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  • #21
    Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

    Originally posted by I.M. Loco View Post
    Agreed. 67-98 TL was vastly superior. I'm not going to say it ended with Star Tours because, in reality, ST fits the theme better the ATIS did.
    I'd say the very best years Tomorrowland had was from 1967 to 1987.

    From 1967 to 1973 .. for 6 years .. all original "World on the move" attractions intact. Then America Sings in 1974 kind of muddled things up .. but still a quality show non the less.

    Then when Space Mountain came along in 1977 .. it really gave TL a huge boost.

    When Captain EO came along in 1986 .. and then Star Tours the following January (1987) ...... Mission To Mars and Peoplemover got slight cosmetic renovations .. and the land was hoping - Through the end of the year.

    1988 .. was the beginning of the end.
    America Sings closed that year .. and the building left to rout for 10 years. Next .... Mission To Mars closed 1992 (another site to add to a growing "ghost town").. and the Space Place restaurant also closed. 1994 ... Skyway kicked the bucket. August 1995 Peoplemover closed a little earlier than planned .. due to breaking down in the middle of the summer.

    So .. I wouldn't count the years - 1988 up to the construuction of TL:98 which began in 1996.

    1988 - 1996: Dilapitaded Ghost Town years.
    Last edited by Tomorrowland_1967; 09-25-2009, 04:34 PM.
    MY SIGNATURE:
    Dear Peoplemover Fans, If you want to see a new attraction that at least mimics the 1967 Peoplemover in a future Tomorrowland remodel, you need to write to the powers-that-be, and let them know. If you don't - Then the next time Tomorrowland is remodeled, you will see a land barren of any "Peoplemover" type attraction.

    Comment


    • #22
      Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

      Originally posted by Datameister View Post
      Please do make that argument...I don't see how that's at all the case, but I could be wrong.
      As I'm sure you're aware, Lucas was inspired by 1930s serials like Flash Gordon when he made Star Wars. He also took a lot from 'ancient' mythology (eg sword fights, knights, evil empires, monsters, wizards, etc.) and placed it all in a futuristic setting.

      Now getting to the retro-future aspect of the design. I am a huge fan of the design work for the original trilogy, and I think part of what makes it so appealing & timeless (as you suggested) is that much of it is rooted in the history. Not only are ships, vehicles, etc. dented, dirty and look like they were built from scrap metal, but they subtly remind of us of things we've seen in the past:

      Comment


      • #23
        Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

        Originally posted by Bob Weaver View Post
        The problem for me with Star Tours is that the Star Wars films take place in the past, not the future, so it has never belonged in Tomorrowland.
        Technically it takes place in the narrator's past...not necessarily our past.

        It's basically a fairy tale from the future...and most fairy tales start with "Once upon a time..." So this one starts with "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..."

        Comment


        • #24
          Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

          All they really need to do is get the PeopleMover running again, move Star Tours out, put Adventure thru Inner Space back in, move the Astro Orbiter to the top of the PeopleMover loading platform where Rocket Jets were, trim down Buzz Lightyear's Astro Blasters, put America the Beautiful back in with a new film though, come up with a new movie to replace Honey I Shrunk the Audience, play Captain EO in that theater once a day to satisfy EO fans, clear out Innoventions and put the Carousel of Progress back in, updated with a show segment of today's technology, knock out the holes from the Matterhorn and get the Skyway going again, close Redd Rockett's Pizza Port, use the remaining pizza crust there for construction walls and durable walkways, and add an E-ticket-level ride based on WALL-E starting in the building the Pizza Port occupies now, and extending into the backstage area as far as necessary for a true E-ticket quality attraction. Journey to Axiom or whatever. Then I'd be happy with Tomorrowland. Only a billion dollars, so what? Mostly it's just reversing the decisions of the last 25 years.

          Comment


          • #25
            Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

            Originally posted by Bob Weaver View Post
            The problem for me with Star Tours is that the Star Wars films take place in the past, not the future, so it has never belonged in Tomorrowland. If anywhere in Disneyland, it belongs in Fantasyland, but I would move it over to Hollywood Pictures Backlot.
            Pretty much everything in Tomorrowland right now belongs in Fantasyland.

            But the very nature of the land has changed. It has gone from presenting one singular and realistic view of the future (from a chronological standpoint) to multiple visions of the future from multiple times.

            At least that was the idea with Tomorrowland 98 which I think was far more coherent and made far more sense from a thematic standpoint than just putting Buzz Lightyear and Nemo in there.

            The 1967 design for Tomorrowland was elegant and futuristic - and doesn't seem dated to me because that type of city never came into being in the "real world." The water fountains where the planters are now, the PeopleMover gliding by silently, it was really elegant and beautiful especially at night. I was at Tomorrowland yesterday and it seems like a discarded junk heap of failed ideas, not the sleek and elegant "city of possibilities" that it once seemed.
            I don't remember there being any water fountains as part of the Tomorrowland 67 design.

            Aside from that, I have mixed feelings about the TL 67 design. I have never found that space to be very inviting at all. It has gotten better since Tomorrowland 98 (the pavers and more planters), but the original Tomorrowland 67 was this big flat open space covered in slurry coating that reminded me of the asphalt of a playground. There were no trees and due to the "architecture" they had to keep the sight lines for everything open (which meant no shade).

            Tomorrowland, just like Paradise Pier was more of a night time experience, because if anyone tried to venture over there during the day they would be fried on the sidewalk.

            I think when all was said and done I would have preferred Eisner's "Montana" Tomorrowland. I would like to see a space that is comforting and inviting rather than an architectural showpiece. Fill the place up with tress, put up shade canopies and block off all those sight lines.

            Comment


            • #26
              Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

              Originally posted by timbabbcomedian View Post
              Technically it takes place in the narrator's past...not necessarily our past.

              It's basically a fairy tale from the future...and most fairy tales start with "Once upon a time..." So this one starts with "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..."
              agree on your Star Tours analogy. i get it that Bob doesnt like Star Tours, he has said that consistently but i just cant agree that Star Tours doesnt belong in Tomorrowland because the movie starts with "A long time ago in a galaxy far far away..." that seems like such a weak technicality to me. Star Tours is about interplanetary space travel. We arent doing that on Earth yet, so that IS a futuristic idea. But that's ok Bob, Im not trying to convince you otherwise. if you cant stand it, you cant stand it.

              Also, i love the pic of Euro Disney's version of TL. i was there the first several years when it opened. I loved it because it had more potential of not getting dated so fast and it was so different.

              When Disneyland's 1998 version of TL opened i was so excited. i loved the look because it reminded me of Paris... but sadly when Rocket Rods tanked and time wore on, i agree it flatlined. BUT i still do like the rocks out front (taking cover from mice chatters getting ready to throw those rocks at me) i also miss Space Mountain being painted. that was great. back to white is boring.
              Last edited by jasonryan106; 09-25-2009, 06:44 PM.

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              • #27

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                • #28
                  Re: Tomorrowland: Tomorrow?

                  I should change my moniker to Jr. Imagineer.............. although I think THAT's taken.........

                  I've never had a problem with Star Tours......... it IS futuristic in a way despite it's happening in a galaxy "a long time ago".... and STII looks to be a good attraction - let's save our disdain until it actually appears - how many of us were really that bummed when it replaced ATIS (which I ONLY used to make out with my dates on...........). It was a tired attraction that was overtaken by modern day science...........

                  I thought the execution of Star Tours was pretty good - although recently I noticed the overhead baskets of replacement parts are now forgotten, yet it added to the theme (which so many people complain about) of a space port. Star Tours II is coming, in the building it presently occupies - let's leave the editorials until it actually arrives - I (for one) actually enjoy Star Tours (and it is a good replacement for ATIS!). Star Tours IS with us (and will remain so) .... so what would you do with the rest of TL?

                  I'm all for gutting Starcade, HISTA, R2P2, AND "Innovations" with the associated Skyway installation to "rennovate" Tommorowland! But I'd mostly like something to occupy the abandoned PM tracks - I'm open to suggestion (Tron? The Incredibles?) What do YOU suggest?

                  SOMEONE has suggested that the food service for Plaza Inn, R2P2 and the CM restaurant be combined into one kitchen - if R2P2 was moved to where the Starcade is now, I'm curious as to how food service would be effected if the three were combined backstage........... How much room is there backstage to do something like this?

                  Tommorowland Terrace NEEDS to stay (I've previously posted how a concession to In & Out Burger with the inevitable Disney mark-up would post HUGE profits both for In & Out AND Disney) as the social and cultural "hub" of TL. It's "almost" one of the "untouchable" concepts from 1967. TT acts as a "hub" of some sort for TL and it would be hard to remove the food service from the "hub" of TL. And yes, the dance floor lends itself to a lot of different promotions.....

                  I do remember (in my youth, dancing at Videopolis and TT to live music - it was GREAT!) And I think TT could be a food service/dance club "hub" of Disneyland (Burgers and Shakes idea of youth - Yeah, In & Out again.....) that doesn't detract from the "future" vision of TL..........

                  Put the "Rockets" back up where they belong....... on TOP of the PM station......... (they are HORRIBLE at the entrance to TL/and the "rocks" are equally HORRIBLE! - creating a huge bottleneck while entering TL!). Do SOMETHING with the Peoplemover tracks - I don't care if it is Tron, the peoplemover or Rocketrods........ or anything else - the lack of SOMETHING up there detracts from TL!. You look up - and NOTHING is there! And the tracks up "there" ARE futuristic!

                  HISTA clearly needs to go! Combine this with the Starcade and you actually have some square footage for Mission Space - the queue for Space Mountain does NOT have to be as large as it is (except for today.......). The space taken up by the queue for SM, Starcade, and R2P2 is easily room enough for Mission Space..............

                  Let alone the square footage taken up by Innoventions.........

                  Another thread addressed moving the diorama behind TL to the space behind the Monorail barn and, between FL and TL - I think this IS a good idea to create space for TL.

                  I'm focussing on the south side of TL because they could "rennovate" the south side with walls similar to what they're doing in DCA and yet leave the north side of TL and SM open to visitors........

                  But I do NOT like BLAB - PIXAR has NOTHING to do with the future - move BLAB to DCA! There is a lot TDA "could" do with TL - question is: Will Tony Baxter fight for it like JL has for DCA?

                  Star Tours is here to stay (hence STII) like it or not, SM will also stay, but what would you do with the space of Starcade, HISTA, R2P2 and Innoventions?

                  Seems to me it's a LOT of space to do something with while WDI keeps STII, SM, FMSV, Autopia, TT and BLAB open to the public......... Concentrate on the south of TL, Fix it, and THEN you can worry about the north side which only includes FMSV, Monorail, BLAB and TT....... You can keep the north side open (with STII and SM) while the south side gets re-developed......

                  THEN you can turn your attention to the north side - NO, I don't like BLAB, FMSV or Autopia....... But I DO like Tomorrowland Terrace as a "hub" of Tomorrowland..........

                  But YES! TL is despertely in need of a refurbishment before EVERY other space in DL!

                  I only hope Tony Baxter does us all proud.....................

                  What are your thoughts....

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

                    Ill be the first to admit when my memory is going, which can certainly be the case, but are you sure you're not thinking of the original tomorroland from 1955? I know there were fountains in that one.

                    In fact from disneylandpostcards.com:

                    Tomorrowland 1955 with fountains.

                    Tomorrowland 1967 with planters.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

                      The planter "bowls" outside TL67's America the Beautiful and ATIS were fountains in the 70's, and I think the early 80's. Water spilled from the bowls onto the rocks. In the 70's my favorite Plaza Inn tables were at the northeast corner of the patio -- close enough to hear the water splashing (along with repeatedly hearing "...for an adventure through the Mighty Microscope" as the PeopleMover cars entered the ATIS show building).

                      I don't remember when the fountains became planters, but I remember being disappointed at the discovery.


                      "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
                      it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
                      together with every variety of recreation and fun,
                      designed to appeal to everyone."

                      - Walt Disney

                      "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
                      - Michael Eisner

                      "It's very symbiotic."
                      - Bob Chapek

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

                        My first visit to DL was in 1965 and I clearly remember when the "new Tomorrowland" of 1967 was opened. I can still see the water fountains and even hear the sound of the water in my mind. Later on the fountains were changed to just planters with plants in them.

                        Here is a photo that backs me up:



                        Study it closely and you can see the running water. In later years the water was removed and the "dishes" became mere planters with plants in them.

                        I also seem to recall that the colors of the lights changed slowly, it wasn't always red and orange, at certain times it cycled through yellow, green, blue and purple, but I can't prove this. That may be difficult or impossible to prove unless color movie film of them was taken at that time. At least with the photo above I have proof that they were indeed originally fountains at the beginning. This is the "new Tomorrowland" of 1967, not the original Tomorrowland of 1955. Thank God I found that photo, now I can sleep better.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Re: Tomorrowland: Tomorrow?

                          Originally posted by sdjeff4sc View Post
                          I'm all for gutting Starcade, HISTA, R2P2, AND "Innovations" with the associated Skyway installation to "rennovate" Tommorowland! But I'd mostly like something to occupy the abandoned PM tracks - I'm open to suggestion (Tron? The Incredibles?) What do YOU suggest?
                          I suggest tearing out the PM tracks and putting in more trees and shade.

                          Putting the PeopleMover and Skyway back is moving backwards. That's not very futuristic at all.

                          How much room is there backstage to do something like this?
                          While it is possible it would be a nightmare to pull off. Star Tours effectively cuts off the starcade from the Plaza Inn and the access road behind Plaza Inn is required.

                          I do remember (in my youth, dancing at Videopolis and TT to live music - it was GREAT!) And I think TT could be a food service/dance club "hub" of Disneyland (Burgers and Shakes idea of youth - Yeah, In & Out again.....) that doesn't detract from the "future" vision of TL..........
                          Maybe they can get Hannah Montana to play at the TLT?

                          HISTA clearly needs to go! Combine this with the Starcade and you actually have some square footage for Mission Space - the queue for Space Mountain does NOT have to be as large as it is (except for today.......). The space taken up by the queue for SM, Starcade, and R2P2 is easily room enough for Mission Space..............
                          I agree that Space doesn't need all the queue, but not for mission space. Mission Space should never be built at Disneyland.

                          Let alone the square footage taken up by Innoventions.........

                          Another thread addressed moving the diorama behind TL to the space behind the Monorail barn and, between FL and TL - I think this IS a good idea to create space for TL.
                          And take out more trees and green space? No thanks.

                          But I do NOT like BLAB - PIXAR has NOTHING to do with the future - move BLAB to DCA! There is a lot TDA "could" do with TL - question is: Will Tony Baxter fight for it like JL has for DCA?
                          Who would Tony be fighting against? John Lasseter?

                          But YES! TL is despertely in need of a refurbishment before EVERY other space in DL!
                          I know this thread is about Tomorrowland, but honestly this isn't even close to the truth. Tomorrowland just needs some shade in the daytime and I bet it would be the most popular land.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

                            Tearing out the PeopleMover track would be yet another giant mistake by the park's management. The PeopleMover track does provide shade. You can still put in many trees without tearing down anything. Putting the PeopleMover and Skyway back in would be giant improvements. Moving Star Tours to DCA would be another giant improvement. Having Hannah Montana or any "stars" perform would be a giant mistake. My sister went to see Bobby Sherman perform at the Tomorowland Terrace about 35 years ago and said it was a disaster - people were standing on the tables, the sound was awful - Tomorrowland is not a place for concerts.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

                              Originally posted by Bob Weaver View Post
                              I also seem to recall that the colors of the lights changed slowly, it wasn't always red and orange, at certain times it cycled through yellow, green, blue and purple, but I can't prove this.
                              FWIW Bob, I also remember the lights changing color.


                              "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
                              it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
                              together with every variety of recreation and fun,
                              designed to appeal to everyone."

                              - Walt Disney

                              "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
                              - Michael Eisner

                              "It's very symbiotic."
                              - Bob Chapek

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

                                Case Study in TL design: Discoveryland



                                Before Visionarium was converted to Buzz Lightyear, Lion King came to Hyperion Theater and Space Mtn: Mission 2 replaced "From Earth to Moon", Discoveryland was a pretty cohesive and extraordinary themed evironment (ignoring the rear annex with Star Tours and 3-D theater).

                                Architecturally, it has not been too badly damaged by the unfortunate changes to a number of the attractions.

                                DL's TL, while architecturally & aesthetically severely damaged (IMO) from the 1998 revamp, has a number of advantages over Discoveryland that could portend hope for its future. Among these are its 2-level design, giving it a more urban, electric feel. Also, it still has the peoplemover track, which hopefully will one day be used again, adding some kinetic energy to land.

                                Gone are the days of completely overhauling a land at one time. So in place of that, the first thing TDA/WDI needs to do is come up with a long-term vision/story of what they think Tomorrowland should be (eg, sci-fi spaceport, real future expo, pixarland, etc.), with an overarching architectural them and storyline. That way, everytime they refurb or add an attraction, the designers can conform to the long term vision.

                                The first step doesn't cost much. Whenever DL gets around to building its next E-ticket, it ought to be something that takes the place of innoventions and cements the long-term vision of Tomorrowland. That could be many years away, so in the mean time, every refurb (Star Tours II) should rebuild the exterior of its section of TL to conform to the vision. And make the vision public so the people have something to look forward to. The tired HISTA is begging for a replacement ASAP... again, take the opportunity to alter the facade to conform. Then add electric cars to Autopia and bring it in line with the theme... then return Peoplemover and bring it in line with the theme.

                                The idea being that over decades, puzzle piece by puzzle piece, TL will no longer be a lost attraction dump, but will move steadily out of the dark towards the light of cohesion, story, beauty...
                                Last edited by RandySavage; 09-25-2009, 08:27 PM.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

                                  Originally posted by Bob Weaver View Post
                                  Tearing out the PeopleMover track would be yet another giant mistake by the park's management. The PeopleMover track does provide shade. You can still put in many trees without tearing down anything.
                                  The PeopleMover track hardly provides any shade and if you added trees or shade to the main promenade of TL, the view from the Peoplemover would be blocked and limited rendering it completely useless.

                                  I would rather see Tomorrowland turn into an actual living space than stay a showcase for the PeopleMover which isn't there.

                                  Putting the PeopleMover and Skyway back in would be giant improvements.
                                  They would be horrible mistakes and that's why they haven't been done. Imagineering was all for the removal of the skyway because it was big and ugly and obtrusive. It was fun from a pure visceral aspect, but that's the kind of fun you expect from Sea World not from Disney. It will never come back.

                                  The PeopleMover, if it does come back, will have to be plussed with some character addition or movie tie in. A multimillion dollar addition of a moving seat and views of blank walls is not really all that exciting.

                                  Tomorrowland is not a place for concerts.
                                  I agree actually. I think they should rip out the Tomorrowland Terrace altogether.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

                                    Originally posted by RandySavage View Post
                                    As I'm sure you're aware, Lucas was inspired by 1930s serials like Flash Gordon when he made Star Wars. He also took a lot from 'ancient' mythology (eg sword fights, knights, evil empires, monsters, wizards, etc.) and placed it all in a futuristic setting.

                                    Now getting to the retro-future aspect of the design. I am a huge fan of the design work for the original trilogy, and I think part of what makes it so appealing & timeless (as you suggested) is that much of it is rooted in the history. Not only are ships, vehicles, etc. dented, dirty and look like they were built from scrap metal, but they subtly remind of us of things we've seen in the past:
                                    Thank you for responding in such detail, and with pictorial evidence to boot! I appreciate that. I still disagree with you, but I think it's largely a semantic disagreement over what retro-futuristic means. You're absolutely right that mythology, the old serials, and modern technology all informed and inspired Star Wars, but when you look at the actual design itself, there's nothing about it that I'd call retro-futuristic. To me, retro-futuristic suggests an approach that intentionally eschews what seems like realistic predictions now in favor of what seemed like realistic predictions in the past. I don't see that in Star Wars. I just see images from the past and present being expertly put to use in a futuristic context. Two different things, IMHO.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

                                      The Skyway was never "big and ugly and obtrusive."

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

                                        Originally posted by Bob Weaver View Post
                                        The Skyway was never "big and ugly and obtrusive."

                                        With today's standars, I'd think it'd be considered more tacky. But that's just my perspective. Do you agree?

                                        With parks like TDS and DAK, I can't imagine Disney still keeping those buckets around.

                                        one hundred and one

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          Re: Tomorrowland: The Visual Evolution

                                          I think the Skyway was not perfect. It was every bit as off-the-shelf as the worst parts of Paradise Pier, and it made little thematic sense in both lands it traversed. The only thing that was cool about it - and boy, was it cool! - was the fact that you got to see the park from the air, pass through the Matterhorn, and end up somewhere else without having to walk there.

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