points. The boys didn't build Fort Wilderness or the bridges. Those were just part of the island. I could be wrong... perhaps Steve knows more about what was actually built by the boys on Tom Sawyer Island.

          Furthermore, it's quite hard to believe that Tom and Huck have anything to do with the Island anymore when the only thing left with their mark is the Treehouse -- all other references to them are gone. If the boys were supposed to be playing pirate games on the Island, why weren't Tom and Huck face characters introduced to "play" with the Pirates when Pirate's Lair opened?

          Originally posted by techskip View Post
          Now who has the weak argument... "Laffitte" is a common enough name... you already mentioned the shipwreck... and I mentioned building a fort out of scrap, flying the Jolly Roger, and pretending to be a Pirate! For that matter "Laffitte" might have built his shop from salvaged wood off the shipwreck and he liked the mast/crows nest... It's an old southern building on an old island... And I am positive they wouldn't have had cannons in Tom's day... you're right that's the smoking gun... or cannon if you will... everything is blatently out of theme without the need to see actual Pirates!

          If you told an individual who hadn't seen Pirates that the island was an old island with a few shipwrecks and some kids used to pretend they were pirates... I'd buy it... because without the Bootstrappers and Jack walking around that's what it looks like!
          You're forgetting the context in which the name "Lafitte" is present. You're forgetting that Pirate swords and guns are "stowed" outside of Lafitte's Tavern. You're forgetting that PIRATES perform outside of the tavern. The name "Lafitte" isn't just being used as an everyday common name -- it's being used to support the theme of pirates, especially Pirates of the Caribbean. -- NOT Tom and Huck. This goes for the crow's nest, the Jolly Roger, the cannon, etc. All of these are being used to support the Pirates of the Caribbean theme - not the Tom and Huck theme. Also -- remember that the part of the book where Tom and Huck actually pretend to be pirates is quite small.

          Originally posted by techskip View Post
          By the way... how do we explain Swiss alongside Indy? Or did we simply accept it because they both have an adventurous jungle theme? I would also comment that Jungle Cruise was actually brought up to speed to support the addition of Indy (from 1900's to 1930's) but what was done to Swiss...
          The incongruity of Adventureland's temporal themes isn't without notice. I know that the Jungle Cruise was moved to the 1930s when Indiana Jones opened, but did the rest of the land change too? Adventureland is an amalgam of different locales... I'm not sure if this variation in location also means that a variation in temporal setting within the land is allowed. To be honest, I'm much less familiar with Adventureland's thematic issues than you probably would be, skip.

          Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

            Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
            And did Tom and Huck build the fort? I was under the impression the only thing that was actually theres was the tree house, and Castle rock where they rigged up their telescopes at the various look out points. The boys didn't build Fort Wilderness or the bridges. Those were just part of the island. I could be wrong... perhaps Steve knows more about what was actually built by the boys on Tom Sawyer Island.
            I would agree with this.

            Tom Sawyer Island isn't meant to be the "Jackson's Isand" of Twain's stories. In those storeis, the island is deserted. There is no fort, no treehouse, no rocks. There is a cave mentioned on the mainland--which is the inspiration for the Disney caves.

            Disney's Tom Sawyer Island is meant to suggest Jackson's Island, but is more expansive--hence the fort (what once was a perfectly respectible mid-1800s fort), the caves and the treehouse.

            Skip can keep trying, but there really is no way to shoehorn the 17th century Caribbean Pirate theme into it's American Frontier surroundings. The Lafitte arguent is weak--Lafitte was no more a pirate in the Caribbean sense than Blackbeard is a 19th century U.S. Cavalry officer.

            And we're not realy talking a 19th century Swiss treehouse next to a 1930s river launch company. In that example, there is a spacial separation as well as temporal one. However, there is no spacial separation when 17th century Pirates exist inside an area meant to represent the 1830s American frontier.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

              Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
              The facade fits and that's what counts? Hmm, maybe they should have put a Buzz Lightyear attraction in Sleeping Beauty Castle as Swab suggested earlier in this thread -- I mean, the facade would still work with its surroundings, and that's all that matters, right?
              Well it works for POC...

              And why would they try to mask the attraction from the dining? The restaurant is themed as a plantation dinner party, and is integrated into the Pirates of the Caribbean show. I don't see the issue here -- it all works. The "present-day" 1860s plantation dinner party is not in conflict with the Pirates of the Caribbean bayou scene, because you do not go back in time until the waterfalls. So I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.
              I will use an old Skip's quote for this one...

              "You want to know why I hate Indy's exit... here's why... we make a big deal about leaving the dock. Out we go... out to the middle of nowhere... not a person around for miles and miles... then you turn the corner and there's a kid with mickey ears, Disneyland t-shirt and a stupid balloon..."

              Personally I think the constant chatter, daylight streaming in from outside, and a myrid of other things completely steals the peace from the bayou scene. They could easily have masked it with foilage and played period music. From BB you would see a dark and wild bayou, from the boats you would see a house, lots of trees, and the music of a dinner party. I welcome the nights when BB is closed and that area is peaceful.

              A pirate shipwreck in the Mississippi river? Hmm... okay.
              correction a shipwreck... the Jolly Roger ties it into Pirates and anyone could have placed that there... for all we know it was a merchant ship caught in a storm. To a kid any wooden ship has the potential to be a pirate ship!

              And did Tom and Huck build the fort? I was under the impression the only thing that was actually theres was the tree house, and Castle rock where they rigged up their telescopes at the various look out points. The boys didn't build Fort Wilderness or the bridges. Those were just part of the island. I could be wrong... perhaps Steve knows more about what was actually built by the boys on Tom Sawyer Island.

              Furthermore, it's quite hard to believe that Tom and Huck have anything to do with the Island anymore when the only thing left with their mark is the Treehouse -- all other references to them are gone. If the boys were supposed to be playing pirate games on the Island, why weren't Tom and Huck face characters introduced to "play" with the Pirates when Pirate's Lair opened?
              My comment has been and continues to be that without the Pirates there, the island is simply and island and it's inhabitants left to interpretation. When it opened it had face characters, and all traces of Tom n Huck were wiped clean. Now without the face characters all that is left is references... if they brought back the old rafts and took down the "Lair" sign most would probably buy that Tom and Huck were playing pirates.

              You're forgetting the context in which the name "Lafitte" is present. You're forgetting that Pirate swords and guns are "stowed" outside of Lafitte's Tavern. You're forgetting that PIRATES perform outside of the tavern. The name "Lafitte" isn't just being used as an everyday common name -- it's being used to support the theme of pirates, especially Pirates of the Caribbean. -- NOT Tom and Huck. This goes for the crow's nest, the Jolly Roger, the cannon, etc. All of these are being used to support the Pirates of the Caribbean theme - not the Tom and Huck theme. Also -- remember that the part of the book where Tom and Huck actually pretend to be pirates is quite small.
              Quite the contrary I am not forgetting anything... but it seems you forgot to discount the face characters (which again was the point of my initial post). According to your comment Tom and Huck didn't build the building, or salvage the crow's nest, so who knows where it came from. Pirate swords... makes sense if you are playing Pirates and find Pirate stuff from inside the caves (only place hidden which has actual Pirate references that are not implied by the movie). As to that area "being quite small" it wouldn't be the first time Disney expanded on a small portion of a book or movie.

              The incongruity of Adventureland's temporal themes isn't without notice. I know that the Jungle Cruise was moved to the 1930s when Indiana Jones opened, but did the rest of the land change too? Adventureland is an amalgam of different locales... I'm not sure if this variation in location also means that a variation in temporal setting within the land is allowed. To be honest, I'm much less familiar with Adventureland's thematic issues than you probably would be, skip.
              All of Adventureland was converted over when Indy was tossed in except Swiss. Because Swiss was empty, they didn't care... technically it didn't even match Jungle... but it was basically grandfathered in because Walt had a hand in it... same as Pirates... We can also talk about Tomorrowland Station... great facade as you board an antique train (definately antique when you consider the theme of Tomorrowland). Steve will likely bring up the two trains, two stations comment which Walt used to preserve his theme... be even he eventually broke down and allowed the trains to be trains and stop at every station... I am not sure when Tomorrowland Station was constructed, but when it was that right there was a break in theme.

              We can debate to no end but the point is it's an island, it fits as an island be it Mississippi or Missouri or New Orleans... it's an island. You would have a better chance arguing about the construction of the fort then about some old building which do match and a shipwreck from an ill fated ship caught in a storm.
              "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

              sigpic

              "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
                I would agree with this.

                Tom Sawyer Island isn't meant to be the "Jackson's Isand" of Twain's stories. In those storeis, the island is deserted. There is no fort, no treehouse, no rocks. There is a cave mentioned on the mainland--which is the inspiration for the Disney caves.

                Disney's Tom Sawyer Island is meant to suggest Jackson's Island, but is more expansive--hence the fort (what once was a perfectly respectible mid-1800s fort), the caves and the treehouse.

                Skip can keep trying, but there really is no way to shoehorn the 17th century Caribbean Pirate theme into it's American Frontier surroundings. The Lafitte arguent is weak--Lafitte was no more a pirate in the Caribbean sense than Blackbeard is a 19th century U.S. Cavalry officer.

                And we're not realy talking a 19th century Swiss treehouse next to a 1930s river launch company. In that example, there is a spacial separation as well as temporal one. However, there is no spacial separation when 17th century Pirates exist inside an area meant to represent the 1830s American frontier.
                Well said, Steve

                Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                  Originally posted by techskip View Post
                  Well it works for POC...

                  I will use an old Skip's quote for this one...

                  "You want to know why I hate Indy's exit... here's why... we make a big deal about leaving the dock. Out we go... out to the middle of nowhere... not a person around for miles and miles... then you turn the corner and there's a kid with mickey ears, Disneyland t-shirt and a stupid balloon..."

                  Personally I think the constant chatter, daylight streaming in from outside, and a myrid of other things completely steals the peace from the bayou scene. They could easily have masked it with foilage and played period music. From BB you would see a dark and wild bayou, from the boats you would see a house, lots of trees, and the music of a dinner party. I welcome the nights when BB is closed and that area is peaceful.
                  So your argument regarding the Blue Bayou is one of personal preference. You simply don't like the plantation dinner party theme and the chatter and commotion that comes with it. It isn't a matter of poor theming -- it's a matter of your personal preference. It's fine that you don't like it -- but that doesn't mean it's improperly themed.

                  Originally posted by techskip View Post
                  correction a shipwreck... the Jolly Roger ties it into Pirates and anyone could have placed that there... for all we know it was a merchant ship caught in a storm. To a kid any wooden ship has the potential to be a pirate ship!
                  My comment has been and continues to be that without the Pirates there, the island is simply and island and it's inhabitants left to interpretation. When it opened it had face characters, and all traces of Tom n Huck were wiped clean. Now without the face characters all that is left is references... if they brought back the old rafts and took down the "Lair" sign most would probably buy that Tom and Huck were playing pirates.
                  Yeah, except inside the shipwreck Davy Jones specifically talks about it being a pirate ship. And the name of the attraction: "Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island" would imply that pirates are involved with this shipwreck.

                  You're looking at bits and pieces of the island and separating them from the bigger picture. Just because a shipwreck can happen anywhere, doesn't change the thematic intent of the Pirate's Lair shipwreck, it's mast/crow's nest, Jolly Roger flags, Lafitte's Tavern, singing pirates, or cannons.

                  Originally posted by techskip View Post
                  Quite the contrary I am not forgetting anything... but it seems you forgot to discount the face characters (which again was the point of my initial post). According to your comment Tom and Huck didn't build the building, or salvage the crow's nest, so who knows where it came from. Pirate swords... makes sense if you are playing Pirates and find Pirate stuff from inside the caves (only place hidden which has actual Pirate references that are not implied by the movie). As to that area "being quite small" it wouldn't be the first time Disney expanded on a small portion of a book or movie.
                  [bold mine] Yeah - we all know where it came from. It came from the thematically out-of-place Pirates of the Caribbean from the neighboring land in the park, which totally destroys a whole slew of themes, temporal boundaries, and backstories.

                  Originally posted by techskip View Post
                  All of Adventureland was converted over when Indy was tossed in except Swiss. Because Swiss was empty, they didn't care... technically it didn't even match Jungle... but it was basically grandfathered in because Walt had a hand in it... same as Pirates... We can also talk about Tomorrowland Station... great facade as you board an antique train (definately antique when you consider the theme of Tomorrowland). Steve will likely bring up the two trains, two stations comment which Walt used to preserve his theme... be even he eventually broke down and allowed the trains to be trains and stop at every station... I am not sure when Tomorrowland Station was constructed, but when it was that right there was a break in theme.

                  We can debate to no end but the point is it's an island, it fits as an island be it Mississippi or Missouri or New Orleans... it's an island. You would have a better chance arguing about the construction of the fort then about some old building which do match and a shipwreck from an ill fated ship caught in a storm.
                  I don't know why Swiss would need to match the Jungle Cruise. They're two separate attractions. The attractions need to match the theme of the land - inside and out - and they do. Attractions aren't required to match up thematically and story-wise with their neighboring attractions. The only place that really happens is in the toon neighborhood in Mickey's Toon Town.

                  As for the steam train -- doesn't the steam train effectively work as a time travel mechanism? How else would it get from turn-of-the-century Main Street USA to 1860s New Orleans Square/Frontierland and then to the World of Tomorrow? Perhaps Steve can clear this up for us...

                  Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                    I found TSI and PL-TSI boring, when I went i saw what there was to see, saw kids climbing on the show peices and trees, left in 15 minutes after arriving.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                      Originally posted by techskip View Post
                      My comment has been and continues to be that without the Pirates there, the island is simply and island and it's inhabitants left to interpretation.
                      And this is bad...how?

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                        Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
                        And this is bad...how?
                        I think that's his point, Steve. If the singing pirates and Jack Sparrow aren't on the Island, then Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island can be left up to interpretation.

                        But I disagree, that that would be possible. The Island still has overt references to the Pirates of the Caribbean film trilogy -- most notably Dead Man's Grotto which features Captain Jack Sparrow's signature on signage, Davy Jones' chest, Pintel and Ragetti, and references to Elizabeth Swann and Will Turner. Additionally, Will Turner's Blacksmith shop is still there, as well at the shipwreck, where Davy Jones makes his presence known. Also, the bone cage is an iconic part of the Dead Man's Chest film.

                        Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island, even without face characters, cannot be left to interpretation because Disney spells out the interpretation for you via the numerous Pirates of the Caribbean film references.

                        Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                          Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
                          Tom Sawyer Island isn't meant to be the "Jackson's Isand" of Twain's stories. In those storeis, the island is deserted. There is no fort, no treehouse, no rocks. There is a cave mentioned on the mainland--which is the inspiration for the Disney caves.

                          Disney's Tom Sawyer Island is meant to suggest Jackson's Island, but is more expansive--hence the fort (what once was a perfectly respectable mid-1800s fort), the caves and the treehouse.
                          So there is no basis for the fort, or the rock formations in the book to begin with...

                          Skip can keep trying, but there really is no way to shoehorn the 17th century Caribbean Pirate theme into it's American Frontier surroundings. The Lafitte arguent is weak--Lafitte was no more a pirate in the Caribbean sense than Blackbeard is a 19th century U.S. Cavalry officer.
                          Shoehorn.. seriously now you aren't still focusing on that... I am saying and have been saying that without the face characters the theme is up in the air as either Tom or Pirates... the definitive mark was the Pirate face characters and without them it falls apart. As I have continually pointed out there isn't a great deal that can be seen from the outside... it's within the caves themselves. I am saying that the theme of TSI and the theme of PL are one and the same without the Pirates running around.

                          And we're not realy talking a 19th century Swiss treehouse next to a 1930s river launch company. In that example, there is a spacial separation as well as temporal one. However, there is no spacial separation when 17th century Pirates exist inside an area meant to represent the 1830s American frontier.
                          So how do we explain a 17th century Pirate inside 1860's NOS? Remember to point out that the facade looks good from the outside...
                          "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

                          sigpic

                          "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                            I think it's important, also, to understand the name of the attraction:

                            Tom Sawyer Island wasn't Tom Sawyer's Island. The name of the Island indicates that it was named after Tom Sawyer, which, in a theme park setting, would arguably imply inspiration from Tom Sawyer, not ownership. It is not "Tom Sawyer's Island."

                            Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island, on the other hand, indicates ownership. The Pirates have claimed ownership of their lair on Tom Sawyer Island, and most likely ownership over the entire Island.

                            This isn't Tom Sawyer's Pirate Lair. This is Pirate's Lair; the lair of pirates... Not even the name of the attraction supports the supposed theme of Tom Sawyer pretending to be a pirate.


                            The only place Tom Sawyer does pretend to be a pirate is in his tree house -- which is named, if I'm not mistaken, "Tom and Huck's Treehouse" -- and that name indicates clear ownership by Tom and Huck -- and its the only place on the Island that is their's

                            Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                              Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                              So your argument regarding the Blue Bayou is one of personal preference. You simply don't like the plantation dinner party theme and the chatter and commotion that comes with it. It isn't a matter of poor theming -- it's a matter of your personal preference. It's fine that you don't like it -- but that doesn't mean it's improperly themed.
                              Please read my quote again for clairfication. I am not against a dinner scene or the clatter of dinner, or the music that would accompany a period dinner. I am against the jarring effect of seeing modern people eating outside an old southern mansion while I am supposed to be in 1860 NOS... if they masked the people everything would fit!


                              Yeah, except inside the shipwreck Davy Jones specifically talks about it being a pirate ship. And the name of the attraction: "Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island" would imply that pirates are involved with this shipwreck.
                              Bold mine... can't be seen or heard from the outside when you are viewing from the river...

                              You're looking at bits and pieces of the island and separating them from the bigger picture. Just because a shipwreck can happen anywhere, doesn't change the thematic intent of the Pirate's Lair shipwreck, it's mast/crow's nest, Jolly Roger flags, Lafitte's Tavern, singing pirates, or cannons.
                              Once again bold mine... no pirates present...

                              [bold mine] Yeah - we all know where it came from. It came from the thematically out-of-place Pirates of the Caribbean from the neighboring land in the park, which totally destroys a whole slew of themes, temporal boundaries, and backstories.[/quote] And we know where it came from how... because a Pirate face character told us... what happens when they aren't around?

                              I don't know why Swiss would need to match the Jungle Cruise. They're two separate attractions. The attractions need to match the theme of the land - inside and out - and they do. Attractions aren't required to match up thematically and story-wise with their neighboring attractions. The only place that really happens is in the toon neighborhood in Mickey's Toon Town.
                              Swiss, Indy, and Jungle were in the same land and therefore according to the logic in this thread, should be in the same time period. The period between Jungle and Swiss was minimum 50 to 75 years if not more.

                              As for the steam train -- doesn't the steam train effectively work as a time travel mechanism? How else would it get from turn-of-the-century Main Street USA to 1860s New Orleans Square/Frontierland and then to the World of Tomorrow? Perhaps Steve can clear this up for us...
                              What appearance gives any indication of a time traveling machine? In appearance it is a steam train. You would be assuming it is a time travel machine in order to make it fit... which according to the logic you set for it should not be open to interpretation... same as the island according to your logic.
                              "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

                              sigpic

                              "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                Originally posted by techskip View Post
                                So there is no basis for the fort, or the rock formations in the book to begin with...
                                No, there isn't. Does this present some kind of thematic problem?

                                Originally posted by techskip View Post
                                Shoehorn.. seriously now you aren't still focusing on that... I am saying and have been saying that without the face characters the theme is up in the air as either Tom or Pirates... the definitive mark was the Pirate face characters and without them it falls apart. As I have continually pointed out there isn't a great deal that can be seen from the outside... it's within the caves themselves. I am saying that the theme of TSI and the theme of PL are one and the same without the Pirates running around.
                                I disagree entirely. You simply would not find this kind of nautical paraphenalia in a mid-Missippi river Missouri island in the 1840s

                                Originally posted by techskip View Post
                                So how do we explain a 17th century Pirate inside 1860's NOS? Remember to point out that the facade looks good from the outside...
                                Where is this 17th century pirate in New Orleans Square you speak of. Wandering the courtyards, I've yet to encounter one (I thankfully missed the silly Jack Sparrow impersonators).

                                Comment

                                Ad Widget

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X