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    ah schucks
    šoš Tom šoš

  • ah schucks
    replied
    Wow I opened up a can of worms just posting a simple picture with some far basic notions on where land should be scooped up for a park I doubt will see the light of day for over 10 years.

    I agree with Jspider about creating a resort experiance over a one stop shop on a breeze through tour of Southern California. Disneyland should be a destination seperate from LA or SD- not a middle ground.

    Having lived there for 4 years, my thoughts are simple. That area was poorly developed to begin with but new redevelopment is bringing better quality business to the area. That means better jobs, schools, transportation,etc. If Disney is the driving force behind this by creating a more inclusive city than the Florida park then I agree.

    As part of the resort atmosphere that lacks in the Florida park, I believe it is essential to show vistors the wide array of entertainment option available to them in Anaheim. It houses a major league baseball team, a hockey stadium and a concert hall within 2 or 3 miles of the park. I know Eisner is selling off the Angels but I have always believed an expansive monorail system throughout Anaheim with the expansion of the parks would prove to be a attractive vacation destination beyond what it is now.

    Replacing old businesses, broken hotels and tourist dives with golf course, spas, theme parks, restraunts and shopping is the key to creating an inclusive tourist destination and its only a matter of time before Anaheim becomes that. In 25 years when we celebrate the 75 anniversary I suspect the landscape of that aerial photo will look far different and more appealing.

    If you build it...they will come...

    Leave a comment:

  • dshimel
    Banned User

  • dshimel
    replied
    Originally posted by Jspider
    however DL and WDW are almost seperate companies (with the way Disney is structured now they pretty much are and imagineering is sperate from the parks as well), they could easily phase in and out marketing for middle america if they really wanted to
    Sure.... IF they want to steal guests from WDW, sending them to DL instead.... Which is the last thing they want to do.[/QUOTE]

    Agree... But Colorado, Nebraska, Kansas, Utah.... ALL get hit HARD with WDW advertising. And that is how WDW is able to pull 6 million out-of-state visitors a year, staying 6-7 days each, making up a huge chunk of WDW 48 million guest-days.

    Phase in DLR advertising in the mid-west, and let's say 1 million people go to DLR istead of WDW.... Then WDW loses 6 million visitor-days and DLR gains 2 million visitor days. WDW losses 4 million hotel-nights and the cheap hotels across the street from DL get 2 million guest nights.


    Originally posted by Jspider
    WDW could easily compensate by drawing from it's own costal areas, islands mexico even as well as what you said before, Europe
    Other than Mexico, they're already hitting those areas very hard.... This is driving the source of their 6 million visitors staying a week each. They can't hit them harder.



    Originally posted by Jspider
    DLR should spread out it's own advertising so that they actualy reach my area (the only advertisement that ever reached me was the very vague "see the park next to disneyland" ad back when DCA first opend)
    That is the last thing DisCo wants to do. They DO NOT want you going to DLR and giving them $300 when you would have gone to WDW and gave them $1000.


    For DLR to grow, it MUST do so without stealing ANY of WDW guests... Otherwise, it is a waste of money and DisCo isn't going to do it.

    Leave a comment:

  • Jspider
    Senior Member

  • Jspider
    replied
    Originally posted by sleepyjeff
    If you don't cound the support/backstage areas(like TDA) and such the Third Gate area is almost as big as Disneyland itself. Using a basement(utilidors) system for support/backstage the third gate could be a full Disney Theme Park without the addition of extra land
    see the problem is that the third gate land as a WHOLE is close to 90 acres (including the cast member lot)

    if you take away the cast member parking then your looking at something that's closer to 60 acres that's only 5 acres more then DCA when it first opend

    and going beyond that Utilidors are awfuly darn expensive and such

    I don't think it would need another gaint set of management buildings but it would need backstage areas for parades and reparing ride vehicles and other such functions

    Disney needs all the extra land it can get I can't see them building a full day park on 60 acres, especialy not 60 acres that has housing development running up it's armpits (pardon my analogy)

    Leave a comment:

  • sleepyjeff
    Spree Candy

  • sleepyjeff
    replied
    If you don't cound the support/backstage areas(like TDA) and such the Third Gate area is almost as big as Disneyland itself. Using a basement(utilidors) system for support/backstage the third gate could be a full Disney Theme Park without the addition of extra land

    Leave a comment:

  • Jspider
    Senior Member

  • Jspider
    replied
    Originally posted by dshimel
    What different manner? 20,000 hotel rooms, 4 parks, 3 water parks, DQuest, Huge DTD..... That takes NATIONAL advertising. They can't just slice off everything West of Texas for DIsneyland or they'll fail to fill WDW!

    I say again.... Growth of DLR is dependant on their ability to draw out-of-towners without taking anyone from WDW. They HAVE to look south of San Diego. Expect more and more spanish speaking CMs and signage!
    however DL and WDW are almost seperate companies (with the way Disney is structured now they pretty much are and imagineering is sperate from the parks as well), they could easily phase in and out marketing for middle america if they really wanted to

    WDW I doubt would suffer much from the west coast, not that many people travel out that far often anyways, WDW could easily compensate by drawing from it's own costal areas, islands mexico even as well as what you said before, Europe

    WDW doesn't have to stop advertising across the states (as I'm sure you get WDW ads in Cali even) but DLR should spread out it's own advertising so that they actualy reach my area (the only advertisement that ever reached me was the very vague "see the park next to disneyland" ad back when DCA first opend)

    Leave a comment:

  • dshimel
    Banned User

  • dshimel
    replied
    Originally posted by Jspider
    if Disneylands market keeps growing I think Disneyland will grow and that the WDW situation would be treated in a different manner
    What different manner? 20,000 hotel rooms, 4 parks, 3 water parks, DQuest, Huge DTD..... That takes NATIONAL advertising. They can't just slice off everything West of Texas for DIsneyland or they'll fail to fill WDW!

    I say again.... Growth of DLR is dependant on their ability to draw out-of-towners without taking anyone from WDW. They HAVE to look south of San Diego. Expect more and more spanish speaking CMs and signage!

    Leave a comment:

  • Jspider
    Senior Member

  • Jspider
    replied
    I dissagree, DLR is pulling in out of state visitors

    it's simply that Disneyland is just one stop of many when visiting California right now and only recently have they made an effort to change that

    however that effort hasn't been well advertised so awareness is slowly building and so the attendence and treatment of it as a multistay resort has only slowly been on the rise as people visit only to be suprised at seeing yet another park right next door

    if Disneylands market keeps growing I think Disneyland will grow and that the WDW situation would be treated in a different manner

    Leave a comment:

  • dshimel
    Banned User

  • dshimel
    replied
    Originally posted by Jspider
    but that's the way it is when they add new PARKS to WDW the attendence for the others drops but the overall attendance rises

    so expanding DLR could give them more money overall in theory (especialy if they market it to the whole Western side of the US because THAT way people can spend money saved on travel ad the Disney resort since it's Disney's plan to get the largest piece of the tourists money possible)
    I think a lot of WDW's growth over the past 20 years has been from people extending their stays longer and longer. 1 or 2 days when it was just MK. 2 or 3 days with Epcot. 4 days with water park and 3rd gate. 6-7 days with 2 more water parks, DTD and DAK. I think you can get that "extending stay" when you have 5-6 million out-of-state guests coming and paying full price for tickets and staying in your hotels. 6 million staying 2 days is 12 million visits. 6 million staying 3 days is 18 million... 6 million out-of-state visitors staying 7 days each is 42 million visitors. Each time you add a day to the average stay you add 6 million visits.

    DLR is simply not pulling those kinds of out-of-state visitors.

    18 million visits, with 600K APs averaging 10 visits each is 6 million of the 18. Of the 12 million remaining visits, half are locals. That leaves some 6 million visits by non-locals. If the average stay is 2 days, you're looking at 3 million non-locals. If you up their average stay from 3 days to 4, you up your attendance by 3 million...

    Checking if this number is realistic.... DL has some 2K hotel rooms, 365 days a year, 87% booked.... That is some 600K hotel room nights. If they average 3 people per room per night, that is 1.8 million people-nights. If only one fourth of non-locals stay on site, you're looking at 3.5 million non-locals staying 2 nights each....

    Far short of the 6 million or so WDW pulls.....

    Yes, the 6 million visits by locals that don't have APs will also increase with the addition of extra gates..... but enough?

    Again, I think the odds of DLR continueing to grow is going to be determined by their ability to increase visits by non-locals, without stealing from WDW.... I think that means attracting more people from South of San Diego.

    Leave a comment:

  • Jspider
    Senior Member

  • Jspider
    replied
    Originally posted by gibbage
    One thing that suprises me is just HOW MUCH ROOM some of the older attractions take up! For instance, River of America takes up almost 1/4 of DL!!! For what? Then there is Jungle Cruise taking up a good chunk. Compair that to the latest E-Ticket at DCA the TOT taking up about 1/4th of the JC's room. You also have Autopia taking up a great portion of the north/east section of the park.

    I say cut the river in half and put in a nice big E-ticket there. It would save some wear and tear on the boats
    the large rivers and especialy the jungle cruise are nice because they create real things that allow you to see real space in a way, they help build to the illusion that the park is larger then it actualy is

    and the ride time would seem horridly short if you cut back the river that much and you might have to cut back operation on the Mark Twain and Columbia to only one boat at a time

    now if they could build an actual ATTRACTION on the Tom Sawyer Island and provide more ways of getting to it that would be prime

    I do agree the older things take up a TON of space, one of the biggest mishmeshes being Autopia

    Leave a comment:


  • gibbage
    replied
    One thing that suprises me is just HOW MUCH ROOM some of the older attractions take up! For instance, River of America takes up almost 1/4 of DL!!! For what? Then there is Jungle Cruise taking up a good chunk. Compair that to the latest E-Ticket at DCA the TOT taking up about 1/4th of the JC's room. You also have Autopia taking up a great portion of the north/east section of the park.

    I say cut the river in half and put in a nice big E-ticket there. It would save some wear and tear on the boats

    Leave a comment:

  • Jspider
    Senior Member

  • Jspider
    replied
    Originally posted by dshimel
    Anything is for sale, if the price is right.

    The question is:
    Would there be sufficient demand for 2 full-week Disney resorts in the United States? WDW pulls some 48 million visitor-days a year and runs 20,000 hotel rooms 77% full. DL pulls 18 million visitor-days a year and fills 2,000 hotel rooms 87% full. Total 66 million and 22,000 hotel rooms.

    If DLR expands to a 6-day, 4-park, 15,000 hotel room resort and ups their total to 40 million visitor days a year would the new 2 resort total be 88 million visitor-days and 35,000 hotel rooms 75+% full, or would DLR just steal guests from WDW?


    Surprisingly, I think a LOT of that has to do with DLR's ability to market itself to Mexico, Central and South America. WDW acheives a lot of its occupancy from Europe. DLR would need to pull 10 million of visitor-days or more a year from south of San Diego.

    but that's the way it is when they add new PARKS to WDW the attendence for the others drops but the overall attendance rises

    so expanding DLR could give them more money overall in theory (especialy if they market it to the whole Western side of the US because THAT way people can spend money saved on travel ad the Disney resort since it's Disney's plan to get the largest piece of the tourists money possible)

    Leave a comment:

  • fearsnda
    Leave 'em wanting more!

  • fearsnda
    replied
    Originally posted by ah schucks
    Hey folks, I spent some time editing a smaller map this morning and Mr. Spider was nice as to point myself to a site where I was able to piece several smaller maps of Anaheim together to form this:


    Now when you want to discuss the feasibility of a ride you can refer to this map and compare the size. You can see the size difference between DCA and DL and the preposed 3rd Gate.

    I hightlighted yellow areas as places Disney needs to persue to expand properly. Green areas are sold and solid and not in Disney control nor necessary for expansion. Orange is current parking. Blue are expansion areas already in Disney control.

    Thanks again to Jspider!-Tom
    That top area labeled "Disney Building" is not unavailable. TDA, The Eat Ticket and the TDA Parking Garage only really occupy the top right corner of that. The other areas aren't really all that permanent and there are many areas back there that could be removed, relocated or changed to accommodate new attractions. Circle D is an excellent example - there is also quite a bit of space back there dedicated to Magic Music Days - which could always be moved just about anywhere. Obviously the round house would have to stay...

    Just an FYI

    Leave a comment:


  • mrfantasmic
    replied
    That is a very impressive ariel photo... how big is the maximum resolution?

    Leave a comment:


  • JoeCool
    replied
    You could be right....Without a 3rd gate, that area where the anaheim garden walk is will not be visited by tourists.

    Leave a comment:

  • Jspider
    Senior Member

  • Jspider
    replied
    Originally posted by XCLIPSE129
    Do you think those hotels/restaurants across DL would ever sell their property to Disney? I think not.. those are goldmines to any private owners. So I highly doubt disney can expanded anymore except for those fields across from Anahiem Conv Ctr. And im thinking Anaheim wont allow Disney to build anything in that intersection. Cant imagine the traffice that will cause during any type of construction there.. It was hell before when they were buidling DTD and DCA...
    but lets look at the facts

    Disney already HAS bought out hotels and taken them out, check out the 1995 aerial pic on the third gate thread, parts of the Timon lot were once hotels (and pretty decent sized parts too the Candycane is a small survivor of that)

    and lets also look at the fact that the City of Anahiem PAYED for most of the road reconstruction NOT Disney, they paid for the parking garage and everything, the city of anihiem WANTED DLR very badly

    I think the reason Disney didn't get that land is because the city of anihiem WANTS it's own citywalk type thing and Disney has DTD so doesn't want to build another one so they're not

    Leave a comment:

  • dshimel
    Banned User

  • dshimel
    replied
    Originally posted by XCLIPSE129
    Do you think those hotels/restaurants across DL would ever sell their property to Disney? I think not..
    Anything is for sale, if the price is right.

    The question is:
    Would there be sufficient demand for 2 full-week Disney resorts in the United States? WDW pulls some 48 million visitor-days a year and runs 20,000 hotel rooms 77% full. DL pulls 18 million visitor-days a year and fills 2,000 hotel rooms 87% full. Total 66 million and 22,000 hotel rooms.

    If DLR expands to a 6-day, 4-park, 15,000 hotel room resort and ups their total to 40 million visitor days a year would the new 2 resort total be 88 million visitor-days and 35,000 hotel rooms 75+% full, or would DLR just steal guests from WDW?


    Surprisingly, I think a LOT of that has to do with DLR's ability to market itself to Mexico, Central and South America. WDW acheives a lot of its occupancy from Europe. DLR would need to pull 10 million of visitor-days or more a year from south of San Diego.

    Leave a comment:

  • Giant Panda
    My Children's Father

  • Giant Panda
    replied
    Originally posted by XCLIPSE129
    Do you think those hotels/restaurants across DL would ever sell their property to Disney? I think not.. those are goldmines to any private owners. So I highly doubt disney can expanded anymore except for those fields across from Anahiem Conv Ctr. And im thinking Anaheim wont allow Disney to build anything in that intersection. Cant imagine the traffice that will cause during any type of construction there.. It was hell before when they were buidling DTD and DCA...
    If Disney feels they can generate enough revenue to cover the expense of aquiring the property and redeveloping it to suit their purposes, they'd be foolish not too. I don't think it is out of the realm of possibilities.

    I think the city will let Disney do whatever it can to make money, since the city makes money whenever Disney does. Temporary traffic impacts are negligible.

    The day will come when it will actually be easier to redevelop the surrounding areas of Anaheim than the swamplands of Florida, unless you expect Earth to look like Corusant.

    Leave a comment:

  • XCLIPSE129
    6 kids before I'm 30!!!!

  • XCLIPSE129
    replied
    Originally posted by JoeCool
    That Anaheim walk is in the way I hope Disney buys the owners out
    Totally agree...I think that spot has been empty for 5yrs or more already.. theyput up that wall like 3 yrs ago and stated they will put some "citywalk" copy cat in anaheim. But all i see is dirt and rocks eveyrwhere..no progress it hasnt even been leveled or whatever you call it before they do construction. They should make that the cast parking .. and build over the curr cast parking... btu yah thats gonna happen.

    Leave a comment:


  • JoeCool
    replied
    That Anaheim walk is in the way I hope Disney buys the owners out

    Leave a comment:

  • XCLIPSE129
    6 kids before I'm 30!!!!

  • XCLIPSE129
    replied
    Do you think those hotels/restaurants across DL would ever sell their property to Disney? I think not.. those are goldmines to any private owners. So I highly doubt disney can expanded anymore except for those fields across from Anahiem Conv Ctr. And im thinking Anaheim wont allow Disney to build anything in that intersection. Cant imagine the traffice that will cause during any type of construction there.. It was hell before when they were buidling DTD and DCA...

    Leave a comment:

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