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  • [Chat] Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

    I am not a fan of Nemo... I'll just toss that on the table right now!

    It seems that whenever an overlay on Subs is brought up most quickly point to Atlantis as the "one that got away". It was supposed to be the overlay, then the movie flopped, and the sub lagoon became a duck pond for a decade.

    Since my kids never saw Atlantis Tinkmomma and I rented it. I'd planned on buying it at a discount (picked up Treasure Planet that way) but no store carried Atlantis anymore (I got lucky scoring the last copy of Treasure Planet). So... watched it... watched it a few times actually (4 kids, so anything new will play several times at our house). I'm so GLAD I didn't buy it. I'll spare the movie critique and go to the point of the thread...

    Atlantis takes place at the turn of the century. There is a specific comment about finding the power source of Atlantis which is "more powerful then steam or coal". Granted Atlantis itself is advanced... but the explorer team that "re-discovered" it would fit better in the old theme of Adventureland or Main Street USA. So I am curious, how would Atlantis fit the theme of the world of Tomorrow? or was it simply a stylistic design change and a cheap overlay (queue Nemo comments now...) ?





    And because I really have to say this... no kid movie should ever open with subtitles and a foreign language! One of many problems I had with Atlantis. oh and Treasure Planet still ranks up there as one of my modern favorites, so lucky I found it!
    129
    Yes Atlantis would have worked
    26.36%
    34
    No Atlantis would not have worked
    11.63%
    15
    I would have preferred Atlantis
    19.38%
    25
    I prefer the current Nemo
    4.65%
    6
    I would prefer an original design and theme
    21.71%
    28
    I miss the old Subs
    16.28%
    21
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  • #2
    Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

    I would love if it was an updated, new version of the old subs. (and no, that doesn not mean sticking a bunch of tvs in there and a rock and calling it a sea serpent) I think if not, Atlantis could work, and even the concept/idea of nemo, if their execution was done right. But they could've messed anything up with the lousy projections, even bringing back an updated version of the classic.

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    • #3
      Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

      Originally posted by techskip View Post
      And because I really have to say this... no kid movie should ever open with subtitles and a foreign language!
      Atlantis: The Lost Empire is not a kid movie. Just because it's animated doesn't mean it's for kids. Treasure Planet isn't really a kid movie either, not in the usual sense of the phrase. Bildungsroman tends to go right over the heads of the pre-pubescent.

      Oh, and to answer your question, I think it would have been possible to use Atlantis as a source for imagery and theming while still setting the ride in the future. The Atlanteans are functionally immortal, right?
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      • #4
        Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

        I actually got quite a kick out of Atlantis: The Lost Empire. You're in good company with those who disagree, techskip, but I'm not one of 'em. As a movie for little kids, perhaps not so great, but I think it's got a lot of really interesting stuff in it. The way they developed the Atlantean culture and language is fascinating.

        That being said...Finding Nemo is more popular, so from a numbers standpoint, it makes more sense. Thematically...well, neither fits in Tomorrowland, though Atlantis would have been a lot closer in intent, if not in time period. I personally would have enjoyed it more, particularly if it didn't have FNSV's other flaws - reliance on faded 2D projections, merely retelling the movie without much real creativity or freshness, stuff like that.

        On the whole, it really would have been better if they'd fashioned it into a trip to an underwater city of the future, perhaps with the something-goes-terribly-wrong twist if that proved too docile a concept to pitch. The opportunities for updating the subs with a truly exciting and futuristic approach would have been there.

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        • #5
          Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

          Originally posted by Karalora View Post
          Atlantis: The Lost Empire is not a kid movie. Just because it's animated doesn't mean it's for kids. Treasure Planet isn't really a kid movie either, not in the usual sense of the phrase. Bildungsroman tends to go right over the heads of the pre-pubescent.
          Technically you could say Snow White isn't a kid movie either. I believe the more appropriate term would be "family" movie since Disney animated features are marketed specifically to families. For the children of those families the opening scenes in a foreign language with subtitles ruined it...

          I realize some animated features are more "adult" then others (for example Hunchback) but at the same time the LCD should always be a factor. Having a surplus of unique characters whose various backstories could not easily be explored further was another drawback IMHO. It was no "Snow White and Seven Dwarves" if you will.
          "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

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          • #6
            Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

            Originally posted by Datameister View Post
            That being said...Finding Nemo is more popular, so from a numbers standpoint, it makes more sense. Thematically...well, neither fits in Tomorrowland, though Atlantis would have been a lot closer in intent, if not in time period. I personally would have enjoyed it more, particularly if it didn't have FNSV's other flaws - reliance on faded 2D projections, merely retelling the movie without much real creativity or freshness, stuff like that.
            I question the term "futuristic" if the theme was to use an antiquated sub from the 1920's to explore an advanced socitey from ancient Greece. Even if the Subs were modern Atlantian versions that were futuristic by our standards their "date" would still be the 1920's per the movie.

            That is sort of the dilema, going "backwards" in time to project an obviously futuristic technology.

            As to the movie. I liked aspects of it. Specifically the design of the vehicles and the steampunk style of what could have been. I also enjoyed the various scenes of Atlantis itself and it's various technologies. I could see Tomorrowland utilizing Atlantis as inspiration for what the future may hold... but again I question how the overlay would have worked from a theme perspective.
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            • #7
              Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

              Originally posted by techskip View Post
              Technically you could say Snow White isn't a kid movie either. I believe the more appropriate term would be "family" movie since Disney animated features are marketed specifically to families. For the children of those families the opening scenes in a foreign language with subtitles ruined it...
              If they're too young to read, there's a lot in the film that would go right over their heads. It's not for little kids. It's for teens and adults.

              I realize some animated features are more "adult" then others (for example Hunchback) but at the same time the LCD should always be a factor.
              I disagree. Disney should be able to use its strongest filmmaking medium to explore stories for a wide variety of audiences. The expectation that everything they make should be comprehensible to everyone from preschool on up is hamstringing their ability to be creative.

              Having a surplus of unique characters whose various backstories could not easily be explored further was another drawback IMHO.
              This from the guy who thinks the park rides should leave more to the guests' imaginations?

              It was no "Snow White and Seven Dwarves" if you will.
              Arguably, that's a good thing. Were it not for the nostalgia factor, I think most people nowadays would find Snow White to be unbearably corny and offensively backwards to boot. Groundbreaking, yes. Beautifully animated in places, absolutely. But the studio has learned a lot about plotting and characterization in the intervening 72 years. Atlantis is a more sophisticated story than Snow White.
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              • #8
                Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

                Originally posted by Karalora View Post
                If they're too young to read, there's a lot in the film that would go right over their heads. It's not for little kids. It's for teens and adults.
                There is a TON in Toy Story among other films that go right over the heads of the little ones. However if a storyteller is to keep everyone entertained then they need to cater to the whole audience and not start off excluding a portion of it.

                As to being "for teens and adults" that doesn't explain why it was specifically marketed to kids including previews on current Disney movies. Roger Rabbit was not for kids and stated this openly... Atlantis, like Hunchback, was packaged as a family movie when in fact it was meant for a more adult audience.

                I disagree. Disney should be able to use its strongest filmmaking medium to explore stories for a wide variety of audiences. The expectation that everything they make should be comprehensible to everyone from preschool on up is hamstringing their ability to be creative.
                I cite Shrek, Toy Story, Jungle Book, Dumbo and many others as examples of catering to kids while entertaining adults on a higher level. It is entirely possible... it's called creativity!

                This from the guy who thinks the park rides should leave more to the guests' imaginations?
                There is a difference from an attraction you are meant to be fully immersed in and experience and a movie that should have a definitive plotline. To create such a unique band and then not explore them further is akin to having beautiful scenery. Jungle Book utilized a multitude of characters, all unique, but each a bit part. The "team" was quite a bit more then a "bit part" and yet never fully utilized...

                Arguably, that's a good thing. Were it not for the nostalgia factor, I think most people nowadays would find Snow White to be unbearably corny and offensively backwards to boot. Groundbreaking, yes. Beautifully animated in places, absolutely. But the studio has learned a lot about plotting and characterization in the intervening 72 years. Atlantis is a more sophisticated story than Snow White.
                Were it not for Nostalgia and the longing of the past it could be argued that Disneyland itself would never have been built.
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                • #9
                  Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

                  Originally posted by techskip View Post
                  I question the term "futuristic" if the theme was to use an antiquated sub from the 1920's to explore an advanced socitey from ancient Greece. Even if the Subs were modern Atlantian versions that were futuristic by our standards their "date" would still be the 1920's per the movie. That is sort of the dilema, going "backwards" in time to project an obviously futuristic technology.
                  Keep in mind I did say it doesn't fit in the theme of Tomorrowland, skip. It's not set in the future, which basically automatically disqualifies it. I was simply pointing out that it's a better fit (if not a wiser choice overall) than Nemo. Atlantis at least contains strong elements of forging ahead adventurously to new frontiers and technology that looks futuristic, whereas Nemo has absolutely nothing that could be construed as thematically similar to Tomorrowland.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

                    Originally posted by techskip View Post
                    As to being "for teens and adults" that doesn't explain why it was specifically marketed to kids including previews on current Disney movies.
                    There is no explaining why that happened. It's an established fact by now that there is no accounting for the bizarre alien behavior of Disney's Marketing Department. But don't knock the movie itself for being over the heads of a demographic it was never intended to appeal to.

                    I cite Shrek, Toy Story, Jungle Book, Dumbo and many others as examples of catering to kids while entertaining adults on a higher level. It is entirely possible... it's called creativity!
                    Right...but does every movie have to do this? The preschoolers get their insipid Tigger movies; is it too much to ask that we adults get high-quality animated Disney movies that don't have to have anything dumbed down for the kiddies?

                    There is a difference from an attraction you are meant to be fully immersed in and experience and a movie that should have a definitive plotline. To create such a unique band and then not explore them further is akin to having beautiful scenery.
                    I think their personalities were established well enough. We don't need to know everything about them; it's enough that we know that there is more to them than we had time to see.

                    Although come to think of it, Atlantis might have made a better series or mini-series than feature film.

                    Were it not for Nostalgia and the longing of the past it could be argued that Disneyland itself would never have been built.
                    Was I knocking nostalgia? I was not. I was just saying that Snow White is in many ways an inferior product to more contemporary animated films, just because the technology and skill for producing them has improved so much in the meantime.

                    Heck, there's a lot at Disneyland that I probably wouldn't tolerate if I hadn't grown up with it. That doesn't make me like it any less given the circumstances that exist. But I'm certainly not going to declare Mr. Toad's Wild Ride a better ride than the Indiana Jones Adventure on the grounds that it's more family-friendly and more classic.

                    I think I'm going to watch my copy of Atlantis right now, just to spite you.
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                    • #11
                      Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

                      TS, we have a bit in common, that we both didn't care for Atlantis, but both liked Treasure Planet. That being said . . .

                      I still like the idea of a "Live Action Atlantis Adventure" for the subs, but not one based on the animated movie. I also hope Disney could get a good script for a live action Atlantis movie. There seems to be real missed potential, that no movie studio has captured, and no one has hit upon a really great story with an "Atlantis" theme. The Abyss, Waterworld, disney's Atlantis have all missed the mark. And there has to be a storyline, in someones mind, that is as good as the original Pirates of the Carribean movie.
                      Critter Country's a mess ev'r since the Country Bears were kicked out. Ya can't cover pooh with honey and 'spect people ta like it.
                      An Adventurers It's Time to Put the Spotlight Back on Bring Back the REAL Disney Gallery
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                      • #12
                        Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

                        Off topic, but I wouldn't say The Abyss "missed the mark", personally. I wouldn't exactly classify it as having an Atlantis theme, either, although it certainly has some things in common with it.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

                          Those are the only movies I could think of that had anywhere near a somewhat "Atlantis" element. Like I said, there has to be REAL powderkeg potential for an Atlantis themed movie, action adventure, with a twist of wry humor, with a side of romance.
                          Critter Country's a mess ev'r since the Country Bears were kicked out. Ya can't cover pooh with honey and 'spect people ta like it.
                          An Adventurers It's Time to Put the Spotlight Back on Bring Back the REAL Disney Gallery
                          Life for Me! ~ ~ ~ Melvin, Buff, and Max!!! ~~~~ Dump the Dream Suite!
                          Meese-ka Moose-ka Mice-Chatter!

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                          • #14
                            Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

                            I think nemo should have worked, and should've been good- but it wasn't. I didn't realize how unentertaining it would be to sit in a tiny sub starring through a small window and looking at projections.
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                            • #15
                              Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

                              Originally posted by Karalora View Post
                              There is no explaining why that happened. It's an established fact by now that there is no accounting for the bizarre alien behavior of Disney's Marketing Department. But don't knock the movie itself for being over the heads of a demographic it was never intended to appeal to.
                              See I question the intention specifically because of the amount of toys, merchandise, the fact that it was previewed on various Disney DVD's and the fact that it was slated to be a Disneyland attraction... while it was not specifically designed for kids it was produced with the entire family in mind. It's failure was because critics screened it believing it to be a family brand and families went to the theater expecting to be entertained as a family.

                              Where it fell apart is in attempting to appeal to a an older demographic from the onset... much like Home on the Range appealed to a much younger demographic from the onset. Many of Disney's "classics" both old and new include the whole age spectrum. The same can be said of Disneyland attractions. Kids love Jungle, Adults enjoy Jungle... Kids love Pooh... Adults not so much... it really goes all the way to the core belief that you are entertaining an entire audience not just the adults and not just the kids.

                              Right...but does every movie have to do this? The preschoolers get their insipid Tigger movies; is it too much to ask that we adults get high-quality animated Disney movies that don't have to have anything dumbed down for the kiddies?
                              I never said every movie had to do this, arguably some of the best of them do. What people tend to apprecite about both Dreamworks and Pixar is their creative ability to cater to both audiences. Some of Disney's finest work does the same on the classic hand drawn level. Kids likely do not understand the darker meaning of Lady and the Tramp... but adults do. What is strange is that Disney animated features primarily catered to either both audiences, or kids specifically... the notion of an animated feature specifically for adults is a pretty modern concept and a step away from the "family" brand. Roger Rabbit demonstrated that!

                              I think their personalities were established well enough. We don't need to know everything about them; it's enough that we know that there is more to them than we had time to see.

                              Although come to think of it, Atlantis might have made a better series or mini-series than feature film.
                              The whole time I was watching it I was thinking how much better it would have worked as a standard cartoon series. It had "too much" going on with the wide variety of characters and multiple plot lines. KISS... where you take one plot and then overlay or underlay material for various audiences. It felt like they tried to tell a completely different plot to each audience and again... IMHO it failed.

                              Was I knocking nostalgia? I was not. I was just saying that Snow White is in many ways an inferior product to more contemporary animated films, just because the technology and skill for producing them has improved so much in the meantime.
                              Just me but I believe Snow White and Sleeping Beauty are comparable to this generations Beauty and the Beast and Little Mermaid... comparing it to Atlantis is actually somewhat insulting to be honest.

                              Heck, there's a lot at Disneyland that I probably wouldn't tolerate if I hadn't grown up with it. That doesn't make me like it any less given the circumstances that exist. But I'm certainly not going to declare Mr. Toad's Wild Ride a better ride than the Indiana Jones Adventure on the grounds that it's more family-friendly and more classic.
                              And yet I have to ask... do families enjoy Indy together or do they enjoy Pirates together? Excluding a demograpic, no matter how great the experience, breaks the family. That said if I took my family out to the movies with the knowledge that it is a Disney animated feature I would expect it to cater to all of us, or to lean more towards something the kids would enjoy.

                              I think I'm going to watch my copy of Atlantis right now, just to spite you.
                              I'd go with Treasure Planet.

                              Aladdin- I'm a devoted fan of classic writings... Treasure Island and Kidnapped are both on my shelf (Kidnapped being an original copy that was my grandfather's). I am continually amazed at how they were able to turn Stevenson into Lucas with a little creativity and a lot of imagination!
                              Last edited by techskip; 10-09-2009, 09:05 PM.
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                              • #16
                                Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

                                I absolutely LOVE Atlantis, and would have preferred to see that as an overlay.

                                Side-note: I started collecting the Walt Disney Classics Collection at D23 Expo, and the first piece I bought was Kida from Atlantis. This one.

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                                • #17
                                  Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

                                  Originally posted by caligirl09 View Post
                                  I think nemo should have worked, and should've been good- but it wasn't. I didn't realize how unentertaining it would be to sit in a tiny sub starring through a small window and looking at projections.
                                  Nemo as a ride can work fine, the Nemo ride at EPCOT is okay, nothing creat, but nothing wrong, in and of itself.
                                  Nemo combined witht the subs, adds nothing to either the Nemo experience or the sub experience. These are two different concepts that have nothing to do with each other.
                                  Personally I've never understood why the subs were ever considered to be approriate in Tomorrowland in any form. Living and working under the sea is a futuristtic idea. Taking a submarine sightseeing voyage (even when something goes wrong or you get to talk to cartoon fish) isn't.
                                  I like the visual of the submarine lagoon in the park and would miss it if it were ever to go away, but as an attraction I've never felt it was in the right space.
                                  Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want!

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                                  • #18
                                    Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

                                    Originally posted by longears View Post
                                    Personally I've never understood why the subs were ever considered to be approriate in Tomorrowland in any form.
                                    If you'd been a kid in '59 when the subs opened, you'd understand what the Submarine Voyage thru Liquid Space was about, and why it was appropriate for the Tomorrowland of the time. In those pre-Cousteau days, it was killer.

                                    The sub voyage needed ongoing updates to stay ahead of real world oceanography. Disney management was too cheap to give it even one. So they let the attraction rot, then closed it down.

                                    To the point of the thread, I don't think a sub attraction based on Atlantis the movie would be appropriate for Tomorrowland. Being familiar with both the film and the style of check-your-brains-at-the-gate "storytelling" that WDI favors these days, it makes me shudder to think about it. Then again, it wouldn't take much to outclass Nemo.


                                    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 10-09-2009, 09:41 PM.

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                                    • #19
                                      Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

                                      Another interesting point is that Disney at this specific time had just started with full blown tie-ins instead of loose tie-ins. There is no way of knowing if they would have deviated from their creative direction but... Pooh... Tarzan... BLAB... all indications point towards a direct Atlantis tie-in vs an "inspired by" (as in stealing the sub design etc.).
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                                      • #20
                                        Re: Would Atlantis have worked as an overlay on Subs?

                                        Originally posted by techskip View Post
                                        See I question the intention specifically because of the amount of toys, merchandise, the fact that it was previewed on various Disney DVD's and the fact that it was slated to be a Disneyland attraction... while it was not specifically designed for kids it was produced with the entire family in mind. It's failure was because critics screened it believing it to be a family brand and families went to the theater expecting to be entertained as a family.
                                        And all that is the fault of Marketing, not Feature Animation. Feature Animation just makes the movies; they don't decide how to advertise or merchandise them.

                                        The same can be said of Disneyland attractions. Kids love Jungle, Adults enjoy Jungle... Kids love Pooh... Adults not so much...
                                        And the youngest kids aren't even allowed on some of the beloved classics like Space Mountain. Should Space Mountain not have been built, or should it be removed and replaced with a gentler ride that the whole family can go on?

                                        it really goes all the way to the core belief that you are entertaining an entire audience not just the adults and not just the kids.
                                        That's fine. I fully appreciate that. I love most of Disney's feature films. But the fact that Atlantis is geared more for ten-and-ups than for younger kids is not a flaw in the film itself.

                                        Just me but I believe Snow White and Sleeping Beauty are comparable to this generations Beauty and the Beast and Little Mermaid... comparing it to Atlantis is actually somewhat insulting to be honest.
                                        You're the one who brought up Snow White in comparison with Atlantis, not me. And I pointed out that regardless of which one you like better, Atlantis has a more sophisticated storyline. That's simply a fact. Fairytales tend to have simpler plots than science-fiction epics.

                                        That said if I took my family out to the movies with the knowledge that it is a Disney animated feature I would expect it to cater to all of us, or to lean more towards something the kids would enjoy.
                                        Then that's your myopia. Not all of us share it.

                                        How old are your kids, by the way? If you don't mind saying.

                                        I'd go with Treasure Planet.
                                        Sadly, I do not own that one. My sister got it when we moved into different apartments.
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