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In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

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  • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

    Originally posted by techskip View Post
    You are more then qualified to join in... we always need a well placed fart joke to lighten the mood!
    LOL!

    I have been accused of derailing one too many times. I'm a kinder, gentler MiceChatter.

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    • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

      Originally posted by techskip View Post
      I look at the pieces because without the Pirates the pieces are incomplete and falter, allowing for a range of interpretations... it is specifically the visual effect of live Pirates that complete the theme as a Pirate Island. Notice how long it took to get to that point... every post the Pirates themselves were highlighted... and when asked what represented the Pirates that was not interchangeable there was silence. The Pirates make the scene, not the other way around, without them the scene can easily be interpreted differently. The added fact that everything is well hidden from Frontierland, including the sign, further indicates WDI's attempt to make it a fluid theme so when the Pirate fad faded they could change it over without complications. Now is when that changeover can occur. If you hadn't seen the movie or read the map, and you were visiting with the notion that it was Tom's Island (which it has been since day 1) then it would not be a stretch to think of Tom and Huck playing pirates in the shipwrecks.

      The added comment is that this overlay brought so much more to a neglected island. They convinced Disney to open the piggy bank but ensured that the changes would work with or without Pirates... bravo to WDI for actually planning ahead on that one.
      I understand what your point is -- I just completely disagree with it. Just because Jack Sparrow or the Bilge Rats aren't on the Island doesn't mean the Island is any less piratey. That's like saying without the Mayor of Main Street or the Dapper Dans that Main Street isn't really a bustling turn-of-the-century midwestern town. Or that Mickey's Toon Town isn't really the home of Mickey and his Toon friends when they aren't walking around it.

      Pirate's Lair - with or without Pirate face characters - is still Pirate's Lair.

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      • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

        Originally posted by Datameister View Post
        That's always going to be a problem with any part of the park. We have to excuse seeing modern tourists in the future, in exotic jungles, in a quaint European village...that's just an unfortunate necessity in the theme park business.
        New Rule-All guests must wear themeaticly appropriate clothing when visiting Disneyland.

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        • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

          Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
          I understand what your point is -- I just completely disagree with it. Just because Jack Sparrow or the Bilge Rats aren't on the Island doesn't mean the Island is any less piratey. That's like saying without the Mayor of Main Street or the Dapper Dans that Main Street isn't really a bustling turn-of-the-century midwestern town. Or that Mickey's Toon Town isn't really the home of Mickey and his Toon friends when they aren't walking around it.
          Actually PL is much more subdued then MS or TT... in both MS and TT it is an overbearing theme while in PL it is a great deal more subtle allowing it to blend either way.
          "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

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          "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

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          • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

            Originally posted by HMF View Post
            New Rule-All guests must wear themeaticly appropriate clothing when visiting Disneyland.
            Changes of clothes are required for all different lands on the itinerary, too.

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            • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

              Originally posted by Datameister View Post
              Changes of clothes are required for all different lands on the itinerary, too.
              To enter Tomorrowland you must wear our official Evil Polyester Costumes Of Torture which can be found in the dressing room on your right

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              • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                Originally posted by techskip View Post
                Actually PL is much more subdued then MS or TT... in both MS and TT it is an overbearing theme while in PL it is a great deal more subtle allowing it to blend either way.
                Pirates Lair isn't the theme of the area.

                Or are you suggesting it is?

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                • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                  Originally posted by Steve DeGaetano View Post
                  Pirates Lair isn't the theme of the area.

                  Or are you suggesting it is?
                  Are you saying that pirates aren't the new theme of the Island, Steve?

                  I would argue that they are, no matter how flawed, incomplete, or incompatible that theme is.

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                  • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                    Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                    Are you saying that pirates aren't the new theme of the Island, Steve?

                    I would argue that they are, no matter how flawed, incomplete, or incompatible that theme is.
                    I believe Steve was referring to the theme of Frontierland in relation to the theme of Pirates Lair. What I am pointing out is that Pirates Lair, without the actual Pirates walking around, is subtle enough to blend between Frontierland and New Orleans producing the best of both worlds in the imagination of the little ones!
                    "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

                    sigpic

                    "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

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                    • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                      My 2 cents and no I didn't read the whole thread, this is just my thought

                      I remember the island as a kid, it was packed due to all the great rocks like the teeter totter and the fort. And I remember it as a teen, mostly empty due to no rocks, no one cared about Tom Sawyer and that is not because we were unexposed, in the early 90's they made a few movies, one with Elijah Wood the other with Jonathan Taylor Thomas, seen them both, liked them both, not enough to get me interested....so empty i believe due to the lack of "cool" stuff to do and look at. I also remember it from last fall after pirates were added and fun stuff was put back in, packed again.

                      Pirates got kids interested in something they otherwise would yawn at. Having somewhere for them to run around and be kids is good, and if they are interested, it's even better. I think itwas a positive addition that will last for a little while longer. Once it is no longer relevent, then they can change the overlay. Nothing was changed majorly (except the fort, but that's not the pirates fault), so everything can be shaken up on the next refurb.

                      Think of it this way, sure the island is full of time inappropriate but regionally appropriate pirates that made it the place to be again....at least they didn't make it "Hannah Montana's Island" or "High School Musical at Tom Sawyer's Island".

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                      • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                        Originally posted by techskip View Post
                        I believe Steve was referring to the theme of Frontierland in relation to the theme of Pirates Lair. What I am pointing out is that Pirates Lair, without the actual Pirates walking around, is subtle enough to blend between Frontierland and New Orleans producing the best of both worlds in the imagination of the little ones!
                        Ah, okay.

                        You're far too forgiving of the thematic wrongdoings of Pirate's Lair. I hardly think it's subtle when you look at the attraction as a whole, and nor do I think any supposed subtlety is enough to excuse its inappropriateness in Frontierland. But that's just me.

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                        • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                          I really don't get the bone cage. That's not pirates hiding out along the Mississippi offset by a hundred years, that's cannibals from across the world!

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                          • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                            Originally posted by Lore View Post
                            I really don't get the bone cage. That's not pirates hiding out along the Mississippi offset by a hundred years, that's cannibals from across the world!
                            Not much of the Island is about pirates hiding out along the Mississippi. The Island is thematically inconsistent with itself.

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                            • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                              The bone cage is absolutely an abomination. There's no reasonable explanation for it, aside from the fact that marketing loves tie-ins like that, and so do some of the guests.

                              The rest of the stuff...I dunno, like I said, it's just that ideally, every element of a theme park would reinforce the theme of its attraction, land, and entire park, in order of decreasing importance. Obviously, PLOTSI is pretty consistent within itself, and it does just fine within the very vague theme of Disneyland (something like optimistic-but-sometimes-perilous escapism with a flavor of American patriotism). But it doesn't do anything to further the theme of Frontierland. Whether or not it can be accepted as not breaking the theme is a bit beside the point.

                              If you ask me, PLOTSI gets a C- in the category of thematic appropriateness. A C- is a passing grade (usually), but that doesn't make it on par with an A.

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                              • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                Originally posted by Datameister View Post
                                The bone cage is absolutely an abomination. There's no reasonable explanation for it, aside from the fact that marketing loves tie-ins like that, and so do some of the guests.

                                The rest of the stuff...I dunno, like I said, it's just that ideally, every element of a theme park would reinforce the theme of its attraction, land, and entire park, in order of decreasing importance. Obviously, PLOTSI is pretty consistent within itself, and it does just fine within the very vague theme of Disneyland (something like optimistic-but-sometimes-perilous escapism with a flavor of American patriotism). But it doesn't do anything to further the theme of Frontierland. Whether or not it can be accepted as not breaking the theme is a bit beside the point.

                                If you ask me, PLOTSI gets a C- in the category of thematic appropriateness. A C- is a passing grade (usually), but that doesn't make it on par with an A.
                                If you ask me, it gets an F in the category of thematic appropriateness. An B+ in presentation, but an F in thematic appropriateness.

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                                • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                  Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                                  If you ask me, it gets an F in the category of thematic appropriateness. An B+ in presentation, but an F in thematic appropriateness.
                                  An F in thematic appropriateness would be if they turned TSI into Cars Land. PLOTSI (rather indirectly) ties into an attraction that's practically the heart and soul of the land, even if its own appropriateness is subject to debate. That's enough for me to give it a passing grade, but only barely, because regardless of whether or not it actively breaks theme, it definitely doesn't strengthen it.

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                                  • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                    Originally posted by Datameister View Post
                                    Changes of clothes are required for all different lands on the itinerary, too.
                                    What's the "thematically appropriate" dress code for Critter Country?

                                    -- Barry
                                    God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

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                                    • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                      Originally posted by Datameister View Post
                                      An F in thematic appropriateness would be if they turned TSI into Cars Land. PLOTSI (rather indirectly) ties into an attraction that's practically the heart and soul of the land, even if its own appropriateness is subject to debate. That's enough for me to give it a passing grade, but only barely, because regardless of whether or not it actively breaks theme, it definitely doesn't strengthen it.
                                      Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island resides in Frontierland, not New Orleans Square. So Pirate's Lair doesn't relate to any attraction in the "heart" of the land in which it resides.

                                      Even if Tom Sawyer Island was created to be part of New Orleans Square, the Pirate's Lair additions would still be inappropriate because (as it's been discussed already in this thread) Pirates of the Caribbean utilizes show elements to transport guests to a different location and time period. Pirate's Lair does not. So how do themes present in a New Orleans Square attraction make sense in Frontierland?

                                      Simply put, they don't.

                                      Thematic appropriateness of Pirate's Lair = F

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                                      • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                        Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                                        Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island resides in Frontierland, not New Orleans Square. So Pirate's Lair doesn't relate to any attraction in the "heart" of the land in which it resides.

                                        Even if Tom Sawyer Island was created to be part of New Orleans Square, the Pirate's Lair additions would still be inappropriate because (as it's been discussed already in this thread) Pirates of the Caribbean utilizes show elements to transport guests to a different location and time period. Pirate's Lair does not. So how do themes present in a New Orleans Square attraction make sense in Frontierland?

                                        Simply put, they don't.

                                        Thematic appropriateness of Pirate's Lair = F
                                        Fair enough. I guess I've been listening too much to those who insist NOS is still just a subsidiary of Frontierland - not a theory I consciously subscribe to, mind you, but I think that sort of thinking snuck in there. My bad. Anyway, I'll fall back on the fact that all these piratical elements could simply be in the imagination of Tom and Huck; they're envisioning their own pirates' lair on the same island, an island whose location and time period are appropriate (mostly) to Frontierland. Again, it still does NOTHING to strengthen the theme, but if you're careful enough about it, you can sorta justify it as not being completely out of place, which is why I can't give it an outright F. It's a lot closer to being right than the Cars Land On Tom Sawyer Island example I gave or if there were a large UFO sitting in front of Laffite's Tavern or what have you. Those would be the genuine Fs, because there's no way you can justify those without completely losing all credibility.

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                                        • Re: In Defense of Pirate's Lair on Tom Sawyer Island

                                          Originally posted by Datameister View Post
                                          but if you're careful enough about it, you can sorta justify it as not being completely out of place, which is why I can't give it an outright F.
                                          I'd give the bone cage at least a D. You'd have to imagine Pirates visiting cannibles and then loading it onto their ship and then transporting it to the Mississippi river a hundred years earlier. I really don't know why they'd do that. Heck, Disney might as well move those California Letters to the island so tourists have more stuff to take pictures near. The bone cage is completely random and completely off theme. Alas, the new yard lumber fort isn't much better

                                          Poor Tom Sawyer Island, flunking theme 101.

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