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  • #61
    I honestly think that modern Americans aren't on the edge of their seat waiting for the next big thing in technology anymore as compared to Americans of the 50s and 60s. Technology is developing so quickly nowadays that creating technologically advanced futuristic attractions for Tomorrowland isn't logical anymore because the attractions would become dull and stale quicker because society is quickly advancing everyday.

    Sorry to break it to you, but Walt's traditional view into the future theme of Tomorrowland isn't a realistic option for Disney anymore. Having to replace attractions and redesign the land over and over again isn't logical financially and would be increasingly difficult to do considering they'd have to aim to please the audience 100% every time. And we all know that Disney has it's misses with attractions.

    The reason other lands such as Adventureland, Fantasyland, and New Orleans Square have stood the test of time is because they don't necessarily need to be updated as often as Tomorrowland does because they're essentially frozen in time. Attractions like Indiana Jones Adventure wont need to be ripped out to make way for new, futuristic attractions like attractions in Tomorrowland would.

    I think that Disney was trying to gain control of the issue of having to update the land all the time by changing it to "The Tomorrow That Never Was" theme. That theme was essentially "frozen in time" like the theme in Adventureland is and could have attractions added to it during time but would still work with the theme (i.e.: like the way Indiana Jones Adventure was added and still fits the theme but does not need to be updated like Tomorrowland attractions would need to be).

    Originally posted by ModHatter
    The future that never was failed as a concept because it did nothing to think beyond our lifetime. It deliberately chose to be Yesterland. Instead of Tomorrowland 2055, they chose Jules Verne's Tomorrowland 1955
    I still believe that the Tomorrow That Never Was theme was a good idea and I still feel that the concept art and whole idea behind it was appealing and very promising (IMHO). It wasn't the theme that caused the demise of Tomorrowland by any means. It was the mistakes of management and budget cuts killed the land. The Imagineers' complete vision was traded for a watered-down, lackluster version of the Imagineers' vision because of improper management (Eisner) and major budget cuts.

    I think even now, if the Tomorrow That Never Was theme was brought back full force, properly budgeted, properly maintained, and properly executed it could be successful. However, I don't think many would agree with me and feel that it needs to be completely removed. And I wouldn't mind it being removed, either.

    However, I do have an issue with trying to mix in a new color scheme with the old bronze colors so the major bronze hardware still matches. From the photos I've seen it looks tacky so far and isn't being properly executed. And because of this, I fear a repeat performance of the unattractive design of Tomorrowland 1998, just with some blue, silver, and a dash of purple added to the bronze.

    But I guess I need to see it in person before I really judge it...

    Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

    Comment


    • #62
      Creating a Tomorrowland that is deliberately stale will not keep Tomorrowland from feeling stale. It simply means that instead of getting a few good years out of the place, the land is obsolete even before it opens.

      Dated optimism will still appeal to more people than pessimism, and the attendance figures for 98 and 99 back that up.
      See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
      78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

      "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

      "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

      -- Walt Disney

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by ModHatter
        Creating a Tomorrowland that is deliberately stale will not keep Tomorrowland from feeling stale. It simply means that instead of getting a few good years out of the place, the land is obsolete even before it opens.
        I never said that Tomorrowland should be created deliberately stale. Tomorrowland 1998 was never designed to be deliberately stale. It ended up being "stale" because of improper budgets causing poor execution in creation/building. Are you saying that every other land at Disneyland is deliberately stale because theyre created without the intention of being updated every several years? How come Tomorrowland has to be any different? How come Tomorrowland couldnt have used the TTNW theme changing the land to a land like New Orleans Square or even Toon Town that doesnt need to be changed often or a lot but is still fun and interesting? The only reason Tomorrowland's change into a "frozen-in-time" land (as I like to call it) like all the other lands in Disneyland didn't work was because the transition and re-creation was not carried out to its full potential as the Imagineers had envisioned.

        I really don't think that the TTNW theme was supposed to be "deliberately stale" as you insist.

        Originally posted by ModHatter
        Dated optimism will still appeal to more people than pessimism, and the attendance figures for 98 and 99 back that up.
        If Tomorrowland had never been changed prior to 1998, I think people would probably be relatively bored with the land. The optimistic version of Tomorrowland was meant to change and progress with the times, so I think people would have gotten irritated with it after a while. That's not to say, however, that people didn't get tired of the new Tomorrowland either as we all can see. However, people haven't gotten tired of the same old Adventurelands and Fantasylands, so I think if the TTNW theme had been carried out properly it would have held as its own just like the other lands in Disneyland without needing to be updated.

        I've said it so many times before and I'll say it again.. I think the reason the TTNW theme didn't work is simply because of the budget cuts that cost the true vision of the Imagineers to be watered-down.

        Also, the "Dated Optimism" of Old Tomorrowland left before 1998 and 1999. 1998 was when the "deliberately stale" (as you put it) Tomorrowland came to the park.

        Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

        Comment


        • #64
          Tomorrow that Never Was is stale. That's the intent of the design.

          As has been said, areas like Frontierland and Adventureland are dated by design too. They are frozen in time. But, for instance, creating a ride in Adventureland as it exists now, about the adventure of proving the you won't sail off the edge of the earth, would be stale.

          Turning Tomorrowland into Yesterland made it stale. Not because of budgets, but because of laziness and lack of creativity.

          Again, you have to look at the explicit message of Tomorrow frozen in time. What happens when you freeze Tomorrow in time? It becomes today, and then yesterday. And instead of picking, say, 2055 to freeze in time, the designers picked a Victorian Tomorrow to freeze in time, thus making it about 100 years out of date the day it opened.

          Now, if they want to go ahead and use the Discovery Bay idea as the Frontierland expansion, fine. As a transition from the Frontier to Fantasy, that's a fine thematic fit.

          Ultimately, I don't think people stopped going to Tomorrowland because the theme was out of date. they stopped going because the RIDES didn't hold their interests. Space Mountain is the E ticket, it's not radically different from Matterhorn, and considering it is a contemporary of the first inverted loop coasters, it doesn't have all that much going for it. America Sings was a show, and I don't know many shows that last as long as it did. Mission to Mars didn't think far enough ahead. It stubbornly held onto the idea of rockets even after space shuttles had captured the imagination. CircleVIsion was interesting enough, but then again, on a day in the park, who wants to stand in line to... stand in a theater?

          Realistically, the problem with Tomorrowland was the same thing many complain about with DCA. It has had a penchant for shows instead of rides. When Star Tours and EO were opened, you had the following mix:

          Rides
          Space Mountain
          Submarine Voyage
          Autopia
          Rocket Jets

          Ride/Show/Exhibit Hybrids
          Star Tours
          PeopleMover
          Monorail
          Skyway

          Shows
          CircleVision
          Captain EO
          America Sings
          Mission to Mars

          Yes, that's a lot of attractions for one land. But when you look at how many are shows, which naturally have a shorter lifespan, of course you're going to need to update things much faster than you would most other lands. But what did TL 98 do? They took out one show and one hybrid and made it a suped-up hybrid that wasn't sound. Skyway was already gone. A closed show was downgraded to an exhibit(!), and another was made into a restaurant.

          The solution is really going to boil down to more rides, and especially more E and D tickets. The real estate is obviously there. The theme wasn't broke, so they shouldn't've tried to fix it.
          See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
          78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

          "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

          "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

          -- Walt Disney

          Comment


          • #65
            I know this should go into the TL revival forum but I was just thinking about a new type of ride, it would be themed after a "space elevator" which is a popular scifi concept in many books about a geosyncronus tether of a station or a captive meteor rock. In my latest book read "Blue Mars" the cable was about 10 meters in width of a carbon diamond lattice that theoretically was unbreakable, the cable went out into space over 30,000 miles and elevators ran up and down it at extreme high speeds often taking a week of transit time.

            So much for the explanation of the idea...it eliminates earth to orbit shuttles thus opening the way to affordable space travel, another space elevator was at Mars though a bit shorter.

            A themed ride of traveling at high speed acceleration to a space station. weightlessness, and then a return trip to earth.

            Yes the Hulk. Maliboomer ride would be perfect for this, difference is instead of a 6 Flags Jumpshot ride you have a themed illusion of adventure.

            I wish and wish there were some sort of imagineering genius left at Disney instead of the low cost walmart rides and shows we have seen, the subs to me really need a big focal point of attention as things like monorails are hohum unless they are maglevs traveling near the speed of sound but I think there is a promise of exploiting an idea and borrow something from Universal...the subs become part of a future "Waterworld", its in the future but not so far from now, greenhouse gasses and other effects have melted the antarctic ice caps,earths seas flood the globe, the ozone layer has broken down over most of the earth, the worlds population seeks to live under the sea.

            On the other hand perhaps it would be better to leave the DL subs alone to a Finding Nemo theme....and wait awhile for a copy of the TDS ride to show up at WDW.
            Micechat member # 98

            TARDIS
            "Time And Relative Dimension In Space."

            Comment


            • #66
              well, rather than present a dystopian Water World, I think Disneyland would be better served to have the Subs as a means of optimizing the earth's resources BEFORE such a cataclysm.

              It's all about tone. You don't want to bum people out. It's sort of like the difference between aspiring to heaven or walking the tightrope over hell.

              Meanwhile, I think it would be easy enough to add a few monitors on the Monorail station, with a "newscast" that highlights all the benefits of the Monorail. Have a traffic report showing major congestion on the freeways, but a graphic shows the Monorail built in the median continuing at 60mph. Another story focuses on a mall breaking ground on a new expansion because enough people have upgraded to Monorail use, and the parking lot is always empty. This means that the mall doubles its revenue, as does the city which collects the taxes. Yet another story could be that Los Angeles has once again seen non-brown sunsets because auto emissions have been drastically cut through expanded use of Monorails.

              Of course, it would be interesting if the Monos and PeopleMover could be rerouted and restructured so that, like in Walt's EPCOT, the two systems are connected, with Monos serving longer-distance commuting and PMs radiating out to cover shorter distances between Mono stops.
              See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
              78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

              "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

              "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

              -- Walt Disney

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by ModHatter
                Tomorrow that Never Was is stale. That's the intent of the design.

                As has been said, areas like Frontierland and Adventureland are dated by design too. They are frozen in time. But, for instance, creating a ride in Adventureland as it exists now, about the adventure of proving the you won't sail off the edge of the earth, would be stale.

                Turning Tomorrowland into Yesterland made it stale. Not because of budgets, but because of laziness and lack of creativity.

                Again, you have to look at the explicit message of Tomorrow frozen in time. What happens when you freeze Tomorrow in time? It becomes today, and then yesterday. And instead of picking, say, 2055 to freeze in time, the designers picked a Victorian Tomorrow to freeze in time, thus making it about 100 years out of date the day it opened.

                Now, if they want to go ahead and use the Discovery Bay idea as the Frontierland expansion, fine. As a transition from the Frontier to Fantasy, that's a fine thematic fit.

                Ultimately, I don't think people stopped going to Tomorrowland because the theme was out of date. they stopped going because the RIDES didn't hold their interests. Space Mountain is the E ticket, it's not radically different from Matterhorn, and considering it is a contemporary of the first inverted loop coasters, it doesn't have all that much going for it. America Sings was a show, and I don't know many shows that last as long as it did. Mission to Mars didn't think far enough ahead. It stubbornly held onto the idea of rockets even after space shuttles had captured the imagination. CircleVIsion was interesting enough, but then again, on a day in the park, who wants to stand in line to... stand in a theater?

                Realistically, the problem with Tomorrowland was the same thing many complain about with DCA. It has had a penchant for shows instead of rides. When Star Tours and EO were opened, you had the following mix:

                Rides
                Space Mountain
                Submarine Voyage
                Autopia
                Rocket Jets

                Ride/Show/Exhibit Hybrids
                Star Tours
                PeopleMover
                Monorail
                Skyway

                Shows
                CircleVision
                Captain EO
                America Sings
                Mission to Mars

                Yes, that's a lot of attractions for one land. But when you look at how many are shows, which naturally have a shorter lifespan, of course you're going to need to update things much faster than you would most other lands. But what did TL 98 do? They took out one show and one hybrid and made it a suped-up hybrid that wasn't sound. Skyway was already gone. A closed show was downgraded to an exhibit(!), and another was made into a restaurant.

                The solution is really going to boil down to more rides, and especially more E and D tickets. The real estate is obviously there. The theme wasn't broke, so they shouldn't've tried to fix it.



                This conceptual art does not look like the Tomorrow That Never Was Tomorrowland was INTENTIONALLY stale.

                Sorry, but this Tomorrowland looks like it's INTENDED to be pretty darn good. It doesn't look INTENTIONALLY stale by any means.

                Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by ModHatter
                  Meanwhile, I think it would be easy enough to add a few monitors on the Monorail station, with a "newscast" that highlights all the benefits of the Monorail. Have a traffic report showing major congestion on the freeways, but a graphic shows the Monorail built in the median continuing at 60mph. Another story focuses on a mall breaking ground on a new expansion because enough people have upgraded to Monorail use, and the parking lot is always empty. This means that the mall doubles its revenue, as does the city which collects the taxes. Yet another story could be that Los Angeles has once again seen non-brown sunsets because auto emissions have been drastically cut through expanded use of Monorails.
                  Wow, ModHatter, nice monorail plug, very well informed. :bow: You wouldn't happen to be part of the monorail society would you?

                  I agree with the submarine idea of pre-apocalyptic ecoconsciousness (I think I made a word), and I am still a little wary as to the effects another pixar theme will have on Disney's always-out-of-reach world of tomorrow. But my main focus on revitalizing Tomorrowland is color. When TL '98 came out, the excitement I felt for its new face was shattered when I found out just what color it was: Gold. Is it just me, or does gold not exactly remind you of all things cutting-edge and futuristic? Put the colors silver and white in your mind. What comes into view? Cleanliness, Efficiency, Speed. Silver Bullet. Platinum. Fast cars. There's a reason almost every car dealer on earth sells cars in silver and white, but rarely issue green and gold: the former colors make your car seem clean fast, almost ethereal. The latter just convey a sense of, well, gaudiness.

                  Another thing the Tomorrowland of, um, tomorrow, needs is something that was lost in '98: Motion. As evidenced, Old Tomorrowland was a city on the go; Rocket Jets, Cars, Peoplemovers, Monorails, Sky Buckets, Trains, Subs, Buildings(!). It made the land bright, a real get-up-and-go place where you could catch a ride to anywhere. What do we have now? A broken light show, Smiling advertisements for Chevron, A barren track, A hat store, an ignored train station (for now), a deserted lagoon, and an exhibit. Tomorrow seems pretty stale.
                  Make something Idiot-Proof, and someone will build a better Idiot.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by ModHatter
                    It's all about tone. You don't want to bum people out. It's sort of like the difference between aspiring to heaven or walking the tightrope over hell.
                    And you don't want to preach either. People don't want to come to a theme park to be told they are evil and are destroying the planet because they prefer to sit in traffic in their car rather than wait at the metro-rail station for 3 train transfers and a bus trip to get to-from work.

                    Better to ignore both the optomistic future (that is very edutainment-y, thus not repeatable) and the pessimistic future and just go with sci-fi and space fantasy. Space Mt., Stat Tours, Buzz, Finding Nemo subs, Chevron cartoon cars, astro orbiter.

                    Stuff that is fun and fancyful and timeless, rather than dealing with either a optimistic future (that grows stale) or a pessimistic post apocolypse.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by dshimel
                      And you don't want to preach either. People don't want to come to a theme park to be told they are evil and are destroying the planet because they prefer to sit in traffic in their car rather than wait at the metro-rail station for 3 train transfers and a bus trip to get to-from work.

                      Better to ignore both the optomistic future (that is very edutainment-y, thus not repeatable) and the pessimistic future and just go with sci-fi and space fantasy. Space Mt., Stat Tours, Buzz, Finding Nemo subs, Chevron cartoon cars, astro orbiter.

                      Stuff that is fun and fancyful and timeless, rather than dealing with either a optimistic future (that grows stale) or a pessimistic post apocolypse.
                      Agreed.

                      Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
                        78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

                        "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

                        "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

                        -- Walt Disney

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Woah, I've only posted twice, and I already have street cred. thanks.
                          Make something Idiot-Proof, and someone will build a better Idiot.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by sir clinksalot
                            It still amazes me with pretty much every Pixar movie having an attraction, or land that they are just letting Pixar go.

                            I mean, think about it:

                            Toy Story 1 & 2 (Buzz Lightyear now in 3 parks)
                            Bugs Live (A Bugs Land, Tough to be a Bug)
                            Monsters Inc (Monsters Inc ride in DCA)
                            Finding Nemo (Subs)

                            Think about the possibilities for the Incredibles, and Cars (Autopia layover).

                            I still cannot fathom the insanity!!!
                            That's "Bug's Life", right?

                            You missed the Talking w/ Crush in the Living Seas in EPCOT.
                            (sorry forgot the real name!)

                            Also I've heard a rumor that the Autopia overlay is in the works already. (It would
                            be earlier, if it wasn't for the Chevron deal). Also they probably want to wait
                            to see how the movie would do.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Mr D
                              I know this should go into the TL revival forum but I was just thinking about a new type of ride, it would be themed after a "space elevator" which is a popular scifi concept in many books about a geosyncronus tether of a station or a captive meteor rock. In my latest book read "Blue Mars" the cable was about 10 meters in width of a carbon diamond lattice that theoretically was unbreakable, the cable went out into space over 30,000 miles and elevators ran up and down it at extreme high speeds often taking a week of transit time.

                              So much for the explanation of the idea...it eliminates earth to orbit shuttles thus opening the way to affordable space travel, another space elevator was at Mars though a bit shorter.

                              A themed ride of traveling at high speed acceleration to a space station. weightlessness, and then a return trip to earth.

                              Yes the Hulk. Maliboomer ride would be perfect for this, difference is instead of a 6 Flags Jumpshot ride you have a themed illusion of adventure.

                              I wish and wish there were some sort of imagineering genius left at Disney instead of the low cost walmart rides and shows we have seen, the subs to me really need a big focal point of attention as things like monorails are hohum unless they are maglevs traveling near the speed of sound but I think there is a promise of exploiting an idea and borrow something from Universal...the subs become part of a future "Waterworld", its in the future but not so far from now, greenhouse gasses and other effects have melted the antarctic ice caps,earths seas flood the globe, the ozone layer has broken down over most of the earth, the worlds population seeks to live under the sea.

                              On the other hand perhaps it would be better to leave the DL subs alone to a Finding Nemo theme....and wait awhile for a copy of the TDS ride to show up at WDW.

                              I think this is a great idea! Here's my take on this... how about enclosing the whole
                              maliboomer type ride so that you're enclosed, show a 180 degree movie (even movies showing in "portholes" looking up AND down) and put the whole ride on maglev (like California Scream'n) so it can accelerate really fast. The video can accentuate the
                              speed going up and down!

                              The other thing that you post prompted is that Disney should put in a 3rd gate in Long Beach and
                              put a maglev between the current park!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by lyd
                                I can see Disney using the Finding Nemo characters for some kind of educational look into the oceans of the world. Now I know this will not appeal to many adults but it would be a great learning tool for kids.
                                Science teacher manta ray guy!

                                Geez that would get old quick, but what a good character

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  I am thinking that most of us have forgotten that te subs were origanally part of FL as well as the boat ride and autopia.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    ill tell you what i haven't forgotten...all those poor souls that lost their high heels on the opening day of disneyland in the hot tar...and all the darn stray cats all over the park! their flippin lazy! gosh!

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by MickeyMan
                                      I am thinking that most of us have forgotten that te subs were origanally part of FL as well as the boat ride and autopia.
                                      I am thinking that this statement is more incorrect than correct.

                                      The first Autopia was a Tomorrowland attraction. Only later did other versions get created in Fantasyland.

                                      Phantom Boats were a Tomorrowland attraction. MBC, on the other hand, was indeed in Fantasyland.

                                      The Subs, Disneyland's first E ticket, was always a Tomorrowland attraction. To my knowledge, the Matterhorn is the only attraction to migrate between these two lands, when borders were shifted around 1971 to have it rest in Fantasyland instead of Tomorrowland. But, at this time, it is important to note that people consider the east queue for the Matterhorn the Tomorrowland side, and many consider the outward path of the Monorail to be an unofficial border for Tomorrowland 67, even though it includes MBC.
                                      See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
                                      78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

                                      "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

                                      "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

                                      -- Walt Disney

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by MasterGracey


                                        This conceptual art does not look like the Tomorrow That Never Was Tomorrowland was INTENTIONALLY stale.
                                        Of course not! It looks pretty damn nice (I LOVE Space Mountain painted that way, what a gorgeous combination) but something happened int he execution, which probably has more to do with our own expectations then what was actually done. but I wish they had gone the "Space Port" route that WDWs TL has.

                                        Gotta admit also, that the sparkly new paint job on TL with the metallic blues and whites looks really nice Like a futuristic update of the original TL.
                                        "Trap Toad will they? HA HA NEVER!"

                                        "Get Hip, Don't get the Dip!"

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by s8ntmark
                                          Of course not! It looks pretty damn nice (I LOVE Space Mountain painted that way, what a gorgeous combination) but something happened int he execution, which probably has more to do with our own expectations then what was actually done. but I wish they had gone the "Space Port" route that WDWs TL has.

                                          Gotta admit also, that the sparkly new paint job on TL with the metallic blues and whites looks really nice Like a futuristic update of the original TL.

                                          I think that was the problem as far as the look of TL; in the concepts, the paint looks metallic and shiny and I think that looked great and would have added a more futuristic feel. And even thought the hues ended up being what they were in the concepts, the whole place lacked that shine. It all looked so dull and earthy, IMO, much more old than new.

                                          I for one, am SO happy that Space mountain is back to being white. I was thrilled to see that on my last trip a few weeks ago!
                                          �In a world filled with hate, we must still dare to hope. In a world filled with anger, we must still dare to comfort. In a world filled with despair, we must still dare to dream. And in a world filled with distrust, we must still dare to believe.� -Michael Jackson


                                          Comment

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