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  • #41
    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Originally posted by biggsworth View Post
    I haven't read the whole thread but it comes down to simple mth. If they make money off it they stay. I would say if one of the teir isn't pulling it's weight then it would go away. IMO that's the cheapest pass they offer.

    The rumor about APers not spending as much as turoists is just a rumor. None of us know that number or ever will. Even CMs will barely have this information not as a whole. Someone in the corporate office can produce this report and it would never be shared publically.

    I know I spend a lot with my AP on merchandise especially pins/art/clothes and I am not alone. the people in those long lines for limited edition items and events aren't tourists.

    In the eyes of a corporate entity like Disney is the more people in your "store" the more they spend. They are quite happy with their filled parks. It was different when Walt was alive because he would spend his own money to keep the park going, or not puch as much ephasis on making money all the time . That pretty much won't happen today unless Richard Branson buys Disneyland
    True we may not know how much they spend at the park but they've already spent $125 more than an annual pass holder (after going to DLR enough to pay for their pass) just to get into the park.
    "If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that"




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    • #42
      Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

      Originally posted by biggsworth View Post
      The rumor about APers not spending as much as turoists is just a rumor. None of us know that number or ever will. Even CMs will barely have this information not as a whole. Someone in the corporate office can produce this report and it would never be shared publically.
      It is not rumor, it is the logic of how seasonal and annual passes work. The whole point of offering a season or annual pass is to get people in quickly with the hope that overall, spending a little each trip, that it offsets the discounted admission and generates more revenue. At the Disneyland Resort, the need to offer an incentive to generate visitation is diminishing. Combine that with its role as a tourist destination and not just as a local park, and yes, the situation is only pushing towards one where Annual Passes are a less profitable.

      This is why the Annual Passes at the Tokyo Disney Resort are so expensive. Admission is cheaper and there is a strong expectation that people will make purchases when they visit.

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      • #43
        Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

        Originally posted by UbIwerks View Post
        Is there evidence somewhere (actual figures from Disney and not fan conjecture) that AP holders spend less? I'm just curious as I see this trotted out a lot and I'm interested in the source.
        I'm no going to dig through the net to find a source, but you can take my word for it if you would like. It's related but not about APHs. Back in the Eisner days he told shareholders that the parks are increasing revenue, WDW and DL. Revenue was increasing in two ways. Increased attendance. Way more important was that guests were spending more in the parks than to get in the parks. Then in WDW guests were also staying in the new hotels but that revenue wasn't included in these statements about parks.

        Originally posted by gary94080 View Post
        I think that they may either eliminate or raise the Southern California AP passes before they eliminate them all together.
        Originally posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
        I think the OP maybe heard that the CALIFORNIA RESIDENT ones are going away, which Al has suggested may be the case.
        I doubt that it would be eliminated, but possibly renamed. A lot of places have special passes to even out attendance that DLR almost does and may try. Weekday Passes. Then some places have the more expensive but more useful Weekend Pass to compliment it. This can be an alternative to making passes with blackout days.

        It may be very important to market a product as Local Only, or Your Thing. This is what resident passes achieve. Increases value by making things exclusive.
        Be Cool Stay in School!
        Next year I'm trying for a summer internship at Stark Industries.

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        • #44
          Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

          By having the discount attached to APs for food & merch they're definitely tracking spending. I agree with above poster's who mention Disney will get rid of the AP classifications that aren't spending enough.

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          • #45
            Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

            Originally posted by christianAdam View Post
            You also have to factor in that those guests coming in for a 3 or 4 or 5 day park visit also need to stay at a hotel so that also opens another oppurtunity to gain more profit by offering a stay at one of the DLR hotels. Yes an AP probably would not visit the park as much if the AP was wiped clean but that would also guarentee that every person coming into the park would be all profit all the time. It would bring back an actual "off season" which would require lower staffing which in turn would also bring down the daily cost of operations

            I think I answered the other part of your post in the post above.

            What i think is that cost of park operations does not increase proportionally to increased bodies in the parks. The staffing and the rate attractions run doesn't look much more increased when the park is say at 5/10 versus a 2/10 crowd. So i believe disney isn't paying that much more when attendance increases.

            At this point, the numbers most certainly add up to where they are making more profit than if there was no AP program regardless of how much more or less it cost to run the park. Otherwise APs would be gone real quick. Just look at the short notice they gave us regarding the 150 price hike. They gave 2 days warning!

            As for hotels and in park spending, Not every tourist stays on site. There are a lot more rooms on harbor than there are on resort property so not every tourist shells out the big hotel bucks. Also, APs tend to buy a lot of limited edition merch like pins, art and the like. Think about your own example of one more disney day. I got there at opening and walked in the emporium and I had trouble finding the exclusive shirts in the sizes I needed. Those things sold out like crazy! Lines for the exclusive food were HUGE!! By 3:00 am when I left, The ticket booths were filled up using all of the chain link switchbacks! OMDD actually brought in more customers so a lot of money was made off of the event.

            APs spend a lot in the long run. Probably many of us spend more than the average tourist does while contributing little to operating costs relative to how often we go. Especially when you consider how few rides and services APs use on slow days and after work hours. LOL a lot of us see a wait time longer than 30 min and we say "....we'll do it next time." )
            In the quest for quality, I have no problem with the characters footing the bill.

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            • #46
              Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

              Highly doubt this is true. Like everyone has already said, they'd lose money. Annual passholders are the resort's main clientele. And those who go for one day. They'd be making a HUGE mistake. Annual passholders spend their money on merchandise. That should be enough, especially since they just raised the prices of the passes.
              Princess of Agrabah and Queen of Never Land

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              • #47
                Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                Originally posted by Pinrar View Post
                What i think is that cost of park operations does not increase proportionally to increased bodies in the parks. The staffing and the rate attractions run doesn't look much more increased when the park is say at 5/10 versus a 2/10 crowd. So i believe disney isn't paying that much more when attendance increases.

                At this point, the numbers most certainly add up to where they are making more profit than if there was no AP program regardless of how much more or less it cost to run the park. Otherwise APs would be gone real quick. Just look at the short notice they gave us regarding the 150 price hike. They gave 2 days warning!

                As for hotels and in park spending, Not every tourist stays on site. There are a lot more rooms on harbor than there are on resort property so not every tourist shells out the big hotel bucks. Also, APs tend to buy a lot of limited edition merch like pins, art and the like. Think about your own example of one more disney day. I got there at opening and walked in the emporium and I had trouble finding the exclusive shirts in the sizes I needed. Those things sold out like crazy! Lines for the exclusive food were HUGE!! By 3:00 am when I left, The ticket booths were filled up using all of the chain link switchbacks! OMDD actually brought in more customers so a lot of money was made off of the event.

                APs spend a lot in the long run. Probably many of us spend more than the average tourist does while contributing little to operating costs relative to how often we go. Especially when you consider how few rides and services APs use on slow days and after work hours. LOL a lot of us see a wait time longer than 30 min and we say "....we'll do it next time." )
                As another poster said, you have to look at the fine line and although on paper a 5/10 might not seem as big as a hike from a 2/10 but you have to think about all costs on a daily operating scale. If the park has a higher number of AP holders that are getting in free then where does the profit come in? From food services, to park services, to parking lot attendants, all that has to be taken into account. Like I said before, after your pass eventually pays for itself, on EVERY visit you would need to spend at minimum $125 a day at the park just to cover the ticket price.

                I think the AP is seeing its final hoorah soon. If you really think about it, it not only eats up a profit but it becomes a ripple effect...for instance...it is no secret that people are constantly up in arms with the quality of some of the attractions at the park, with no real off-season due to more locals flooding in during that time no rides really get the time to get the refurbs they deserve...gotta keep the guests happy, right? it could also be a reason why some of the cast members aren't always the happiest people to deal with at the park. AP holders have some of the worst case of self-entitlement I know of (again, I am just as guilty at times) and to constantly have to deal with that on a day to day basis would kill my attitude and fun while working there.

                I agree that Ap'ers do love their limited edition merch but that's once in awhile, not an every day occurance and yes OMDD brought in a lot of guests looking to score that exclusive merch but at the same time the vast majority were, again, AP holders who by now I'm sure were on DLR's dime for admission and so they lost profit as far as how many actual paying guests could've bought the same merch over the AP rush that came in and wiped them out. You bought a shirt at $35 but yet Disney paid $125 for you to get in that day....I still don't see how you made a profit. Yes the ticket booths were all filled because the park was at capacity and the again the vast majority of people in the park (yes I was there that night) were AP holders while the paying guests just sat in line waiting to get a ticket and most walked away empty handed...again...profit loss...

                I think that APs spend less in the long run, the more you go the less you need to buy. By now when I go I could do a full day with my daughter and I and spend only $50 at most. Toursits have to by their tickets, pay for parking, and then spend money for food and merch, who is spending more in the end?

                I think a good middle-ground would be to offer a 5-day park-hopper and make it good for the entire year
                "If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that"




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                • #48
                  Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                  Originally posted by jasmineray View Post
                  Highly doubt this is true. Like everyone has already said, they'd lose money. Annual passholders are the resort's main clientele. And those who go for one day. They'd be making a HUGE mistake. Annual passholders spend their money on merchandise. That should be enough, especially since they just raised the prices of the passes.
                  The demographics are shifting. More people are willing to pay for daily admission. No need to let somebody in at a reduced cost when somebody else will gladly pay more for that spot.

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                  • #49
                    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                    It's anecdotal evidence in the face of contrasting opinions, but I'm a premium annual passholder, I've gone oodles of times this year (including OMDD) and I spend next to *nothing* in the parks.

                    I can probably name all the things I've bought in the past nine months -- three sourdough soupbowl meals, two loaves of sourdough bread, one Tomorrowland terrace lunch (which they got wrong), one $3 soda, pressed about 5 pennies (those with Donald Duck), one HM pressed quarter, a HM T-shirt and CD and some colored glass pirate stones and a plastic spyglass (for my niece's birthday).

                    My visits are usually 5-6 hours long. If I'm thirsty I'll stop at AM/PM on Ball before entering and earlier in the year when I stayed longer I was going to one of the fast food places on Euclid for lunch.

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                    • #50
                      Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                      Originally posted by jasmineray View Post
                      Highly doubt this is true. Like everyone has already said, they'd lose money. Annual passholders are the resort's main clientele. And those who go for one day. They'd be making a HUGE mistake. Annual passholders spend their money on merchandise. That should be enough, especially since they just raised the prices of the passes.
                      Originally posted by lazyboy97O View Post
                      The demographics are shifting. More people are willing to pay for daily admission. No need to let somebody in at a reduced cost when somebody else will gladly pay more for that spot.
                      Exactly.

                      Disney pays $125 for you to get in...you spend a total of $40 at the park...Disney is still looking at a deficit of $85 per guest. Multiply that by lets say at any given time 2,000 AP holders visiting for the day and you're at a loss of $170,000 per day.
                      "If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that"




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                      • #51
                        Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                        Originally posted by Pinrar View Post
                        What i think is that cost of park operations does not increase proportionally to increased bodies in the parks. The staffing and the rate attractions run doesn't look much more increased when the park is say at 5/10 versus a 2/10 crowd. So i believe disney isn't paying that much more when attendance increases.

                        At this point, the numbers most certainly add up to where they are making more profit than if there was no AP program regardless of how much more or less it cost to run the park. Otherwise APs would be gone real quick. Just look at the short notice they gave us regarding the 150 price hike. They gave 2 days warning!

                        As for hotels and in park spending, Not every tourist stays on site. There are a lot more rooms on harbor than there are on resort property so not every tourist shells out the big hotel bucks. Also, APs tend to buy a lot of limited edition merch like pins, art and the like. Think about your own example of one more disney day. I got there at opening and walked in the emporium and I had trouble finding the exclusive shirts in the sizes I needed. Those things sold out like crazy! Lines for the exclusive food were HUGE!! By 3:00 am when I left, The ticket booths were filled up using all of the chain link switchbacks! OMDD actually brought in more customers so a lot of money was made off of the event.

                        APs spend a lot in the long run. Probably many of us spend more than the average tourist does while contributing little to operating costs relative to how often we go. Especially when you consider how few rides and services APs use on slow days and after work hours. LOL a lot of us see a wait time longer than 30 min and we say "....we'll do it next time." )
                        But what if APs are driving attendance up to a 8/10 day from a 4/10 day? WOuld that increase the park's costs?

                        I am a Premium AP holder. And having just purchased it, I paid the new higher price. But I spend very little on merchandise (I am a Disneyland fan, not a Disney fan), so maybe I'm part of the problem? And even though I spend a fair amount on food, with my discount the profit margin can't be that great.
                        "She's taking everything. She's taking the house, she's taking the kid, she's taking the dog. IT'S NOT EVEN HER DOG. IT'S MY DOG! SHE'S TAKING . . . MY DOG!"
                        - Ron Livingston, "Band of Brothers"

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                        • #52
                          Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                          I spend atleast one day a week in the park , vacationing people would need to stay atleast 2 months at the resort to spend what I spend there
                          Im here for fun and info not be a bully! Carsland here I come:yea:

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                          • #53
                            Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                            Originally posted by Trav1Disney View Post
                            I spend atleast one day a week in the park , vacationing people would need to stay atleast 2 months at the resort to spend what I spend there
                            Ok, but if you don't mind me asking, what AP do you have?

                            Let's just say you own a premium AP, so let's do a break down.

                            you go once a week so that would = 52 times a year
                            we could subtract the first 5 visits because that would actually pay for the cost of your AP so we're at 47 times a year.

                            so 47 times a year multiplied by $125 each visit that Disney is paying out = $5,875 you add free parking to that and it becomes $6,580.

                            That $6,580 could be spent effortlessly for one family of four on a 4 day trip to the DLR. So their one visit has to cover the costs that your 47 trips Disneyland paid for.

                            Therefore I would say that no...a family could vacation there for 5 days and EASILY cover the cost of how much someone would go once a week
                            Last edited by christianAdam; 10-02-2012, 10:40 AM.
                            "If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that"




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                            • #54
                              Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                              Originally posted by lazyboy97O View Post
                              It is not rumor, it is the logic of how seasonal and annual passes work. The whole point of offering a season or annual pass is to get people in quickly with the hope that overall, spending a little each trip, that it offsets the discounted admission and generates more revenue. At the Disneyland Resort, the need to offer an incentive to generate visitation is diminishing. Combine that with its role as a tourist destination and not just as a local park, and yes, the situation is only pushing towards one where Annual Passes are a less profitable.

                              This is why the Annual Passes at the Tokyo Disney Resort are so expensive. Admission is cheaper and there is a strong expectation that people will make purchases when they visit.
                              Ok...they get ride of Aps....what if most the people (like my self) cut down on going and only go once....a year or once every two years?

                              That would mean they loss profit right? I paid 500 bucks upfront....two meals a trip, hot coco every few trips, dessert, and merchandise?

                              So how would they make more....by making 1 million people go less?
                              Happy Halloween!!!

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                              • #55
                                Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                                I`ll give you some tourist spending numbers to toss around. We just got back from 5 days, spendind 4 nights at the GCH , two rooms at $300/ night each . I stayed two exra nights. The six of us ate all our meals at the resort, either Downtown Disney, in the parks or room service, The character breakfast at the Storytellers Cafe for six was $145. Other meals $60 -100 each breakfast, lunch, and dinner . i carried a backpack with bottled water to save money but they went fast so we were paying $3.25 a pop for water/soda most of the day. I have a premium pass to take advantage of the discounts but for the others I had to buy 5 day hoppers at $290 each for the other five. We bought souveners for ourselves and gifts for relatives at home.We used to come once a year but now every other year because of the cost.
                                My biggest gripe is the crowds. We didn`t have the luxury of seeing a wait time longer than 30 min and saying we`ll do it next time.. The EMH we got was great, no crowds first thing, but by early afternoon when I suspect the locals show up after school and after work, it got miserable.. On the other hand , if I lived in Socal , or the park was up here and I was paying $7/mon for an AP , I would be going every chance I could,too

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                                • #56
                                  Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                                  I have been and APer for 4 years... my bf and I go almost every week. We spend about maybe $25 together at the park in a month. They are not making much money off of us (tho they got us with BVS and Carland Merch over the summer!). I would really LOVE to see what the parks would look like without the APs.

                                  growing up, we went to disneyland for special occasions, or with friends only a couple times a year, and I remember we would spend like $60 each in the parks. We stayed all day, ate in the parks, and would buy souvenirs! I just wonder how it would feel if everyone else that was there in the parks with me, was there because they saved up and went for a special time and not just as a "Hey lets go hang out at disneyland instead of a mall"

                                  You have to admit, it would be and interesting experience! If they got rid of AP it would help with crowding, then maybe they could lower admission prices so as to entice more people pay for the day and it would allow local families to afford to go more often! It could be a good idea.

                                  but then again I will miss my AP benefits dearly...

                                  but if prices were like $60 again, I would pay that instead and just go every other month instead of every other week!

                                  I doubt it would happen, but it would be interesting to test!

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                                  • #57
                                    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                                    Do all the math you want if they didn't have the pass they would make about $300 a year off me. I stay at grand Californian a few times a year , eat all year , shop all year , Christmas shop there , and buy collectibles , just last week a $500 painting. I spend well over $10,000 a year there. If my premium pass wasn't making Disney money they would of eliminated it long ago. I spend about 70-100 days a year in the park. If ap's didn't exist DCA would of tanked long ago because we were the ones suporting it threw its rough time.

                                    ---------- Post added 10-02-2012 at 12:02 PM ----------

                                    Also I go to Florida once a year and drop another $7,000 there
                                    Im here for fun and info not be a bully! Carsland here I come:yea:

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                                    • #58
                                      Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                                      Originally posted by christianAdam View Post
                                      As another poster said, you have to look at the fine line and although on paper a 5/10 might not seem as big as a hike from a 2/10 but you have to think about all costs on a daily operating scale. If the park has a higher number of AP holders that are getting in free then where does the profit come in? From food services, to park services, to parking lot attendants, all that has to be taken into account. Like I said before, after your pass eventually pays for itself, on EVERY visit you would need to spend at minimum $125 a day at the park just to cover the ticket price.

                                      I think the AP is seeing its final hoorah soon. If you really think about it, it not only eats up a profit but it becomes a ripple effect...for instance...it is no secret that people are constantly up in arms with the quality of some of the attractions at the park, with no real off-season due to more locals flooding in during that time no rides really get the time to get the refurbs they deserve...gotta keep the guests happy, right? it could also be a reason why some of the cast members aren't always the happiest people to deal with at the park. AP holders have some of the worst case of self-entitlement I know of (again, I am just as guilty at times) and to constantly have to deal with that on a day to day basis would kill my attitude and fun while working there.

                                      I agree that Ap'ers do love their limited edition merch but that's once in awhile, not an every day occurance and yes OMDD brought in a lot of guests looking to score that exclusive merch but at the same time the vast majority were, again, AP holders who by now I'm sure were on DLR's dime for admission and so they lost profit as far as how many actual paying guests could've bought the same merch over the AP rush that came in and wiped them out. You bought a shirt at $35 but yet Disney paid $125 for you to get in that day....I still don't see how you made a profit. Yes the ticket booths were all filled because the park was at capacity and the again the vast majority of people in the park (yes I was there that night) were AP holders while the paying guests just sat in line waiting to get a ticket and most walked away empty handed...again...profit loss...

                                      I think that APs spend less in the long run, the more you go the less you need to buy. By now when I go I could do a full day with my daughter and I and spend only $50 at most. Toursits have to by their tickets, pay for parking, and then spend money for food and merch, who is spending more in the end?

                                      I think a good middle-ground would be to offer a 5-day park-hopper and make it good for the entire year

                                      But we cant look at it as disney is losing 125 a day. First of all because no one is going to go once a month with prices at 125 so disney is not losing 125 after the 5th visit because no one is going to go that often without the pass. Second it cost no where near $125 a person to run the park on a given day and still make a profit.

                                      The way it needs to be calculated is the price of AP plus total spent on merch and food divided by number a visits a year. Compare that number to the average cost to run the park divided by the number of guests that day and you have your answer whether or not an average AP holder pulls their weight and generates a profit relative to how often they go.

                                      Its all speculation at this point but I'd bet that on average the AP program generates enough money to make a profit over the extra burden the program puts on the park and its operations cost.

                                      With this calculation I imagine that most APs do in fact spend enough in merch, food, and their AP price in a year to pay for the cost they add to run the park.
                                      In the quest for quality, I have no problem with the characters footing the bill.

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                                      • #59
                                        Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                                        Originally posted by Trav1Disney View Post
                                        Do all the math you want if they didn't have the pass they would make about $300 a year off me. I stay at grand Californian a few times a year , eat all year , shop all year , Christmas shop there , and buy collectibles , just last week a $500 painting. I spend well over $10,000 a year there. If my premium pass wasn't making Disney money they would of eliminated it long ago. I spend about 70-100 days a year in the park. If ap's didn't exist DCA would of tanked long ago because we were the ones suporting it threw its rough time.

                                        ---------- Post added 10-02-2012 at 12:02 PM ----------

                                        Also I go to Florida once a year and drop another $7,000 there



                                        You have to be the exception. How many APers paying $7/mon spend like you. I think they are more like the ones I saw bringing KFC with them

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                                        • #60
                                          Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                                          Originally posted by Jerryp49 View Post
                                          You have to be the exception. How many APers paying $7/mon spend like you. I think they are more like the ones I saw bringing KFC with them
                                          I do see a small point but you also should consider some people like me will only go to eat and walk around and go on no rides and I see no profit loss there or maybe go on a ride or 2 they are not losing a lot at that point. I think if you add up the attractions rode yearly by an ap it would be pretty low
                                          Im here for fun and info not be a bully! Carsland here I come:yea:

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