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  • #61
    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

    Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Ah. The "You Don't Need Your Seat Belt" defense. Perfect.
    I don't always agree with you, but when I do...

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    • #62
      Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

      Here's another reason you really shouldn't ignore someone who is screaming that their seat belt isn't working or engaging. Ever hear about this tragedy, at Six Flags Great Adventure? This girl died.

      But as the safety restraints came down on the other riders, Rick and Karen knew something was wrong--dead wrong--and a day of enjoyment and expectation was replaced by tragedy. Karen's safety bar snapped shut behind her, instead of in front, as required. Lightnin' Loops computer sensors indicated that all passengers were securely buckled in--just as Rick and Karen screamed to the operators to halt the ride.
      Popular Mechanics - Google Books
      Merida looks like this. Not a Barbie doll!

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      • #63
        Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

        Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
        The guest's EXPECTATIONS of the CM's roles and responsibilities based on their own guesses are not 'facts'.

        Your positioning of this as 'the facts were stated in the original post' is pretty much the poster child of the adage of 'There are two sides to every story...'
        :clap:

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        • #64
          Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

          Originally posted by MysticalSkye View Post
          A cast member would NEVER send a bobsled in without all passengers having their seatbelt on. NEVER.
          I gotta jump in here at this point (still reading @ post # 34)...
          In the 80s-2000s, there were many many times that sleds were sent to the lift and completed the circut with no belt. The belt was probably visually inspected, but I can tell you that there were times the belt wasn't connected. As of 2012, I am going to assume this cannot happen anymore, but I had to speak up about the concept of "NEVER".

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

            Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
            The guest's EXPECTATIONS of the CM's roles and responsibilities based on their own guesses are not 'facts'.

            Your positioning of this as 'the facts were stated in the original post' is pretty much the poster child of the adage of 'There are two sides to every story...'
            I wasn't referring to what their actual roles were. Those are irrelevant in this situation. What matters is how the rider perceived those roles which is a fact that was stated in the original post. It is also a fact that was stated in the original post that the workers did nothing to correct the rider's misconception and left this girl with a feeling that the ride was going to take off without her securely strapped in. That is a customer service failure that should never have been allowed to happen.
            "Greetings, Starfighter! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Xur and the Ko-Dan Armada."

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

              Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
              The guest's EXPECTATIONS of the CM's roles and responsibilities based on their own guesses are not 'facts'.

              Your positioning of this as 'the facts were stated in the original post' is pretty much the poster child of the adage of 'There are two sides to every story...'
              Excellent points! Kudos!

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

                CMs have a tough job but their first concern as many have said should always be the guest. If the CMs loading and unloading do not have the time to reassure gueststhen another CM should be posted at the ride to reassure guests so that no one has a panic attack or worse yet a health situation because of their panic. Never dismiss someone who is clearly trying to follow the rules. Malina I am sorry thAt this happened to you and you should not be reprimanded here for trying to make sure you were seat belted in properly.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

                  Originally posted by calsig31 View Post
                  I wasn't referring to what their actual roles were. Those are irrelevant in this situation. What matters is how the rider perceived those roles which is a fact that was stated in the original post. It is also a fact that was stated in the original post that the workers did nothing to correct the rider's misconception and left this girl with a feeling that the ride was going to take off without her securely strapped in
                  No, again, you have HER version of the story.. and how she describes her actions and that of the CMs. These are not facts. What she perceived is not necessarily what happened. She never talked to the CMs afterwards to know what they knew or did not, etc.

                  The only 'fact' we have is that she was scared and presumably upset over it all. But like most situations, if you only take one side of it, and don't actually talk to the other side afterwards to know what THEY knew... you rarely have a valid picture of the situation.

                  The calls to complain to city hall, firing, etc are all based on PRESUMED understanding of what they are supposed to be doing, what they were doing, and what they knew, and what risks or not they allowed to happen.

                  As someone who is supposed to be trained in law.. I would expect better. But sounds a lot like a lawyer who is more interested in winning cases instead of actual facts. Just throw it out there and let them fight it 'in court'
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                  • #69
                    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

                    Imagine if you're in the process of getting into a bobsled and then the person in the bobsled in front of you starts panicking about her seat belt. Do you want the people responsible for your safety to suddenly go help the person that isn't in any real danger? There is a person that is responsible for such a situation and by the OP's own account, the issue was resolved when they got to that last station before dispatch. So maybe the CMs not rushing to calm a worried guest might seem rude to some, but to me it shows they're watching out for everyone else.

                    And please, please stop comparing this to incidents where people have died. It is extremely disrespectful. In all the incidents brought up someone seriously screwed up. In this case, all issues (besides some hurt feeling over the perception of being ignored) were resolved before the ride started.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

                      Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
                      No, again, you have HER version of the story.. and how she describes her actions and that of the CMs. These are not facts. What she perceived is not necessarily what happened. She never talked to the CMs afterwards to know what they knew or did not, etc.

                      The only 'fact' we have is that she was scared and presumably upset over it all. But like most situations, if you only take one side of it, and don't actually talk to the other side afterwards to know what THEY knew... you rarely have a valid picture of the situation.

                      The calls to complain to city hall, firing, etc are all based on PRESUMED understanding of what they are supposed to be doing, what they were doing, and what they knew, and what risks or not they allowed to happen.

                      As someone who is supposed to be trained in law.. I would expect better. But sounds a lot like a lawyer who is more interested in winning cases instead of actual facts. Just throw it out there and let them fight it 'in court'
                      I had a similar reply ready, but Flynn beat me to it...so simply...I second that^

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

                        Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
                        No, again, you have HER version of the story.. and how she describes her actions and that of the CMs. These are not facts. What she perceived is not necessarily what happened. She never talked to the CMs afterwards to know what they knew or did not, etc.

                        The only 'fact' we have is that she was scared and presumably upset over it all. But like most situations, if you only take one side of it, and don't actually talk to the other side afterwards to know what THEY knew... you rarely have a valid picture of the situation.

                        The calls to complain to city hall, firing, etc are all based on PRESUMED understanding of what they are supposed to be doing, what they were doing, and what they knew, and what risks or not they allowed to happen.

                        As someone who is supposed to be trained in law.. I would expect better. But sounds a lot like a lawyer who is more interested in winning cases instead of actual facts. Just throw it out there and let them fight it 'in court'
                        I'm not sure what's open to debate with "my version" of the story:

                        a. The seat belt wasn't working right. I'd ridden on the Matterhorn before so I did know how to operate them.
                        b. The CMs did not respond verbally or physically when they were informed several times of a problem.

                        As I mentioned, I rode with a friend, so I do have a witness. She was also yelling to the CMs for help because she heard me, but since she was already belted in, she was probably less panicked than I was. Her perception of the incident was just as mine was; ie, the CMs ignored me.

                        You don't have to leave your post to verbally reassure someone that the situation will be handled. If your job is to look over the belts with a flashlight, at that moment you ARE interacting with them and you have room to say something. Also, if the sleds are being loaded so very quickly that there is no room at all to troubleshoot, perhaps that is an issue in itself.

                        I am not comparing the incident to the LL one, except to point out that when cast members and ride operators ignore guests that are having difficulties, there can be serious consequences for the riders. Obviously that didn't happen this time. Thank God for that. What about the next time, when the CMs don't give the guest the benefit of the doubt and someone gets hurt?
                        Merida looks like this. Not a Barbie doll!

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                        • #72
                          Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

                          This is more an issue of hurt feelings than safety.

                          I would rather have CMs focus on their position. Accidents can occur suddenly, even in the split second it takes for someone to turn away and tell you that you'll be OK. You can argue that maybe they could add another CM to address guest concerns and you'd be entitled to that opinion.

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                          • #73
                            Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

                            The issue here is not the safety of the attraction. Nor is it an issue of "hurt feelngs."
                            The issue here is the guest's anxiety and how the park addressed it or failed to address it.
                            "Your job is to create happiness."

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                            • #74
                              Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

                              Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
                              No, again, you have HER version of the story.. and how she describes her actions and that of the CMs. These are not facts. What she perceived is not necessarily what happened. She never talked to the CMs afterwards to know what they knew or did not, etc.
                              She has a witness that can corroborate her facts. I have yet to see any posts that say that there is no way that the worker would not have told her that the seat belt situation will be resolved at the next station. That is a pretty strong case that her concerns were pretty much ignored.

                              Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
                              The only 'fact' we have is that she was scared and presumably upset over it all.
                              We also have the fact that there was a witness to the lack of performance of the Disney worker. We also don't have any facts that say the workers did actually perform their job and reassure that rider that the seat belt situation would be taken care of.

                              Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
                              As someone who is supposed to be trained in law.. I would expect better. But sounds a lot like a lawyer who is more interested in winning cases instead of actual facts. Just throw it out there and let them fight it 'in court'
                              Since I am trained in the field of law, I know that a plaintiff's testimony with the supporting testimony of a second witness is much more reliable than no evidence presented on the side of the defendant.

                              Originally posted by clippers6 View Post
                              Imagine if you're in the process of getting into a bobsled and then the person in the bobsled in front of you starts panicking about her seat belt. Do you want the people responsible for your safety to suddenly go help the person that isn't in any real danger?
                              No, but I would want them to give her a verbal assurance. There is no need to go rushing over there.

                              Originally posted by clippers6 View Post
                              And please, please stop comparing this to incidents where people have died. It is extremely disrespectful.
                              Not really. If this rider had panicked enough to jump out of the sled as it was moving, it could have been just as fatal as the other incidents where people died.
                              "Greetings, Starfighter! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Xur and the Ko-Dan Armada."

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

                                Originally posted by Malina View Post
                                I've been on the ride before and after rehab and I've never had a problem with the belt before, though. I'm good about sitting down, grabbing the belt and getting set. This one was honestly jammed.

                                My concern is really that a) the belt was jammed; b) the CMs did not respond when my friend and I both told them that the belt seemed to be jammed; c) we went PAST the first seat belt check with the flashlights and I did not have my belt on; the belt was still jammed, and the CMs had still not responded or even said "look, the belt will un-jam in a minute" or offered assistance.
                                Sorry to hear about your experience. Jammed seat belts are bad, have had it happen to me on certain rides, but the worst part is the attitude of CMs, making an inconvenience a nightmare scneario. Very rude. Report them to City Hall.

                                ---------- Post added 10-09-2012 at 12:43 AM ----------

                                Originally posted by clippers6 View Post
                                I don't really see what any CM did wrong here.
                                I've worked in jobs where you have a lot of contact with people . . . you always *respond* when somebody asks you a question, and double that for when you need help. Not talking to customers that are screaming for help is repugnant, and something that should get somebody written up, it not fired.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

                                  But anxiety is something that is very common. Just about everyday you'll see kids crying before a ride because they are scared. I've seen bawling children on rides ranging from Ghost Galaxy to Snow White. It's not something I'm super proud of, but I used to cry when Monstro would "eat" us on Storybook Land. There are also plenty of teens and adults that behave very anxiously before thrill rides. I don't think it would be realistic to ask Disney to make sure everyone is completely reassured before beginning a ride. In the Disney handbook SAFETY comes before COURTESY, SHOW, and EFFICIENCY.

                                  ---------- Post added 10-08-2012 at 06:02 PM ----------

                                  Originally posted by calsig31 View Post
                                  Not really. If this rider had panicked enough to jump out of the sled as it was moving, it could have been just as fatal as the other incidents where people died.
                                  But the OP has been on the Matterhorn before. She wasn't afraid of the ride. Why would she jump out? If she had been begging to be let off the ride and they sent her through anyways then there would be a big, big problem. But that wasn't the case, her concern was with the seat belt and that concern was addressed before the ride started.

                                  Originally posted by chesirecat View Post
                                  I've worked in jobs where you have a lot of contact with people . . . you always *respond* when somebody asks you a question, and double that for when you need help. Not talking to customers that are screaming for help is repugnant, and something that should get somebody written up, it not fired.
                                  I don't know what jobs you've had, but operating a ride is very different from most customer service positions. If I'm selling popcorn at the movie theater and someone is screaming for help, the worst thing that can happen from me leaving my position is maybe the line gets kind of long. If the loader at Matterhorn leaves their position, you have the very real possibility of an accident occurring during loading/unloading.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

                                    The only thing wrong here is that MAYBE the CM should have told the guest that he/she would be right with her. The ride should not have been stopped.

                                    I can't wrap my head around what the fuss is about. The car was not dispatched dangerously, it never passed the belt check without the seatbelt fastened. The same thing happens on RSR for goodness sake, you get in, move up to the belt check, and are then dispatched.

                                    In this case the guest overreacted. The system worked. Safety overreactions like this are the reasons we are getting raised bars on Alice and padding on everything.

                                    Maybe to prevent things like this from happening in the future CMs should bubble wrap guests to the vehicles before it moves an inch.

                                    Originally posted by calsig31 View Post
                                    I wasn't referring to what their actual roles were. Those are irrelevant in this situation. What matters is how the rider perceived those roles which is a fact that was stated in the original post. It is also a fact that was stated in the original post that the workers did nothing to correct the rider's misconception and left this girl with a feeling that the ride was going to take off without her securely strapped in. That is a customer service failure that should never have been allowed to happen.
                                    And I'm sorry but this is just wrong. In no instance does the rider get (or should they get) to set the safety standard. Lets say the belt was fastened and the rider was still freaking out, in that case the whole ride doesn't need to be stopped right that instance... the issues can be addressed two seconds later at the belt check. Stopping the whole ride in motion can often be MORE dangerous overall.
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                                    • #78
                                      Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

                                      Originally posted by calsig31 View Post
                                      We also don't have any facts that say the workers did actually perform their job and reassure that rider that the seat belt situation would be taken care of.
                                      I'm not a lawyer, but isn't this related to "innocent until proven guilty"? Absence of "facts" that the CM did their job doesn't mean they were guilty of not doing it. Right?

                                      I also want to point out that the C in CM does not stand for "counselor".
                                      Last edited by Mojave; 10-08-2012, 05:27 PM.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

                                        Originally posted by clippers6 View Post

                                        I don't know what jobs you've had, but operating a ride is very different from most customer service positions. If I'm selling popcorn at the movie theater and someone is screaming for help, the worst thing that can happen from me leaving my position is maybe the line gets kind of long. If the loader at Matterhorn leaves their position, you have the very real possibility of an accident occurring during loading/unloading.
                                        Uh, an accident almost did occur, might have occured, had the OP not been able to unlock her seatbelt. Certainly, the CM could have alerted somebody down the line to the problem. Why check safety belts with a flashlight if the CM won't acknowledge/care about guests who are having problems?

                                        ---------- Post added 10-09-2012 at 01:55 AM ----------

                                        Originally posted by Malina View Post

                                        We got to the second stop where they check the belts with flashlights and mine was still jammed up. This whole time, my friend and I were frantically yelling to the CMs that I couldn't get my belt to work. It was somehow jammed on the side and I couldn't get it moving. There were about four CMs there.

                                        ...and the vehicle moved again, right to the mouth of the mountain before the first hill. Of course I started panicking at this point. I finally got my belt on, and the CM just nodded.

                                        What the heck. My friend, after the ride, said that she was terrified they were going to send me up the hill without a belt on, because none of the CMs seemed at all concerned I was having trouble and none of them said anything. All of them ignored us when we were yelling there was a problem with the belt.
                                        So for those who don't think the four CMs (some armed with flashlights) did anything wrong, why have CMs even checking seat belts at this point if they don't do anything about it?

                                        If the last CM (the dude that just nods) is all that is needed, why employ four other CMs to check safety belts?

                                        I answer my own question:

                                        The second checkpoint with the four CMs armed with flashlights are part of a redundant safety system. Should the guy at the end who dispatches the bobsled mess up, hopefully these upstanding young men and women armed with flashlights will have caught the problem as vice versa.

                                        It's called redundancy. In this case, one layer of redundancy failed. Should the OP not have fastened her seat belt, the last CM (let's say he a psycho who is disgruntled) could have dispatched the bobsled without a care in the world and the OP would ride Matterhorn without a safety belt.

                                        Note that emotional distress occurred here when the guest freaks out because he/she sees a layer of redundancy fail.

                                        The CMs with flashlights could have signaled to stop the bobsleds, wouldn't mean the ride is 101, simply making sure the dispatcher doesn't push the all clear button while they work on the safety belt. So, everybody has to wait 25 seconds longer, big friggin' deal to keep somebody alive.

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                                        • #80
                                          Re: Scary Matterhorn experience

                                          Originally posted by chesirecat View Post
                                          Uh, an accident almost did occur, might have occured, had the OP not been able to unlock her seatbelt. Certainly, the CM could have alerted somebody down the line to the problem. Why check safety belts with a flashlight if the CM won't acknowledge/care about guests who are having problems?
                                          If not getting your seatbelt clicked until the final safety check is considered an "almost accident", I bet they have "almost accidents" a thousand times a day.

                                          And since everybody is trying to claim "facts" in this case, what facts do we have that say the final CM wouldn't have stopped the ride if they hadn't seen that the OP had the seatbelt fastened and acknowledged that?

                                          Also, why is it necessary to have a final seatbelt check if the first two CM stops are supposed to have checked them already? This is a rhetorical question.

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