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  • #21
    Re: Increased prices justification

    As someone else said, Econ 101: supply and demand: we are demanding, and Disneyland is supplying. And when they are at capacity on an OCTOBER Friday night, they obviously have a huge demand. So the price increases are not having an effect on the demand, are they?

    And if you want more proof, look at the numbers on AP's that are floating around out there: it used to be in the 600,000 range, and is now in the 800,000+ range. So again, there is more demand, and price has not affected that demand. Thus they can raise their prices without affecting demand, thus creating more profit. That's called capitalism, folks!

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    • #22
      Re: Increased prices justification

      Originally posted by MrLiver View Post
      It never happened. There is no report anywhere on record that blames budget cuts, and the CMs involved in the Big Thunder accident specifically said that budget cuts had NO PART in the accident.

      The CMs screwed up. The budget was not involved at all.
      Originally posted by MrLiver View Post
      There is a major mistake in that report:

      There was no way for ANYONE to know that the work had not been done, as the work had been signed off as being done.
      Judging by your statements I take it you do not agree with the results of the DOSH investigations. DOSH tested and then specifically cited the rope as a contributing factor in the Columbia incident. The rope had been changed from cotton break away to nylon to save on costs. The maintenance shop and river crew formally protested the change when it happened but they were overruled. DOSH noted that Disney did not have enough cameras to properly cover the Thunder track and this was something requested by the Thunder crew and denied by Disney due to cost. DOSH also cited an over-reliance on computer PM reports and an understaffed maintenance shop as contributing factors in the Thunder incident. DOSH concluded that the bolt had not been properly secured n the locomotive. Mr Liver... if you take issue with the statement that budget cuts and cost saving measures were factors in these incidents then you should voice your complaints against DOSH.

      Originally posted by aashee View Post
      If I am pondering what executives make instead having fun at Disneyland, I should no longer be going. Maybe I'll go bowling...nah the guy who made the bowling balls took all the money and skipped the safety in drilling the holes in the balls.
      You must make sure the balls are safe whenever you wear the funny clown style bowling shoes! Nothing is more dangerous then unsafe balls bouncing around.

      Originally posted by h2opolodad View Post
      As someone else said, Econ 101: supply and demand: we are demanding, and Disneyland is supplying. And when they are at capacity on an OCTOBER Friday night, they obviously have a huge demand. So the price increases are not having an effect on the demand, are they?
      Citing AP's completely undermines this argument as they pay a substantially discounted ticket price. It would be the equivalent of saying "The park was crowded on the first weekend of the 2fer". Personally I think most people see the actual ticket price as a joke. They laugh, then they go to Sams Club or Costco or the Exchange on base, or the local CA Ralphs, or wherever else a promotional is going on and they purchase a discounted ticket or discounted travel package! Disney obviously can't pack as many people in at the listed price as they would like otherwise they wouldn't bother to undercut their own main gate with substantial discount programs.
      Last edited by techskip; 10-10-2009, 03:20 PM.
      "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

      sigpic

      "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

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      • #23
        Re: Increased prices justification

        Originally posted by techskip View Post
        Judging by your statements I take it you do not agree with the results of the DOSH investigations.
        The DOSH investigations completely support everything I have said.

        DOSH tested and then specifically cited the rope as a contributing factor in the Columbia incident.
        Any piece of equipment used improperly can be deadly. Can you cite for us exactly where in the DOSH report for the Columbia investigation it said the rope was to blame?

        DOSH noted that Disney did not have enough cameras to properly cover the Thunder track and this was something requested by the Thunder crew and denied by Disney due to cost.
        Citation please.

        DOSH also cited an over-reliance on computer PM reports and an understaffed maintenance shop as contributing factors in the Thunder incident.
        Citation please.

        DOSH concluded that the bolt had not been properly secured n the locomotive.
        The issue wasn't that the bolt had not been secured, but that someone had signed off on the work saying it WAS secured when it wasn't. Someone made a clerical error that had nothing to do with budgets.

        Mr Liver... if you take issue with the statement that budget cuts and cost saving measures were factors in these incidents then you should voice your complaints against DOSH.
        I think you need to go re-read the DOSH reports.

        And if you think they are being too easy, take your case to the DA and ask them to press charges for negligence, because if it really went down as you said, Disney could be held criminally liable.

        But of course it didn't go down that way and the DA would laugh you right out of the office.

        Comment


        • #24
          Re: Increased prices justification

          I'm sure that Disney management winces when its employees and supporters wave the "not Disney's fault" flag.

          Modern management technique is to take responsibility, get in front of the blame curve and control the story in a positive, proactive manner. Knee-jerk defensiveness only serves to further erode the public's trust and confidence. It suggests that not only has the company not learned from its past mistakes, but is liable to repeat them in the future.


          "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
          it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
          together with every variety of recreation and fun,
          designed to appeal to everyone."

          - Walt Disney

          "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
          - Michael Eisner

          "It's very symbiotic."
          - Bob Chapek

          Comment


          • #25
            Re: Increased prices justification

            I guess we WONT be seeing Mr Wiggins around DLR much then eh? have you ever flown on an airplane? Sh&% happens. No matter how thourough people are. its still people, systems (created by people) and more people. If its mechanical it can break. The overall safety track record is pretty good. Nothing in life is perfect.

            by the way, this doesn't for one moment undermine the terrible tragedys that any accident causes. but all life has its risks.
            Hidden Mickey - Tower of Terror



            Hidden Mickey's here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/whatzup...7623565921220/
            Check out my Wal't Apartment tour here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/whatzup/sets/72157625183415995/

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            • #26
              Re: Increased prices justification

              Losing Mr Wiggins as a customer certainly isn't Disney's worry (your erroneous assumption that I would stay away from DLR for safety concerns notwithstanding).

              Losing thousands of parents to an attitude of "DOSH was wrong," "ain't our fault," and "Sh&% happens" is something else again.

              What is lost on those who play the "Sh&% happens" card is the irony that Disneyland is safe -- extremely safe. But rather than cite the reality of its safety, the knee jerk reaction is to blow off those who voice concerns. It's a reaction that every corporate consultant since the Johnson & Johnson Tylenol debacle advises against, for the simple reason that it makes the company appear as if it may have something to hide.


              "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
              it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
              together with every variety of recreation and fun,
              designed to appeal to everyone."

              - Walt Disney

              "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
              - Michael Eisner

              "It's very symbiotic."
              - Bob Chapek

              Comment


              • #27
                Re: Increased prices justification

                I really don't feel it's that bad. I'm paying $300 for four nights in a hotel within walking distance of DL AND three-day parkhoppers. And this is a deal I got through Disneyland.com. Not too shabby, my friend.
                "I can stand the sight of worms,
                and look at microscopic germs,
                but technicolor pachyderms
                are really too much for me."

                Comment


                • #28
                  Re: Increased prices justification

                  Honesty is the best policy. I think we might agree. by the way, I am kinda curious as to what really happend with that monorail in Florida
                  Hidden Mickey - Tower of Terror



                  Hidden Mickey's here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/whatzup...7623565921220/
                  Check out my Wal't Apartment tour here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/whatzup/sets/72157625183415995/

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Re: Increased prices justification

                    Having been involved with industrial machinery very similar to the rides at DL for most of my life, here's my guess at exactly what happened to Thunder Mountain. This is only a guess, but the guess is born out of many years of hands-on experience.

                    For whatever reason, a critical bolt was loosened. Quite likely it was replaced, or it held a part that was replaced. The mechanic put the assembly back together, and tightened the bolt by hand. He had every intention of applying the proper torque to the bolt, then installing the safety wire.

                    For whatever reason, he became distracted, possibly he was asked to help with another project. Usually, only mechanics with considerable experience are allowed to work on critical items. Maybe his opinion was needed somewhere else.

                    In the end, he didn't torque the bolt properly.

                    This isn't necessarily doom, because every critical part of such a machine is inspected before it can be placed back into service. The inspector looks it over, then if all is well, he signs it off.

                    Obviously, all was not well. Somehow, the absence of the safety wire was not noticed. Safety wire on a bolt like this is easily noticed. It's right out there on the end of the bolt. Even if the bolt had been only hand-tight, the safety wire would have prevented it from coming all the way out.

                    This begs the question....Just exactly how did two experienced people miss something this critically important?

                    Could it be that due to budget cuts, there simply aren't enough people to get all the work done? Possibly the mechanic had to do his original job, and now make up for the mechanic who was laid off? Maybe the inspector is in the same boat.

                    One thing I know for sure here is that the actual truth will NEVER be known.

                    Imagine yourself as a CM being interviewed about the incident. Are you going to say it happened because of budget cuts? Even if you believe it? Of course not! You'd lose your job. Not because of what you said, that'd be illegal. DL management would simply use one of the 376,194 other completely legal reasons to fire you.

                    What would you put on your resume'? "Fired because of ratting out managements budget cuts resulting in a death". You couldn't even get hired to clean toilets in public parks with that stigma!

                    As I stated above, this is my opinion, nothing else. But I've seen this scenario way too many times due to budget cuts in the maintenance department.

                    Rob

                    P.S. Sorry for the long post, I just couldn't get it to make sense if it were shorter.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Re: Increased prices justification

                      Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
                      I'm sure that Disney management winces when its employees and supporters wave the "not Disney's fault" flag.
                      No one here is trying to claim that the accident wasn't Disney's fault.

                      Some folks here are jumping to the conclusion that the accident HAD to be the result of budget cuts, despite all official reports and witnesses testifying that was not the case.

                      It's just ignorance on the part of those people who are jumping to conclusions.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Re: Increased prices justification

                        Originally posted by MrLiver View Post
                        No one here is trying to claim that the accident wasn't Disney's fault.
                        No?
                        There was no way for ANYONE to know that the work had not been done, as the work had been signed off as being done.

                        -

                        Any piece of equipment used improperly can be deadly. Can you cite for us exactly where in the DOSH report for the Columbia investigation it said the rope was to blame?

                        -

                        The issue wasn't that the bolt had not been secured, but that someone had signed off on the work saying it WAS secured when it wasn't.

                        -

                        I think you need to go re-read the DOSH reports.

                        And if you think they are being too easy, take your case to the DA and ask them to press charges for negligence, because if it really went down as you said, Disney could be held criminally liable.

                        But of course it didn't go down that way and the DA would laugh you right out of the office.


                        "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
                        it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
                        together with every variety of recreation and fun,
                        designed to appeal to everyone."

                        - Walt Disney

                        "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
                        - Michael Eisner

                        "It's very symbiotic."
                        - Bob Chapek

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Re: Increased prices justification

                          Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
                          No?
                          No. But if you need further clarification:

                          There was no way for ANYONE to know that the work had not been done, as the work had been signed off as being done.


                          The website quoted above tried to claim that the train was being operated with the knowledge that there were mechanical problems with the train. As I said, there was no way for anyone to know that the train was not repaired to spec because someone had signed off knowing it was.

                          No where did I claim that Disney was not at fault. But the notion that Disney management was aware of the malfunction and found it perfectly acceptable to run a malfunctioning attraction is incorrect.

                          Any piece of equipment used improperly can be deadly. Can you cite for us exactly where in the DOSH report for the Columbia investigation it said the rope was to blame?


                          If you are unfamilar with the accident, the rope broke because the Cast Member improperly tried to tie off a boat that was coming in too fast. It was the Cast Member's fault not the rope.

                          Both accidents were Disney's fault in that their employee's action caused them, but they were humans and humans make mistakes. Accident's happened in Walt's time too, but no one would claim those were because of budget cuts.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Re: Increased prices justification

                            Originally posted by MrLiver View Post
                            No one here is trying to claim that the accident wasn't Disney's fault.

                            Some folks here are jumping to the conclusion that the accident HAD to be the result of budget cuts, despite all official reports and witnesses testifying that was not the case.

                            It's just ignorance on the part of those people who are jumping to conclusions.
                            I said budget cuts played into the accidents... not that budget cuts were solely responsible for the accidents.
                            "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

                            sigpic

                            "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Re: Increased prices justification

                              Originally posted by Lanmon View Post
                              Prices indeed have been increasing throughout DLR. I was just wondering how DLR can justify the increased prices when so many attractions are closed for whatever reason.
                              1. Do you think prices should be lowered a just few dollars during the refurbishments?
                              2. Do you think out of town guests feel they are not getting their moneys worth?
                              3. Does mgt really believe that "it is Disneyland therefore guests will come" regardless of the increased price and closed attractions?
                              4. Do you think DLR would make more money if their prices were lower during this time?
                              Just a thought for discussion.
                              That's a lot of questions. I've numbered them for ease of reply.
                              1. No. refurbishments occur in the off-season BECAUSE not many out-of-town guests are expected to come.
                              2. There are not that many out-of-town guests. Heck, even this summer there weren't a lot of out-of-town guests. Yet, the parks remain attended at a pretty nice level. This is because the prices are too low for these particular guests.
                              3. Management SEES that guests are coming, no matter what. And the reason is that DL is very inexpensive for many of these guests. Raising the prices of the one-day ticket prices is not the way to go. No, in order to gain top-line revenue, the LOWEST prices need to be raised.
                              4. Not enough to make the change. This summer, TDA created a 3-day pass for locals that generated crowds.

                              Higher prices for things people choose to buy during a trip is not the answer, because the choice not to buy is always available. I choose this option while in the parks all the time.

                              Lastly, there are not that many attractions closed, compared to the total number of attractions available. We should concentrate our thinking efforts on only one thing...(r)

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Re: Increased prices justification

                                Originally posted by MrLiver View Post
                                The website quoted above tried to claim that the train was being operated with the knowledge that there were mechanical problems with the train. As I said, there was no way for anyone to know that the train was not repaired to spec because someone had signed off knowing it was.
                                The train had been making thumps and was slated to be pulled on the next go-round. They had meant to pull it right there but the train had already loaded. It was also common for Facilities to do a once-over, not see anything, and send it back. I can't count how many times we would need to pull a train before they would actually put it on the rack and look it over. Meanwhile every radio from Theme Park 1 on down would scream about how Thunder was 105 because of "mysterious thumps on an old train". It wasn't until one of those thumps proved fatal that pulled trains were taken seriously. That's not in a report... it's called actual ride experience

                                No where did I claim that Disney was not at fault. But the notion that Disney management was aware of the malfunction and found it perfectly acceptable to run a malfunctioning attraction is incorrect.
                                Where did I or anyone else state that until now? Had they known what would happen anyone would have pulled the train immediately. At the time it was simply a "thumping" train... and the crew had taken flack plenty of times from Management for pulling them.

                                DOSH completely re-wrote the procedures for pulling a malfunctioning train and for bringing it back on the track. If pulled for maintanence it had to be fully inspected. When returned "repaired or believed to be repaired" it had to be cycled once empty. Disney resisted these changes claiming that it wasn't necessary to cycle a repaired train and that due to time facilities may not always be able to inspect every train in a timely manner. The crew and facilies worked with DOSH to ensure those measures were not only passed but followed to the letter. I don't expect you to have known that, I doubt you were there.

                                If you are unfamilar with the accident, the rope broke because the Cast Member improperly tried to tie off a boat that was coming in too fast. It was the Cast Member's fault not the rope.
                                The rope was a nylon rope that did not break. In the past a cotton rope had been used specifically because the tension would cause the rope to break before anything failed. DOSH also noted wood rot on the Columbia as a contributing factor. That wood rot had been noted on several CM inspections, had been called in, but had not yet been addressed. I'm curious Liver if you had the opportunity to watch DOSH test the ropes... if so we may have met.

                                Both accidents were Disney's fault in that their employee's action caused them, but they were humans and humans make mistakes. Accident's happened in Walt's time too, but no one would claim those were because of budget cuts.
                                For these accidents to happen a lot of wrong things had to be in play at the right time. Hindsight will always be 20/20 but the mantenince budget had been cut and facilities had lost a great deal of manpower. Those cuts and the line item decision to buy a cheaper nylon rope contributed to the accidents. I had asked in a previous thread for you to cite any experience in either accident and I was met with silence. I doubt I can expect any more information now.

                                It gives you a completely different perspective of Disney when you have direct personal connections to two very tragic accidents. That said Disneyland is an exceptionally safe park. I have no issues riding various attractions. Those accidents were exactly that, accidents, and it took a lot of very specific conditions lined up just right for them to happen. Policy, poor training, lack of maintence, lack of oversight, lack of manpower and budget cuts all played a role in what happened. It can not soley be blamed on any one factor as all were present.
                                Last edited by techskip; 10-12-2009, 04:33 PM.
                                "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

                                sigpic

                                "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Re: Increased prices justification

                                  Originally posted by techskip View Post
                                  That wood rot had been noted on several CM inspections, had been called in, but had not yet been addressed.
                                  ...thanks in no small part to Pressler & Irby's infamous "deferred maintenance" strategy, where money needed for critical maintenance was withheld to achieve the double digit profits demanded by Michael Eisner.

                                  Be it insufficiently trained CMs and leads, understaffed attraction positions, rushed maintenance, rotting wood or the general atmosphere of "do it fast and cheap," management partisans continue to insist WDC isn't responsible. Such revisionist history is symptomatic of political gamesmanship -- especially when the gamesmen are on the losing side.


                                  Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 10-12-2009, 04:56 PM.
                                  "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
                                  it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
                                  together with every variety of recreation and fun,
                                  designed to appeal to everyone."

                                  - Walt Disney

                                  "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
                                  - Michael Eisner

                                  "It's very symbiotic."
                                  - Bob Chapek

                                  Comment

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