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What would you replace Innoventions with?

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  • fkurucz
    replied
    Originally posted by dshimel
    NRE? New Ride Engineering?

    Unfortunatly, there are a pair of lawsuits that are going to have to be settled before M:S makes it into any other theme parks.
    Non recurring engineering. The design work.

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  • ModHatter
    replied
    Well, I'm just going to have to agree to disagree here... Yes, supposedly Lincoln will be returning. Largely, I suspect, because of vocal park fans who, while vocal, do not necessarily represent a very large portion of the general park-going public. Also, the attraction has a historical value. And of course, current management seems to be reversing the trend of closing attractions before a suitable replacement is found. If the 50th shoiw proved to be not only a winner, but one that would be durable beyond the 50th celebration itself, I suspect the "temporary" eplacement of Lincoln would become more permanent. Otherwise, there is Autopia/MBC/Subs, Innoventions, HISTA, PeopleMover, and the petting zoo to bring up to par, and a whole other park on the other side of the entrance plaza that require more immediate attention than Lincoln. But the fact that it is still here does not mean that it has not exceeded its shelf life.

    Similarly, Matt knows bad show, and letting the sorely neglected Tiki Room be seen by audiences for the 50th celebration is unacceptable. Again, we have the trifecta of vocal fans, historical value, and no more closed attractions.

    Shows may go on past their shelf lives. There are compelling reasons to keep existing shows that are underperforming. But, much as I want to see CoP return to Anaheim in some way, this isn't the way. To look at WDW, see that CoP is only seasonal and STILL isn't drawing decent crowds, see that it is one of those perpetually-dated attractions that the "future that never was" concept was attemtping to escape, and despite all that bring it to Disneyland... I just don't see any responsible management team putting this attraction in Tomorrowland.

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  • Jasondlnd
    replied
    Originally posted by ModHatter
    static AA shows actually don't have such a great track record at Disneyland. Country Bears are gone. Tiki Room is always rumored to be THIS close to shutting down. Lincoln has undergone numerous revisions, and speculation is that this show will not be coming back...
    After speaking with some folks over at Imagineering, I am told that the Lincoln show will return after the 50th, and as we speak, the Tiki Room is getting a complete overhaul, in efforts to restore it to its original splendor.

    As far as a shelf life of an AA show at Disneyland is concerned, the Tiki Room has lasted for 42 years, and the Country Bears lasted for 30 years. Lincoln has lasted for 40 years, and will continue to operate after the 50th anniversary. Shelf life of an AA attraction is usually long, as AAs cost a bit of money to produce and create.

    The only reason the original CoP closed at Disneyland was because it was moved to WDW. In 1974, with the Bicentennial of the USA just around the corner, America Sings opened to a mixed reaction. Some liked the new show, while others felt as though it was not a suitable replacement for the CoP in Anaheim.

    As time goes on, AA shows get updated/upgraded. The Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln is not the same show or even the same Animanatronic that went to the World's Fair. He has been upgraded at least four times since, and the show has been changed at least three times. The AAs in the Tiki Room are not the same ones that opened the show in 1963. The show has even been updated and shortened by about :30-:45.

    Even the CoP has been updated, once in 1971, once in the 1980s, and then again in 1994. The show that is currently playing at WDW is not the original.

    Because of the longevity of AA show attractions in Anaheim, it is a safe bet that the Carousel would have a fairly long life if it were to be reinstalled back in the Carousel Theater at Disneyland.

    Minor Tidbit about the original plans for the 50th tribute:
    Imagineering was tossing around ideas about what they would do with the area downstairs inside Innoventions after the 50th anniversary of Disneyland. One idea that was seriously considered was putting the CoP back in the Carousel building. Of course, this went away when the 50th anniversary project was moved to the Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln building.

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  • Nathanml42
    replied
    I think that they should pick a "Disney space related movie", such as Stitch, Tron, or Treasure Planet.

    Now I realize that I am really going out on a limb here, but here it goes.

    Give the Imagineers a blank check!!!!

    It is about time we knocked people's socks off, again!

    Stitch - has several options.

    Tron - can you imagine what the Imagineers could do with the racers!!!

    Treasure Planet - the space skateboard!!!

    I would love to see what could come of that???

    PS - Bag "Star TOURS" Make a real "Star Wars" themed ride. With Darth Vader, Chewbacca! The real thing!

    Leave a comment:


  • Orcatime
    replied
    I would replace it with a two-storied PM that would show a model of a futuristic city after going through Star Tours and Starcade's 2nd storyand then move on to Space Mountain and the rest of TL's tour.

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  • ModHatter
    replied
    Actually, something like small world has two advantages over a static show.
    1) It's not static. For whatever reason, the sensation of moving through an environment adds value to the attraction. It's also the ability to turn around in your seat and see things all around you. That's not really true of a stage show. A stage show is designed to keep you looking at all of the proper show elements when it wants you to look. Usually, you don't even have to move your head to see them all. And while it is true that CoP does have some brief sensations of motion, it is limited.

    2) Small World does, in fact, get a holiday overlay, so it's not always the same show. True, you can do the same with CoP, but the level of complexity compared to small world would require a lot more effort.

    As posted here or elsewhere, static AA shows actually don't have such a great track record at Disneyland. Country Bears are gone. Tiki Room is always rumored to be THIS close to shutting down. Lincoln has undergone numerous revisions, and speculation is that this show will not be coming back...

    So, we come back to a few major reasons why CoP is a bad choice.
    1) Shows simply don't have a long shelf life. That's the main reason Tomorrowland always seems to need redoing.
    2) AAs are, what, roughly 40 years old now. Not very Tomorrowland.
    3) The story is also lacking in the Tomorrowland department. I think the final scene at WDW is the same one I saw back in 88, and it felt pretty dated even then. It'd be fine if it were installed at the northern end of the proposed Residential Street/Edison Square, where it could serve as a second entrance into Tomorrowland. Otherwise, it just doesn't work..

    Leave a comment:


  • Jasondlnd
    replied
    Originally posted by Reaver
    In the summer, when there are pitiful few rides like Peoplemover or Inner Space to sit down, relax and cool off in, I'd rather they just mace it a cool, shady place, with lots of hammocks. Paint Hawaiian landscapes on the wall, play some ocean waves sounds and some slack key guitar - call it the "Virtual Vacation" ride.
    I am in agreement that Disneyland needs a few more attractions that the guests can sit down, relax, and cool off in. Ironically, however, such a place kind of exists inside of Innoventions (without the hammocks, of course). Upstairs, they have an area called the "Pioneer Virtual Resort", where you sit down for about five minutes and enjoy the landscape of either a Victorian Castle, a rustic cabin, or a shack on the beach. Of course, you have to watch and listen to a virtual bellhop give you a sales pitch about Pioneer products, but ah, such is life in a free virtual timeshare getaway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jasondlnd
    replied
    Originally posted by ModHatter

    And, when they've seen it again, will they keep coming back? Even Andrew Lloyd Webber shows close eventually. And that has the thrill of live performance. Each show is different. But an AA show would only have "improvs" during a malfunction. So I'd be inclined to think that if Disney just made a professional DVD of the attraction, complete with some special features, people would be satisfied.
    Disneyland is built on repeat experiences. Every time someone goes to watch the Tiki Room, it is going to remain the same. Every time someone goes to ride Soarin' over California, it is going to remain the same. Every time someone goes to ride It's a Small World, it is going to remain the same.

    For the most part, attractions are static, offering repeat experiences. Granted, there are a few attractions that can potentially offer different experiences every time you visit, mainly Buzz Lightyear's Astro Blasters, Davy Crockett's Explorer Canoes, the Jungle Cruise, the Autopia, Roger Rabbit's Car Toon Spin, the Mad Tea Party, Indiana Jones Adventure, and Muppet*Vision 3-D. Each of these attractions offers something slightly different from the other attractions at the resort. Buzz Lightyear's Astro Blasters, the Autopia, the Mad Tea Party, and Roger Rabbit's Car Toon Spin offer guest interactivity; the Jungle Cruise, Explorer Canoes and Muppet*Vision offer the added element of live performance, and the Indiana Jones Adventure operates off of three different ride profiles that are mixed and matched randomly during each journey.

    So, what keeps the lines long at It's a Small World? Why are the lines so long at Peter Pan's Flight? Why is there usually a long wait to board the Alice attraction? Why is the Tiki Garden usually filled with people, even during a slow day? Why are there sometimes long lines at Soarin' over California on an otherwise uncrowded day at DCA? Each of these attractions are unchanging, repeat experiences.

    The reason goes beyond the desire to see something different at each showing. People like to sit down and watch something charming and entertaining that will fill them with emotion and enjoyment. To go even further, most people would rather watch a show or ride something that they don't necessarily have to wait all that long for. That was the beauty of the Carousel of Progress/America Sings. People could practically walk right in with minimal waiting, experience a ride, and exit humming the theme song, feeling as though they had genuinely enjoyed themselves. For most, a hassle-free experience like that is worth repeating.

    To be perfectly honest, most people have video of the CoP, and I am sure that home videos of the attraction are available online. Heck, I have multiple videos of the CoP from WDW. A video only does so much; it can't replace the actual experience of watching the show live. To illustrate my point, a video of the Main Street Electrical Parade was produced in 1996 and sold at Disneyland. Although the video had decent sales, it did not replace the actual experience of watching the parade live. As a result, the parade re-opened at DCA in 2002.

    Although I don't stand outside of the attractions with a counter in my hand, statistics at other static, unchanging AA-type attractions suggest that guests would return again and again to the CoP if it were placed back in Anaheim.

    As the building is now, guests are not as inclined to visit again and again, regardless of new exhibits or changes to the technologies on display, because it is not what they want to see. Often, it has been said that Innoventions has no "heart", that it is just a static building with very few entertaining elements to it. What the guests at Disneyland would come to see time and time again would be an entertaining and charming show filled with heart, such as the CoP. Beyond having a show filled with charm, the CoP would fit perfectly with the theming of having Innoventions upstairs.

    Leave a comment:


  • Disneyland Lover
    replied
    You know that Disneyland history exibit on Main Street, they're taking that out after the aniversery event. I'd move that to the current Innovations building after the aniversery.

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  • ModHatter
    replied
    Originally posted by Reaver
    In the summer, when there are pitiful few rides like Peoplemover or Inner Space to sit down, relax and cool off in, I'd rather they just mace it a cool, shady place, with lots of hammocks. Paint Hawaiian landscapes on the wall, play some ocean waves sounds and some slack key guitar - call it the "Virtual Vacation" ride. Just kick back and relax for 10 or 15, then head back into the park. It would be more fun than innoventions, anyway...
    Yeah, don't things like Timekeeper and Innovention qualify as variations of "the line ride"?

    While I'm probably not a fan of the literal hammock idea, I do think there's a nugget of goodness there. Speed Tunnel used to have fans. I don't see why you couldn't, say, have a ride based on Vacationland 2055. Your Omnimover is like a giant Barcalounger, or maybe one of those big cushy padded wicker bowl seats. Shortly after you board, you enter a speed tunnel where you are converted to digital information and sent to your vacation destination. Alternately, you "fly" through a sped-up projection to your destination. Either way, you get a nice cool breeze from the fans along the way.

    Obviously, that's not a whole attraction unto itself, but it's a start. Of course, Speed Tunnel could also be used for a Time Machine ride, or maybe a tour of different future cities. Sort of the Around the World in 80 Minutes concept... It would be nice to just sit back, enjoy the cool air, and be taken on a futuristic journey.

    Leave a comment:


  • Reaver
    replied
    In the summer, when there are pitiful few rides like Peoplemover or Inner Space to sit down, relax and cool off in, I'd rather they just mace it a cool, shady place, with lots of hammocks. Paint Hawaiian landscapes on the wall, play some ocean waves sounds and some slack key guitar - call it the "Virtual Vacation" ride. Just kick back and relax for 10 or 15, then head back into the park. It would be more fun than innoventions, anyway...

    Leave a comment:


  • Giant Panda
    replied
    Make it the queue and part of the E-ticketized peoplemover ride ...then where the beamway goes into the BLAB building, it can instead go over the top of the tL Terrace to where the old Peoplemover loaded (assuming of course that the beamway was removed in the BLAB building ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Druggas
    replied
    This just off of the top of my noggin. How about a cafe where the scenery changes or shows change while you're eating. You know, for being a retard, that's a pretty good idea. That shock therapy is really starting to kick in!

    Leave a comment:


  • dshimel
    replied
    Originally posted by ModHatter
    Besides, one of the lessons of Pooh is that toons aren't enough to drive dark rides outside of Fantasyland. Is there something about the movie and series that suggest the ride's content or ride mechanism?
    Snow and Pooh, alwyas having very short lies except on the busiest of days, show that toons aren't enough to drive a dark ride inside Fantasyland.

    Oversized vehicles taking a plodding ride past flat painted sets and rigid characters.

    Lilo and Stitch could be a grat ride if it has "something special"....

    Pirates and mansion would have sucked if they were just painted plywood and fiberglass figures.

    Leave a comment:


  • ModHatter
    replied
    I'm not sure if Tomorrowland needs more toons.

    Besides, one of the lessons of Pooh is that toons aren't enough to drive dark rides outside of Fantasyland. Is there something about the movie and series that suggest the ride's content or ride mechanism?

    Leave a comment:


  • E-ticket
    replied
    I'd say a bright, shiny new E-ticket would be the most satisfying, but it might pose difficulties with proximity to Space Mountain. It's literally steps away, so would it pose a crowd control nightmare to have 2 E-tickets so close to each other?

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  • stitch's great escape 101
    replied
    well a lilo and stitch dark ride was what i was thinking

    Leave a comment:


  • CaptainCM
    replied
    If it were up to me, Carousel would have never left. It's on the top of my list whenever I visit WDW-MK. America Sings was better than innovations, and I think i'm safe in saying that the Tomorrowland Offices was a better use of that area than Innovations is today. But, maybe Honda will bring some new life to the so-far-failed innovations project.

    Leave a comment:


  • DisneySavor
    replied
    I think an interactive 'attraction' is the best opportunity for this building. I like the COP and Innoventions upper floor ideas, but I don't think that will do.

    Star Tours has been a great asset for the company, and I think coming up with something equivelant, if a little more interactive might be the key. Howabout having guests enter a variety of vehicles, each with it's own screen 'windows' and allowing them to independently 'drive/fly/boat' across an interactive futureistic environment/city? So for example, a family of four might get in a four seater, a larger group might get a bus, and smaller 2 and single seaters would be arrayed in the middle areas. Programmed limits and autopilot functions could be installed to create the immersion necessary with a 30 second start up and ending sequence ensuring users are returned "virtually" to the same spot.

    Sure it might be little more than a videogame, but an entrancing one if the illusions created are significant enough.

    Further, as technology advances, upgrades are mostly software which is relatively cheap and has implications and uses outside of the park.

    Leave a comment:


  • ModHatter
    replied
    Originally posted by Jasondlnd
    The CoP is the only attraction that has been gone from Disneyland for 30+ years that continues to get guest complaints at Guest Relations due to its removal....So...why not just give the people in California what they want? In 1998, Pressler thought that he was doing just that by giving the public a trade show themed to remind people of the CoP, but he was way off the mark. People in California are yearning for the genuine return of the Carousel of Progress, not just an homage...

    Coupled with Innoventions on the second level, the Carousel would be able to operate year-round, as it would attract a constant flow of guests of all ages to Innoventions.
    Well, for one thing, I don't think Paul honestly thought he was giving people what they wanted. I'm more inclined to believe he was trying to give the shareholders what they wanted.

    Meanwhile... yes, people may still complain about losing CoP. But, is it really enough to operate the attraction anywhere near capacity? And, when they've seen it again, will they keep coming back? Even Andrew Lloyd Webber shows close eventually. And that has the thrill of live performance. Each show is different. But an AA show would only have "improvs" during a malfunction. So I'd be inclined to think that if Disney just made a professional DVD of the attraction, complete with some special features, people would be satisfied.

    CoP didn't last all that long at Disneyland. And, back in the age of ticket books, it was a free attraction.So I don't know how well it would really do post-ticket system. And, to go back to the number of guext complaints, let's remember that, for about 8 years, the Carousel Theater was closed to the public. That's sure to generate complaints. Then look what opened in its place?

    So, to say that people would rather have an attraction that hasn't existed in Anaheim for 30 years than Innoventions suggests that Innoventions isn't going to get more people into CoP, nor is CoP likely to get more people into Innoventions.

    Let's say that, every hour, CoP is able to fill one of its 6 theaters. With each theater making 3 rotations per hour, that makes about 720 guests per hour. Times 12 hours per day, 365 days per year, that's over 3 million people who have to be interested enough in this ride just to get it to 17% of its capacity. And, for the costs it would take to bring it back, they would want it to stay open for more than just a year, too... Personally, I'd love to see it back, but it's hard for me to see it winning th necessary numbers game to do so.

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