Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

[thejoshualee]

[robotpirates]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

Well, the point of Fastpass is so you don't wait in a long line.

It causes longer standby (non-Fastpass) lines, because they have to let all the FP people through and hold up the standby lines. It's true. Without FP the lines overall would be shorter.

[thejoshualee]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

Well, the point of Fastpass is so you don't wait in a long line.

It causes longer standby (non-Fastpass) lines, because they have to let all the FP people through and hold up the standby lines. It's true. Without FP the lines overall would be shorter.

Perhaps I'm just thick, but I don't see what that has to do with it. The same number of people are going on the ride, right? So how is it a longer wait? Yes, you don't move as fast, but the line itself is shorter. The let the FP people through, but, they had a spot reserved ahead of you, so it would have been the same if the FP people couldn't get a FP and just got in line...

and by non fastpass line I mean an attraction that doesn't use FP. Not the FP line as opposed to the Standby line

[dramaqueen]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

it also causes them to have to route the line in different places in the ride, as well as station more CM's throughout the queue. I know its been said before, but fastpass only works by screwing over the standby people. By using it, you are hedgeing your bets on people being too stupid to read the map and figure out how it works.

They should try turning it off in the off-season- it would save them some money. We were in the park September 18, 19, 22, 23 and we only used fastpass a few times. On Thursday, we didn't use it al all because we didn't need it- the longest line we waited in the entire trip was Peter Pan at 25 minutes. Buzz was a walk-on all week until Friday when the fastpass line held up the standby line, same with Space Mountain.

EDIT- because they have to bisect queues to accomodate two lines instead of one, the standby line becomes much longer and tends to trickle out into the walkways as the queue cannot accomodate the overflow. The ride may be able to handle the same capacity, but the majority of people who use the standby line end up waiting longer. If you are spending less time waiting in line, it stands to reason that someone else has to wait a little bit longer because of it.

[robotpirates]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

http://www.micechat.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5720

Read that thread. It explains a LOT. MelMel's responses are quite helpful, too, considering she's a CM in the park:

On Buzz, FP is at least 75% of ride capacity. On Splash Mountain, approximately 4 of the 7 seats go to FPs. On Big Thunder, about half the train goes to FP. On ToT, an entire floor of the queue is dedicated to FP. On Indy, FP is about 65% of capacity. ... Honestly, when I saw Pirates go from FP to Non FP again, I saw the line length DROP, not raise.

It's really TRUE. All the non-FP rides have shorter lines...

[dramaqueen]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

Pirates is a perfect example. When I was a CM in 2001- I routinely saw the queue for Pirates stretch outside the front gate and well into NOS on a summer afternoon. The wait time would be upwards of 45 minutes. Now there is rarely a long wait and the queue is easily contained in the space that was meant to confine it.

Or remember when Space was in soft openings with no fastpass- the line was never longer than 30 minutes at the most.

[sediment]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

There are several points of view to this issue.
1. Point of view of a guest deciding whether to get in line or get a FastPass. Can get in line now and wait the expected wait or get a FastPass and wait in line less (but do something else in the meantime).
2. Point of view of a guest in the stand-by line. From a specific point in the stand-by queue of a specific attraction, the wait is longer with FastPass available to others than without. This is how some view FastPass as making wait times longer.
3. Point of view of the park in general, over an attraction's whole day of servicing guests. In this POV, the wait time is inconsequential. How many guests through divided by number of hours is the stat to analyze. Whether FastPass is available or not is not part of the exercise. FastPass does not speed up nor slow down the servicing process.

[sediment]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

Does fastpass create longer lines?

It creates a longer wait in the standby line. It creates a shorter wait in the FastPass line.

Yes, the standby line is a longer wait from a specific spot. A lot of the decisions for standing in a line is based on the perceived length of it, which is based on the perceived number of people waiting. FP holders cannot be perceived very well, since they're expected to arrive in an orderly fashion, yet often times do not.

Lets say, for arguments sake...

If FP holders arrived in a exact rate, then I can see how it's possible that the standby line is "shorter" than it would be otherwise (without FastPass option), and with enforcement of the FastPass time window, it's possible that FastPass would be a more equitable system. Problem really starts when FastPass holders come in unexpected lumps. These unexpected lumps are, naturally, complemented by FastPass holders NOT arriving when they're expected to. This second occurrence makes for those times when the FastPass queue is empty, yet the CM is required to keep some FP/Stand-By ratio. This causes some of the abnormal waiting for the stand-by queue. (I've seen this often on Splash, where the CM cannot possibly know how many FP holders are coming up the line unless the CM at the entrance of the attraction is radio-connected to the mixer CM somehow.)

[thejoshualee]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

It creates a longer wait in the standby line. It creates a shorter wait in the FastPass line.

I can see that, but do the two not equal out?

Yes, the standby line is a longer wait from a specific spot. A lot of the decisions for standing in a line is based on the perceived length of it, which is based on the perceived number of people waiting. FP holders cannot be perceived very well, since they're expected to arrive in an orderly fashion, yet often times do not.

The percived lenght? So, they see only a small amount of people ahead of them and they think they can get right on, despite the time wait sign posted at the front? I don't think that counts. Lots of rides have small visible lines with huge invisible lines inside buildings, Indiana Jones for example (before fastpass)

If FP holders arrived in a exact rate, then I can see how it's possible that the standby line is "shorter" than it would be otherwise (without FastPass option), and with enforcement of the FastPass time window, it's possible that FastPass would be a more equitable system. Problem really starts when FastPass holders come in unexpected lumps. These unexpected lumps are, naturally, complemented by FastPass holders NOT arriving when they're expected to. This second occurrence makes for those times when the FastPass queue is empty, yet the CM is required to keep some FP/Stand-By ratio. This causes some of the abnormal waiting for the stand-by queue. (I've seen this often on Splash, where the CM cannot possibly know how many FP holders are coming up the line unless the CM at the entrance of the attraction is radio-connected to the mixer CM somehow.)

I can kind of see this as a valid argument, but if your fastpass ticket saves your place in line, a "ghost" if you will, then does it make the actuall wait time longer if your ghost gets to the front of the line before you do? it made it shorter before because you didn't go on, so it makes it slightly longer later... I think it evens itself out.

As long as CMs keep filling up ride vehicles then the lines aren't longer, again, unless Fastpass makes the ride more popular. The people who go on it would go on it anyway.

[dramaqueen]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

yes, but you are still ignoring the effect turning off fastpass has on wait times- Pirates and Haunted Mansion are excellent examples to wait times decreasing when Fastpass is removed.

[thejoshualee]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

it also causes them to have to route the line in different places in the ride, as well as station more CM's throughout the queue. I know its been said before, but fastpass only works by screwing over the standby people. By using it, you are hedgeing your bets on people being too stupid to read the map and figure out how it works.

I agree that it costs more man power and that they have to route the line in different places, but even if everyone used it, the concept is that it saves your place in line. The line is shorter by one person if that person gets a FP instead of in the line. This is counter-acted by the FP return so the line has the same wait time.

They should try turning it off in the off-season- it would save them some money. We were in the park September 18, 19, 22, 23 and we only used fastpass a few times. On Thursday, we didn't use it al all because we didn't need it- the longest line we waited in the entire trip was Peter Pan at 25 minutes. Buzz was a walk-on all week until Friday when the fastpass line held up the standby line, same with Space Mountain.

I agree with just about everything you way here, but perhaps th reason Buzz and Space Mountain was a longer wait was because Friday had more people? The fast pass system was still working the rest of the week right? The more people in the park the longer the lines are going to be, FP has nothing to do with that.

EDIT- because they have to bisect queues to accomodate two lines instead of one, the standby line becomes much longer and tends to trickle out into the walkways as the queue cannot accomodate the overflow. The ride may be able to handle the same capacity, but the majority of people who use the standby line end up waiting longer. If you are spending less time waiting in line, it stands to reason that someone else has to wait a little bit longer because of it.

Yes they have to wait longer, but in a shorter line. It would equal out if it was a much longer line that was faster moving, right? Same total wait time.

[thejoshualee]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

yes, but you are still ignoring the effect turning off fastpass has on wait times- Pirates and Haunted Mansion are excellent examples to wait times decreasing when Fastpass is removed.

I can see that there was probably a positve corrilation there, but I don't see logicly how it can be caused by the fastpass, unless the fastpass made more people want to ride the ride. A more logical reason may be that the fastpass was is only implimented when the ride had a larger popularity (that is more people ride it per day) As far as the soft opening for Space Mountian... again a positive corrilation, but it wasn't offically open. I visited the park on the day of it's soft opening and didn't know about it till about noon. We waited for 65 minutes.

As far as the Non-fastpass rides having shorter lines, They are less popular and don't need a FP system to help create shorter lines.

(by less popular I'm not talking about less beloved. I'm talking about how many people ride it per day)

by the way, that is a good point.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to dramaqueen again.

[dramaqueen]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

Maybe it just seems longer for the standby people because they have to stand around and watch everyone fly past them

[thejoshualee]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

Maybe it just seems longer for the standby people because the have to stand around and watch everyone fly past them

I think that's the main problem with FASTPASS...

Upon further refection, I think I can see a way the line would be longer: If people get a FP, then get in the regular line, then after..... Perhaps it invites more multiple rides than it would without FP?

Hard to say.
EDIT: Woo Hoo... my 400th post! I'm catching up with you, Dramaqueen :P

[speederscout]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

Joshua, consider the 'real' wait times, instead of the theoretical wait times you reference. As was pointed out before, a lot of the time wasted in line by 'stand by' guests is while CMs wait for FPs to show up. It doesn't matter to someone standing in one place that the total ride capacity is the same when they have to wait twice as long just to get their statistical seat.

We rode Space Mountain twice today after the Mickey Mouse Club event. The line wasn't all that long, but we would have been on the ride in half the time if we hadn't had to stand around outside for so long waiting for FPs to trickle in. Yes, the ride carried the same amount of passengers, but we had to wait twice as long for our opportunity to ride, thus, the line wait time was longer (and it also grew longer physically the longer we stood in one place).

When Buzz first opened we stood in a very long line that moved along at a good clip. But ever since they opened Fast Pass on it we have waited easily twice as long even though the physical line may be only half as long as it was on that first day.

Another thing to consider is the perceived wait time. A very long line might not seem so long if you keep moving. But a short line can be excruciating if you are forced to stand in the same place for 5 to 10 minutes at a time (and yes, this has happened to us on Buzz).

[speederscout]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

Ah, and don't forget when all the FPs suddenly show up at the last minute! AARRGGHH!

[KevinYee]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

I can kind of see this as a valid argument, but if your fastpass ticket saves your place in line, a "ghost" if you will, then does it make the actuall wait time longer if your ghost gets to the front of the line before you do?

You hit it right there. The "ghost" is the problem.

If FASTPASS could be administered in a way that people who were holding a FP coupon were forced via magic to sit on benches, then you are quite right, lines throughout the park would be identical to 1995 (the pre-FP world).

But the ghost. The Ghost!

If my ghost is in line for HMH, and I'm in standby line for Space Mountain, then I'm going to get on two rides for the "price" (the wait time) of just one.

What that really means, to return to your original example, is that the HMH standby line is longer because there are people in this line who SHOULD be standing in line for Big Thunder. Only they have their ghosts doing it.

[speederscout]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

Wow, Kevin, great explaination. Thats a way I've never looked at it before. Now I hate FP even more!

[Disney Analyst]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

When I went in March 2001, my only time I've been to DL... Fastpass was a miracle! It saved so much time! We would grab indiana jones Fp, and be off to explore...

[Chernabog]

Re: Does FASTPASS create longer lines? I cant see how.

FP is great if you're staying all day and you know how to work the system.

It sucks bigtime for us entitled APers who want to get to DL at 4 in the afternoon and still go on Space Mountain. When they did the previews for Space (and there were no fastpasses), the line filled up the entire top of the building but it took like 40 minutes and the damn thing moved at a steady pace.

After FP though, the entire top of the building filled means a 2 hour wait. Kevin explained it best -- there are a TON of fastpass "ghosts" in front of you in line. So even though the ride handles the same amount of people per hour, the standby line goes slower.

For Space, specifically, I waited through the entire top of the building in the heat. NEVER AGAIN. Yes, most of it is somewhat shaded. But the line stands still for long periods of time... because they are too busy letting in 20 Fastpass line people before letting in 3-4 people from the Standby line. I had a really bad sunburn from waiting in that crap. You'd stop in the sun and not move at all for minutes at a time.