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  • #81
    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

    Visualize this. The cost of the annual pass covers all open dates per tier.
    If Disney expected the consumer to visit 5 times a year @ gate cost... Then they would issue punch cards and after the 5th visit, time for a new punch card.
    Doesn't make sense.

    The cost to run the park is far less than the amount generated daily by ticket sales. And let's say they find a deficit on, Thursdays...it is covered on Friday. This is a money making enterprise. They pay near minimum wage to a majority of their cm's.

    I have a premium AP. On our 5th visit, we celebrated. It "felt" like we accomplished the payoff. Having Pre-paid the AP(s) we are looser with our money EVERY time we visit.
    being from out of state, we stay near the park and boost the local economy. We spend in DLR, DCA and of course in DTD.

    If we lived locally, we'd still spend nearly the same amount of $... Maybe more and in more visits. We have family who hold AP and they run in and out of the parks to ride a ride, eat dinner, buy merchandise... Sometimes it's all day, half day or even less.

    The point is to get traffic in, then entice them to spend. It's how Casino's in Vegas operate.
    Not everyone is going to be a whale, but a majority will drop coin in a machine, buy drinks or even just but a deck of cards...or not. But they have paid for a room.

    It kind of felt like there was a little AP holder discrimination...from non AP holders...

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    • #82
      Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

      Originally posted by mekchin View Post
      I heard a rumor from that annual passes may be eliminated in 2013. The reason is because the average annual passholder does not spend as much money while in the parks as a tourist. I certainly hope this rumor is not true. Has anyone else heard this? I know if I can't buy an annual pass I will not go to the parks more than once a year. I will also stop collecting Disney. The bright side - I will save a lot of money!
      Where did you hear this?

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      • #83
        Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

        Originally posted by Pinrar View Post

        I cant speak for all AP holders but I know that the day they get rid of the AP, they can kiss $650 from the pass and the hundreds I spend a year at the park goodbye. Without the pass I will go maybe once a year and spend $125 on tickets and $60 on food and merch.
        I agree with this. Obviously I assume TDA has crunched the numbers and knows what the cost/benefit point is to offering APs vs. having a 1/2 empty park. While they can factor in a % of APs that won't come to the park as often if the AP is cancelled or modified they can't factor in the emotional aspect of what offending the APs would be. How many would switch to another park like Knott's or Six Flags just because they were angry?

        As others have said I think they'll cancel the local APs, and possibly modify the Premium or Deluxe. As an out of state AP holder we are probably not costing the park as much money as local APs. We stay in the area and eat in the park for over 1/2 of our meals.

        We would probably have a 4 day pass for $275. In those 4 days I assume we would spend $500 in the parks. $131/day per guest.

        Now we're going for 14 days minimum this year for $469. I assume we'll spend $1400 in the parks. So, yes, less per day but we're still spending $1288 more. $116/day per guest.

        Of course, I can't say the per guest daily rate that Disneyland needs to have to make a profit but they're obviously still making a profit off of us! If the AP is cancelled we'll stick to our 4 days a year. I assume they're hoping most people will keep coming as often as they were but I agree it's unlikely.

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        • #84
          Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

          Originally posted by DJS View Post
          Visualize this. The cost of the annual pass covers all open dates per tier.
          If Disney expected the consumer to visit 5 times a year @ gate cost... Then they would issue punch cards and after the 5th visit, time for a new punch card.
          Doesn't make sense.

          The cost to run the park is far less than the amount generated daily by ticket sales. And let's say they find a deficit on, Thursdays...it is covered on Friday. This is a money making enterprise. They pay near minimum wage to a majority of their cm's.

          I have a premium AP. On our 5th visit, we celebrated. It "felt" like we accomplished the payoff. Having Pre-paid the AP(s) we are looser with our money EVERY time we visit.
          being from out of state, we stay near the park and boost the local economy. We spend in DLR, DCA and of course in DTD.

          If we lived locally, we'd still spend nearly the same amount of $... Maybe more and in more visits. We have family who hold AP and they run in and out of the parks to ride a ride, eat dinner, buy merchandise... Sometimes it's all day, half day or even less.

          The point is to get traffic in, then entice them to spend. It's how Casino's in Vegas operate.
          Not everyone is going to be a whale, but a majority will drop coin in a machine, buy drinks or even just but a deck of cards...or not. But they have paid for a room.

          It kind of felt like there was a little AP holder discrimination...from non AP holders...
          No discrimination here, I've had an AP for what will be 10 years in December.

          This topic just sparked an interest and I enjoy a healthy debate
          "If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that"




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          • #85
            Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

            Originally posted by Pinrar View Post
            What i think is that cost of park operations does not increase proportionally to increased bodies in the parks. The staffing and the rate attractions run doesn't look much more increased when the park is say at 5/10 versus a 2/10 crowd. So i believe disney isn't paying that much more when attendance increases.
            I agree that there's got to be some kind of breakeven point where a certain number of people in the park doesn't cost more to operate. The question is, are APs toppling that number? I think only the number-crunchers really know.

            Comment


            • #86
              Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

              Originally posted by Giant Panda View Post
              That's a little strong. Depending on one's work/school schedule, A SoCal or even a SoCal Select AP can get you into the park plenty of times.
              I Was not referring to any pass other then the socal or the socal select the california resident ones, cause really they aren't that great. i love my premium and i wish for it to never go away.



              Comment


              • #87
                Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                Originally posted by christianAdam View Post

                I agree that Ap'ers do love their limited edition merch but that's once in awhile, not an every day occurance and yes OMDD brought in a lot of guests looking to score that exclusive merch but at the same time the vast majority were, again, AP holders who by now I'm sure were on DLR's dime for admission and so they lost profit as far as how many actual paying guests could've bought the same merch over the AP rush that came in and wiped them out. You bought a shirt at $35 but yet Disney paid $125 for you to get in that day....I still don't see how you made a profit. Yes the ticket booths were all filled because the park was at capacity and the again the vast majority of people in the park (yes I was there that night) were AP holders while the paying guests just sat in line waiting to get a ticket and most walked away empty handed...again...profit loss...



                I think a good middle-ground would be to offer a 5-day park-hopper and make it good for the entire year
                I don't think Disney pays $125 for an individual to get in. We'd need real #'s for that argument.

                A 5 day annual parkhopper would be great, preferably 6 for someone like me coming from out of state. However, with one solution another problem is created. What about those scalping the parkhopper tickets--selling 1 day and asking for the ticket back to sell again the next day?

                ---------- Post added 10-02-2012 at 03:21 PM ----------

                Originally posted by Trav1Disney View Post
                Do all the math you want if they didn't have the pass they would make about $300 a year off me. I stay at grand Californian a few times a year , eat all year , shop all year , Christmas shop there , and buy collectibles , just last week a $500 painting. I spend well over $10,000 a year there. If my premium pass wasn't making Disney money they would of eliminated it long ago. I spend about 70-100 days a year in the park. If ap's didn't exist DCA would of tanked long ago because we were the ones suporting it threw its rough time.

                ---------- Post added 10-02-2012 at 12:02 PM ----------

                Also I go to Florida once a year and drop another $7,000 there
                This is why I believe there will still be an AP of some sort, even if they increase the price. There are a few people for whom an even more expensive AP wouldn't be a problem.

                Comment


                • #88
                  Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                  Originally posted by smartlabelprint View Post
                  I don't think Disney pays $125 for an individual to get in. We'd need real #'s for that argument.

                  A 5 day annual parkhopper would be great, preferably 6 for someone like me coming from out of state. However, with one solution another problem is created. What about those scalping the parkhopper tickets--selling 1 day and asking for the ticket back to sell again the next day?
                  the one solution to that would be to distribute the 5 or 6 day passes like an annual pass. Same rules apply as far as needing your pic (this could also prevent theft as well as scalping)

                  and I know Disney doesn't indivually pay for your ticket but I use it in reference to everytime an AP walks through the turnstiles it takes away from a potential non-AP guest being able to attend. That's why I used the example of OMDD but the same can be said for the 4th of July or New Years

                  "If you were thinking, you wouldn't have thought that"




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                  • #89
                    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                    Originally posted by sediment View Post
                    It might have INCREASED 200K to 1M due to the payment plan, but the number has been above 500K for quite some time.
                    Looking through some archives, but can't seem to find any figures.

                    ---------- Post added 10-02-2012 at 02:32 PM ----------



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                    • #90
                      Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                      But what if APs are driving attendance up to a 8/10 day from a 4/10 day? WOuld that increase the park's costs?

                      i love how the ap's holders are so fast to get blaimed(again) for the driving of the attendance up :whistling MAYBE I am reading that wrong, but that is how i see it . there is other factors, maybe tourists are planning their vacations in off peak times and or beginning of the seasons rather then in the middle of seasons like summer or fall or winter.

                      Either way, we all can take a deep breath, the AP's are still gonna be around in 2013 :gladsad: i am just guessing and i am sure they will..
                      Last edited by Poisonedapples; 10-02-2012, 03:32 PM.



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                      • #91
                        Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                        Originally posted by DJS View Post
                        The point is to get traffic in, then entice them to spend. It's how Casino's in Vegas operate.
                        Perhaps the park admission should be really low (like a casino), and equal for everybody, and then each attraction would cost money.
                        Making some people pay a whole lot more, and others a whole lot less seems somewhat discriminatory.
                        Also, I don't think the park management's focus should be on getting its guests to buy overpriced food, beverage, and souvenirs. Its focus should be on the experience, so people will want to pay to return, and tell their friends about it.

                        Originally posted by DJS View Post
                        It kind of felt like there was a little AP holder discrimination...from non AP holders...
                        You're new here, so I'll remind you and others of a basic tenet we on this particular side of the debate have to say over and over again:
                        It's not the AP Holder. It's the AP Program.
                        AP Holders are simply buying a product that makes financial sense to them.
                        We just don't think it makes financial sense for the PARK.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                          It does make financial sense for the park, though, sediment.

                          :bang:

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                          • #93
                            Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                            Originally posted by Pinrar View Post
                            But you're still basing all your calculations on the idea that disney is paying for your visits after you have gone 5 times. This is not the case. The only thing disney is actually paying for is park operation cost which is NOT 125 a person. That number could be $20 a person for all we know. If that were the case an AP holder could go to the park 20 times and the premium AP alone would still be enough to generate a profit. Sure not as much profit as the full price guest but after the year is up, the profit probably ends up being quite similar on average. But like I said, no one knows how much the park costs to run.

                            But that is the magic number we need to know. How much it cost per guest to operate the park. Not the full price of a hopper because no one would go to DL as often as an AP holder does if everyone had to pay full price each visit. So the theoretical $125 a visit that disney is "losing" was never going to be theirs in any scenario. So what little profit disney may make per AP visit is still a profit that would not be there otherwise.

                            As for the increase in price, they did it because they could. Its simple economics, if you can increase prices and keep a similar demand, prices will go up.


                            Ok so I found a few numbers online and I don't know for sure how accurate but lets look at them.

                            It costs DL about $250,000 a day to run on average
                            Lets say Dl on average has 30,000 guests out of its around 80,000 capacity

                            That means that as long as every guest pays at least $9 per visit, every guest is generating a profit...

                            That means an Premium AP could go to DL about 60 times, without spending a cent in the park, and still make a tiny bit of profit for disney. At approximately 66 visits, the guest will start eating profits.
                            Those numbers sound more like it! However, I think saying 30/80 is too low since Carsland. Give them at least 50/80 on average IMHO.

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                            • #94
                              Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                              Originally posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
                              It does make financial sense for the park, though, sediment.

                              :bang:
                              The parks would make more money charging less (on average), and making each person pay that amount.
                              More interestingly, DCA might have gotten its makeover a lot more quickly without the padding of AP attendance.
                              If Disneyland's attendance would have dipped significantly during the past 17 years, an E-ticket-level attraction would have been built. At present, Indy is the last E-ticket-level attraction to have been built inside Disneyland. Lots of room in the ranch area and behind; autopia and subs, retool Toontown, etc. There was once a nice parking lot that could have been expanded into, "the right way."

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                              • #95
                                Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                                Originally posted by christianAdam View Post
                                the one solution to that would be to distribute the 5 or 6 day passes like an annual pass. Same rules apply as far as needing your pic (this could also prevent theft as well as scalping)

                                and I know Disney doesn't indivually pay for your ticket but I use it in reference to everytime an AP walks through the turnstiles it takes away from a potential non-AP guest being able to attend. That's why I used the example of OMDD but the same can be said for the 4th of July or New Years

                                I just think we shouldn't use such a high number like $125. An overhead number would be preferable. Over head is probably $x with attendance up to 1/2; $y with attendance at 3/4 and $z with full capacity. They know their profit margin!

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                                  5 OR 6 DAY PASS? i like that idea!! THAT might actually go over well with tourists and vacationing families..but they don't get the extra benefits like parking included and only some discounts.. :clap:



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                                  • #97
                                    Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                                    Four or five years ago I went on Yom Kippur, and no one was at the park. Every ride was a walk on. This last Yom Kippur the park was packed!

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                                    • #98
                                      Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                                      Originally posted by Poisonedapples View Post
                                      5 OR 6 DAY PASS? i like that idea!! THAT might actually go over well with tourists and vacationing families..but they don't get the extra benefits like parking included and only some discounts.. :clap:
                                      As a visitor I wouldn't use parking; however, it would be more expensive for a Californian or someone from AZ coming with the parking.

                                      I still think they should add this option, even if they keep the APs.

                                      ---------- Post added 10-02-2012 at 03:47 PM ----------

                                      Originally posted by whamo View Post
                                      Four or five years ago I went on Yom Kippur, and no one was at the park. Every ride was a walk on. This last Yom Kippur the park was packed!
                                      This may be Carsland related. All attendance estimates are skewed due to Carsland IMHO.

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Re: No more annual passes in 2013?

                                        Originally posted by smartlabelprint View Post
                                        Those numbers sound more like it! However, I think saying 30/80 is too low since Carsland. Give them at least 50/80 on average IMHO.
                                        Parks and resorts expenses are about $28.1 million per day (Fiscal year 2011 annual report).
                                        Nine parks (plus two water parks), 99.1 million visitors.
                                        271,500 guests per day.
                                        That's $103 per guest.
                                        Some expenses and revenue from hotels (and revenue a lot more than expenses) and cruise line, so it's not perfect.

                                        But expenses of $250K per day and $9 of a guest admission covering it is a bit unrealistic.

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                                        • Re: No more annual passes in 2013?


                                          This may be Carsland related. All attendance estimates are skewed due to Carsland IMHO.
                                          that's right.. blame it on carsland.... lol :lol:

                                          ---------- Post added 10-02-2012 at 04:52 PM ----------

                                          smartlabel, just don't give them the parking option,it makes the pass more expensive to them if the parking is included. so just don't give it as an option.. a



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