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  • [Chat] Where's your line in the sand?

    This thread spins off from my thoughts while reading the Starbucks thread. Lots of people are defending the inclusion of Starbucks using a variation on "it could be worse."

    At least it'll be better than the coffee they have now.

    At least it won't be a full-on Starbucks.

    At least there's not an Abercrombie and Fitch on Main Street.

    Come on, folks. Has DL fallen so far that "at least it's not this bad" is now a valid argument? What used to be the industry leader is now getting a pass as long as it's still not at the level of Six Flags or Knott's?

    Here's a challenge for everybody. What would it take? How many declines by degrees is too many? At what point would you be forced to say, as Ex Candy Maker did in another post, that it's just not what it was? I don't mean what will cause you to stop going entirely or sell your stock, but just to say, "DL? Meh. There are better things to do w/ my time."

    Would it be an A&F on MS?

    Would it be a rollercoaster going through the Castle?

    Would it be the sale of the Park to Cedar Fair?

    What would it take for you?
    Disneyland Historic Preservation Society
    Charter Member

  • #2
    Re: Where's your line in the sand?

    What would it take for me?

    Oh, I dunno. Maybe something like...

    Turning the Submarine Voyage into a cartoon video sequel. 99 cents to add two slices of tomato to an overpriced, inedible hamburger. Ripping out the Skyway. Replacing Disneyland's unique merchandise with generic crap. Innoventions. Making a merch location out of the Main Street Bank. Toons in Small World. $3 to get your name embroidered on your Mickey Mouse ears. Closing the PeopleMover. Turning the Swiss Family Treehouse into a Disney Store display for Tarzan. Depp of the Caribbean. Mall-style color palette on Main Street buildings. Monorail windows. Parking from hell. Winnie the Pooh. Senior Imagineers who call Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage "our major E-Ticket." Turning Disneyland into a mosh pit of uncontrolled APs and promotions. Fifteen years of lowering the quality of food. Letting Fort Wilderness rot. Trashing Tomorrowland. Turning the Courtyard of Angels into a merch location.

    Starbucks on Main Street.


    "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
    it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
    together with every variety of recreation and fun,
    designed to appeal to everyone."

    - Walt Disney

    "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
    - Michael Eisner

    "It's very symbiotic."
    - Bob Chapek

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Where's your line in the sand?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Where's your line in the sand?

        Opening day brand name sponsored stores:
        Bank of America,
        Bekins Van Lines Locker Area,

        Carnation Ice Cream Parlor ,
        Gibson Greeting Cards,

        Even Walt didnt do what Walt would never stand for!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Where's your line in the sand?

          Um, how's about these little changes really, in the end mean squat. Everyone makes decisions, good and bad, every day. Many agree, many disagree. The fact is...they are just decisions. They have zero meaning and influence on our daily being.

          Until we give them value. Yeah, it's a Taoist view, but they are just that, situations. WE with all our emotions, give them meanings when we place our values upon them or not.

          You can hate the Starbuck's; you can love them. Either way, it is going to happen.

          Line in the sand, then? I decide before I go that I am going to have a good time at Disneyland. I see friends there, I have experiences. I don't let the naysayers and the doldrums take that away from me. I guess I don't have a line. I'm too tolerant of what others find annoying. Guess it is to be my lot in life.

          Peace,
          Roo
          husband, petowner, wordsmith, imagineer, martialist, playwright, traveller, ardent, wit, critic, barista, Taoist, superhero, fortuneteller, reader, fidget, teacher, dreamer, author, blogger, ghosthunter, voter, patient, bear, gourmand, Floridian, friend

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          • #6
            Re: Where's your line in the sand?

            The point is that it is happening (Starbucks on Main Street), and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. If I'm having a wonderful time in the park with my friends, I am not going to storm off in outrage because they are selling Starbucks coffee. You just have accept it. If you don't like it, that sucks for you.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Where's your line in the sand?

              Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
              What would it take for me?

              Oh, I dunno. Maybe something like...

              Turning the Submarine Voyage into a cartoon video sequel. 99 cents to add two slices of tomato to an overpriced, inedible hamburger. Ripping out the Skyway. Replacing Disneyland's unique merchandise with generic crap. Innoventions. Making a merch location out of the Main Street Bank. Toons in Small World. $3 to get your name embroidered on your Mickey Mouse ears. Closing the PeopleMover. Turning the Swiss Family Treehouse into a Disney Store display for Tarzan. Depp of the Caribbean. Mall-style color palette on Main Street buildings. Monorail windows. Parking from hell. Winnie the Pooh. Senior Imagineers who call Finding Nemo Submarine Voyage "our major E-Ticket." Turning Disneyland into a mosh pit of uncontrolled APs and promotions. Fifteen years of lowering the quality of food. Letting Fort Wilderness rot. Trashing Tomorrowland. Turning the Courtyard of Angels into a merch location.

              Starbucks on Main Street.










              (this thread reminds me of the "hassle" thread)



              So you're saying that you've written off the Park and will never be going inside again?



              Plenty of people whine, moan and groan about the Parks' condition, rules, changes, crowding, AP's, etc... (and some are down-right nasty about it!) yet they still go to the Park!

              Some of them might even claim to never be going back over a particular issue (they remind me of YAGE's LOL), but the bottom line is that most, if not all of them will... (especially if they have kids)

              And the folks at Disney know that!

              Please don't confuse whining, moaning and groaning with informing the proper people that a certain situation exists. When properly done, that type of notification might be a benefit to said entity, especially if it is a valid one.

              It is when the whining, moaning and groaning is taken to the extreme and/or when certain "threats" are made along with them that they go over the edge and are not taken seriously any longer. And rightfully so...


              If there is something that I get all worked up about which results in me whining, moaning and groaning, I'll write it off and forget the place exists. Especially when there is nothing that I could really do about it anyway! (a few bad restaurants, retail stores, car dealerships and even one non-Disney "theme park" all come to mind).

              Life is too short and there are many other choices to pick from!

              Enjoy! (or at least try too!)
              Last edited by OldSchoolMickey; 10-18-2009, 07:57 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Where's your line in the sand?

                While I understand the premise... the hypothetical "line in the sand" is a metaphor for the fact that if the company crosses it then the individual steps back and draws another line.

                For us the line became permanent when the crowds turned the park into a zoo every weekend. The thought was "maybe get AP's in the off season (October)" but here it is October and there are plenty of TR's showing the park filled to the berm with people. I understand the belief that the park should be enjoyed by all who can afford admission. However if I have a tremendous crowd when I get to the parking structure. Another large crowd when I get to the trams. Yet another crowd when I hit the security checkpoint. Even larger crowds standing waiting for the gates to open. And then I wade through a sea of people clinging to my young family as we are swept down Main Street at the mob's pace. I'm sorry... too many people... that was my breaking point.

                You can attempt to justify it by saying Fastpass pushed people out into the walkways. You can show that the birthday promotional and monthly AP's brought a massive amount of people in. You could show how the 2fer was morphed into the 3 for $99 deal and everyone showed up. I really don't care about the "why", all I know is that the magic for me is diminished when there are massive crowds at every turn.
                "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

                sigpic

                "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Where's your line in the sand?

                  Originally posted by Peoplemover Priit View Post
                  If I'm having a wonderful time in the park with my friends, I am not going to storm off in outrage because they are selling Starbucks coffee. You just have accept it. If you don't like it, that sucks for you.







                  Yeah, don't like it, don't buy it! It really is that simple!

                  I don't think Mickey will be standing on Main St. with a gun forcing people to enter the store and buy some!

                  :lmao:

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Where's your line in the sand?

                    Opening up any non-Disney store ANYWHERE in the Parks would make me feel bad. =/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Where's your line in the sand?

                      Originally posted by TrevorD View Post
                      Opening day brand name sponsored stores:
                      Bank of America,
                      Bekins Van Lines Locker Area,

                      Carnation Ice Cream Parlor ,
                      Gibson Greeting Cards,

                      Even Walt didnt do what Walt would never stand for!
                      In almost every case, those enterprises existed during the turn of the 19th Century, so they functioned more as product placement. Coca-Cola, General Electric, and several other strategic allies of Walt Disney all have brands and histories that were substantially tied to that period in American life.

                      Institutional patronships require closely fitting the brand with the venue and vice versa. And, while Starbucks is currently a market leader, there are significant problems with the trademark that its inclusion on Main Street, U.S.A. only accentuates.

                      In many ways, Starbucks is like McDonald's, and the same criticisms of oversaturation and commodification that trademark elicited may be a potential liability for Disneyland with the coffee brewer, as well.

                      Hills Bros., Nescafe, and other brands didn't have the same problem because they did not represent coffee bars and other establishments that exist in overabundance throughout the outside world. So, much will depend on how well Disney actually integrates the products into the parks.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Where's your line in the sand?

                        I would draw the line at actually making us drink that bitter stuff.
                        Drinking Starbucks should be the reason given for why Madame Leota won't shut up.
                        Offering Starbucks to the Indians should be why the settler was murdered and his cabin burned.
                        Starbucks should be held responsible for the Star Tours vehicle jumping the track.
                        The lady chasing the pirate in a circle should be holding a Venti Caramel Latte with soy milk and 2 packets of Splenda. The look of horror on his face tells the story.
                        Mr. Toad driving under a train and ending up in hell could be attributed to too much caffeine.
                        The Upjohn Pharmacy could have offered a choice of either leeches or Starbucks Fair Trade beans.
                        If they really want to scare people to death, the Yeti on the Matterhorn should be offering samples of pumpkin frappucino.
                        I would draw the line again at "Mad Tazo Party Presented by Starbucks"
                        Last edited by Bob Weaver; 10-18-2009, 08:28 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Where's your line in the sand?

                          Conflicting imagery is another potential problem.

                          When I think of "Starbucks," I think of Seattle, the '90's, and a marketer's absurd pretentiousness that is, at once, bourgeois and vulgar.

                          How those strong impressions of the Starbucks brand can be made to relate to Main Street, U.S.A. is anyone's guess. Let's just hope that the sizes will be written in English.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Where's your line in the sand?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Where's your line in the sand?

                              It's not what it was nor and it hasn't been for a long tome, but people will always go, bitch about it and keep going.

                              That being said, the park can not stay stagnant. It's not a museum. It has to change and grow. You can't please everyone. If the changes please the majority and keep them, coming then the bottom line has been met.

                              The starbucks on main street doesn't bother me. I admit changing from real plates to black flimsy plastic plates was annoying and I choose not to dine there now. (riverbelle)

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Re: Where's your line in the sand?

                                It's coffee. Going to take a lot more than that to offend me.
                                My line in the sand would be taking out the Emporium and putting in a Walmart
                                Janette


                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Re: Where's your line in the sand?

                                  Originally posted by SCUBAbe View Post
                                  It's not what it was nor and it hasn't been for a long tome, but people will always go, bitch about it and keep going.
                                  People are indisputably less inclined now to pay a premium to visit Disneyland.

                                  I live in southern California, and I haven't been there in years, partly because it just doesn't feel right. That sense is the sum total of thousands of Starbucks-on-Main-Street changes.

                                  Any time I even think about visiting, I find myself remembering the empty, soulless feeling that the Disney of today has done such a good job at engendering. So, I look elsewhere to spend my leisure time and my entertainment dollars. Southern California, particularly, is full of those opportunities.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Re: Where's your line in the sand?

                                    First of all I don't see any issue about having an "official" coffee for the DL Resort, just keep using coffee cups that reflect the DL resort. Just like how Orville Reddenbacher is DL's popcorn but the name and logo is not so obnoxiously in your face.

                                    But, Starbucks isn't the best rated coffee, I had heard that Dunkin' Donuts is better. You coffee drinkers will have to let me know, since I don't like coffee. BUT I have never been impressed with the pastries in that coffee shop, they just are plain awful. Why hasn't Disney improved they types of pastries in that shop?????
                                    Critter Country's a mess ev'r since the Country Bears were kicked out. Ya can't cover pooh with honey and 'spect people ta like it.
                                    An Adventurers It's Time to Put the Spotlight Back on Bring Back the REAL Disney Gallery
                                    Life for Me! ~ ~ ~ Melvin, Buff, and Max!!! ~~~~ Dump the Dream Suite!
                                    Meese-ka Moose-ka Mice-Chatter!

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                                    • #19
                                      Re: Where's your line in the sand?

                                      Originally posted by SCUBAbe View Post
                                      It's not what it was nor and it hasn't been for a long tome, but people will always go, bitch about it and keep going.

                                      That being said, the park can not stay stagnant. It's not a museum. It has to change and grow. You can't please everyone. If the changes please the majority and keep them, coming then the bottom line has been met.

                                      The starbucks on main street doesn't bother me. I admit changing from real plates to black flimsy plastic plates was annoying and I choose not to dine there now. (riverbelle)







                                      You speak the truth!

                                      And in so many ways!

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Re: Where's your line in the sand?

                                        Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                        I live in southern California, and I haven't been there in years, partly because it just doesn't feel right. That sense is the sum total of thousands of Starbucks-on-Main-Street changes.

                                        Any time I even think about visiting, I find myself remembering the empty, soulless feeling that the Disney of today has done such a good job at engendering. So, I look elsewhere to spend my leisure time and my entertainment dollars. Southern California, particularly, is full of those opportunities.
                                        Bingo. For me, the line in the sand was drawn last year.


                                        "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
                                        it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
                                        together with every variety of recreation and fun,
                                        designed to appeal to everyone."

                                        - Walt Disney

                                        "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
                                        - Michael Eisner

                                        "It's very symbiotic."
                                        - Bob Chapek

                                        Comment

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