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  • #21
    Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

    I wonder how much actual data they have on how much an APer spends at the park vs. a day or multi-day ticket holder. Maybe that's why the CM's are so good about asking me whether I'm a annual passholder so I can get my discount every time. Maybe Disney encourages it for the sake of being able to track my purchases and they are willing to give up the 10% or 15% or whatever it is in order to be able to do so.
    Disneyland Cast Member
    Outdoor Vending
    1996 - 1999

    My interview with MiceAge about working at Disneyland:

    http://micechat.com/blogs/mouth-of-t...ding-crew.html

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    • #22
      Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

      Management can complain all they want, but the laws of finance doesn't change. Neither will converting locals to day trippers. Thus, they haven't gotten rid of the AP program for the simple reason that making more money is better than making less money. Anyways, I wonder of management done the job of analyzing those that buy the day passes. Not every local buys an AP.
      Last edited by StevenW; 11-13-2013, 02:37 PM.

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      • #23
        Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

        Originally posted by moregumboplease View Post
        This kind of rubbed me the wrong way, maybe I'm on my MANstral cycle, lol.
        Once Thanksgiving Day arrives however, and all the Passholder blockouts kick in, the daily attendance declines by 30,000 or more and the parks become noticeably less busy, while per capita guest spending skyrockets compared to the stingier Annual Passholders.

        Not sure I would have worded it that way. As an APH and frequent park visitor, of course I can't binge spend. But our money is still spent in the parks, while it might not be lets just say $300 in a day, maybe it is $300 spread out through the course of the year. Does that make my wife and I "stingy"?
        I'm definitely with you on that. My honey and I spend an average $100 per visit. We usually go 10 times a year. That adds up. I'd love to see the numbers on how that compares to a tourist family of two visiting the park once a year.

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        • #24
          Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

          Originally posted by UncleWally'sNiece View Post
          I'm definitely with you on that. My honey and I spend an average $100 per visit. We usually go 10 times a year. That adds up. I'd love to see the numbers on how that compares to a tourist family of two visiting the park once a year.
          Our five night stay at the Grand Californian (a Disney property) alone (never mind the tickets and all the food and souvenirs) laps your anecdotal evidence.

          fwiw
          Waiting for Godot Micechat.com

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          • #25
            Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

            Look at it this way. Year ago Disney stated it made more off guests in park spending than the ticket, 125%. So we could assumer a day guest spends roughly $225, $100 on the ticket, $125 on food and souvenirs.

            The average day guest does not stay on Disney property overnight, they drive in. The average overnight guest stays off property. So we can say the average hotel rate Disney could get, from a weekend night in regular season is 440+370+280 divided by 3. (GCH+DLH+PPH)/3 is $330. Take the $330 divide it in half because only half of guests stay overnight, and divide it in half again and because only half stay on property. Your down to $82.50, but then divide it by the number of guests conservatively 3 guests per room. Now you get another $28.

            So a typical day guest spends $225+$28 for a total of $253 per person, assuming they are adults.

            This is a pretty high estimate as multiday tickets do make up a good part of visits and the spending spreads out a bit. I'd also bet as ticket prices went up, the ticket/food-souvenir proportion tipped toward even.

            In the end I as a Passholder spend the same $28 on a hotel as I sometimes spend the night on property. I probably don't spend $125 but guess it to be more around $60 on food and souvenires. So $88 a day times about 40 days. And also that $600+ pass. Sorry for clogging up the park and being so stingy with those $4000.
            Be Cool Stay in School!
            Next year I'm trying for a summer internship at Stark Industries.

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            • #26
              Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

              Originally posted by StevenW View Post
              Math is your friend. $300 / 12 = $25. Not so stingy, plus parking. So $40 per trip?
              I counted two of them. So, per guest, it's $12.50.
              Smart AP'ers buy one annual parking pass for WAY less than parking for 12 days (main cause of the parking nightmares, btw, as it lowers the number of guests per vehicle and thus increases the number off vehicles ceteris paribus).

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              • #27
                Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

                Originally posted by swampymarsh View Post
                Look at it this way. Year ago Disney stated it made more off guests in park spending than the ticket, 125%. So we could assumer a day guest spends roughly $225, $100 on the ticket, $125 on food and souvenirs.

                The average day guest does not stay on Disney property overnight, they drive in. The average overnight guest stays off property. So we can say the average hotel rate Disney could get, from a weekend night in regular season is 440+370+280 divided by 3. (GCH+DLH+PPH)/3 is $330. Take the $330 divide it in half because only half of guests stay overnight, and divide it in half again and because only half stay on property. Your down to $82.50, but then divide it by the number of guests conservatively 3 guests per room. Now you get another $28.

                So a typical day guest spends $225+$28 for a total of $253 per person, assuming they are adults.

                This is a pretty high estimate as multiday tickets do make up a good part of visits and the spending spreads out a bit. I'd also bet as ticket prices went up, the ticket/food-souvenir proportion tipped toward even.

                In the end I as a Passholder spend the same $28 on a hotel as I sometimes spend the night on property. I probably don't spend $125 but guess it to be more around $60 on food and souvenires. So $88 a day times about 40 days. And also that $600+ pass. Sorry for clogging up the park and being so stingy with those $4000.
                You are forgetting the cost of goods sold. Revenue <> profit when buying actual goods. Cost is probably 50% of price. Buying a ticket, which are nearly limitless and has very little cost of creating it and selling it, is probably 99% profit. (Lots of fixed costs in operating Disneyland. They'd have to be allocated by an knowledgeable expert.)

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                • #28
                  Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

                  We are out of state and have been going once every couple years with 5 day park hoppers. During that stay we pick one park treat a day. We eat outside the park for every meal. The only dinner we eat in the park is on our last day. We also only buy one souvenir each and we do that on the last day. So we are pretty stingy on in park spending I'd say, and we don't have APs.
                  * *The dreams that you wish will come true* *

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                  • #29
                    Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

                    Originally posted by sediment View Post
                    I counted two of them. So, per guest, it's $12.50.
                    Smart AP'ers buy one annual parking pass for WAY less than parking for 12 days (main cause of the parking nightmares, btw, as it lowers the number of guests per vehicle and thus increases the number off vehicles ceteris paribus).
                    When one person spends money for 2 and you count it as "per guest" spending, it implies the guests are stingy. I guess I understand why the stingy argument gets out-of-hand. It is a ridiculous situation.

                    Disney is lucky to get any customers in this situation.

                    What's so stingy about one guest of a couple who buys an AP that costs about $300 each, and then spends $300 over a year and parking. That's a lot more than if they bother to go for one day on day pass.

                    Smart customers may very well buy the parking pass, but not everyone wants to pay for these things upfront because they might not know their schedule in the months ahead. You can't presume it.

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                    • #31
                      Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

                      Originally posted by UncleWally'sNiece View Post
                      I'm definitely with you on that. My honey and I spend an average $100 per visit. We usually go 10 times a year. That adds up. I'd love to see the numbers on how that compares to a tourist family of two visiting the park once a year.
                      Hotel stays aside, the real trick for Disney is to get an AP holder to stop coming 10 times, and replace them with two or three 4 day visits from tourists who will be buying the meal plans, and leaving with lots of one-off souvenirs. The reason for doing the comparison that way is because then both will be in the park "the same amount of time". It is much harder for Disney to do that, but there is no doubt that a park full of tourists day after day will make more money than a park full of AP's.

                      If we do include the hotel, if I was to book a 5 day trip to Disneyland right now through them, it would be $360 per day without food, souvenirs or flights for two people. My trip would usually have $250 for souvenirs for myself and $15+ per meal for food each. Now that adds up. Not only that, but if we compare that to an AP holder who goes to the park for fullish days, I still have only been in the park half as long as them assuming that your 10 days was somehow the average. More money in for less cost to the park.

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                      • #32
                        Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

                        "the real trick for Disney is to get an AP holder to stop coming 10 times, and replace them with two or three 4 day visits from tourists who will be buying the meal plans, and leaving with lots of one-off souvenirs."

                        If Disney would have found the trick, it would have already done it. I'll tell you why it hasn't been done. The margins don't change. A dollar revenue from a local is no different from a dollar revenue from a tourist if the profit is the same, even if the tourist spends 3 dollars more per visit. So should a Disney leave money on the table? A local who buys an AP has already outspent the tourist without setting foot in the park.

                        Besides, they are two separate markets. They work independently. If Disney gets a bad year from tourists, to whom will they appeal to come to the rescue? Tourism is subject to conditions outside of Disney's control like geopolitical and economic. Locals are much easier and immediate. Two tracks, two revenue streams.

                        Anyways, this debate is comical because the benefit to a less crowded Disney park is to the advantage of Disneyland park veterans that are mostly locals. Maybe they own AP too.

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                        • #33
                          Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

                          Originally posted by Trevor View Post
                          Hotel stays aside, the real trick for Disney is to get an AP holder to stop coming 10 times, and replace them with two or three 4 day visits from tourists who will be buying the meal plans, and leaving with lots of one-off souvenirs. The reason for doing the comparison that way is because then both will be in the park "the same amount of time". It is much harder for Disney to do that, but there is no doubt that a park full of tourists day after day will make more money than a park full of AP's.
                          I know just the solution.

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                          • #34
                            Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

                            Originally posted by StevenW View Post
                            When one person spends money for 2 and you count it as "per guest" spending, it implies the guests are stingy. I guess I understand why the stingy argument gets out-of-hand. It is a ridiculous situation.

                            Disney is lucky to get any customers in this situation.

                            What's so stingy about one guest of a couple who buys an AP that costs about $300 each, and then spends $300 over a year and parking. That's a lot more than if they bother to go for one day on day pass.

                            Smart customers may very well buy the parking pass, but not everyone wants to pay for these things upfront because they might not know their schedule in the months ahead. You can't presume it.
                            First off: "stingy" is smart spending at the micro level. Smart is always better than the alternative in a person, to me.
                            However, in a macro sense from the company's POV, "stingy" is bad. The company is attracting more "stingy" customers with the AP than the free-spending types. These customers know a good deal when they see it, so you'll never EVER see me blaming the customer for accepting a good deal in their eyes. I blame the company for offering it.

                            OK, so one person pays for two. You see that. Do you also see the one person not paying anything? So I did something called "averaging."

                            You keep missing the point that many potential customers (there are 20 million in a six-county area) don't find the park worth attending once a year at $100 each, because it is too crowded. The 1 million frequently repeating customers don't balance the bottom line.

                            If we have to distort the metrics to deceive our opponents, let's do it right:
                            Per guest per YEAR spending (your metric) is higher with an AP Program. But there are fewer unique guests with an AP Program.
                            Per guest per VISIT spending is lower with an AP Program. AP price has to be allocated for each visit, combined with the AP'er's lower per visit spending (ON AVERAGE!)

                            Meanwhile there are daily costs to running a Resort, which we never get into, because no one knows any details. Suffice to say that there will be fixed daily costs and variable (on number guests) costs. And probably some other costs.

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                            • #35
                              Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

                              Originally posted by StevenW View Post
                              "the real trick for Disney is to get an AP holder to stop coming 10 times, and replace them with two or three 4 day visits from tourists who will be buying the meal plans, and leaving with lots of one-off souvenirs."

                              If Disney would have found the trick, it would have already done it. I'll tell you why it hasn't been done. The margins don't change. A dollar revenue from a local is no different from a dollar revenue from a tourist if the profit is the same, even if the tourist spends 3 dollars more per visit. So should a Disney leave money on the table? A local who buys an AP has already outspent the tourist without setting foot in the park.

                              Besides, they are two separate markets. They work independently. If Disney gets a bad year from tourists, to whom will they appeal to come to the rescue? Tourism is subject to conditions outside of Disney's control like geopolitical and economic. Locals are much easier and immediate. Two tracks, two revenue streams.

                              Anyways, this debate is comical because the benefit to a less crowded Disney park is to the advantage of Disneyland park veterans that are mostly locals. Maybe they own AP too.
                              Without the AP Program, the locals would pay to enter a less busy park, in what would be known as an "off-season." They would probably pay less in this off-season, as the company would discount entrance during these times.
                              Granted this is a highly revolutionary business strategy, years ahead of its time, if by "years ahead" I mean the first 40 years of the company's existence.

                              Two separate markets, but for the exact same product at the exact same time. I think the "two separate market" idea would work great if there weren't PAP's and DAP's clogging up the busy tourist days. So, those are the first to go.

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                              • #36
                                Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

                                Originally posted by StevenW View Post
                                Anyways, this debate is comical because the benefit to a less crowded Disney park is to the advantage of Disneyland park veterans that are mostly locals. Maybe they own AP too.
                                Yeah, leaving aside the comical nature of pretending to know things about Disney's finances that Disney doesn't, these debates always sound like a bunch of veterans upset that other people are using the parks without truly deserving it, whatever that means.

                                I mean, look at terms like "clogging up." These are people who paid hundreds of dollars for a pass that lets them into Disneyland, and heaven forbid they actually use it! How dare these ungrateful locals clog up the parks, when the parks really should be filled with... other people... for some reason...

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                                • #37
                                  Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

                                  "You keep missing the point that many potential customers (there are 20 million in a six-county area) don't find the park worth attending once a year at $100 each, because it is too crowded. The 1 million frequently repeating customers don't balance the bottom line."

                                  If this is the point, you really don't have one. Did you read the latest financial report? Disney DID balance the bottom line and made $2 Billion in profits.

                                  It is not logical to argue people are not coming to the park when it is too crowded.

                                  The per guest spending and park maintenance costs were always exercises that we debaters get into, but I'm using it to refute your argument, not prove it. They were always internal data that is of use to Disney. I am unconcerned. Somehow you think it matters. Based on the released financial figures, you can't keep pursuing it since it doesn't reach your goal. Disney is doing quite well. There is no proof that it will do better with a less busy park.

                                  "They would probably pay less in this off-season, as the company would discount entrance during these times."

                                  What is the goal? Less busy park and lower park costs. You won't get more guest spending and more revenue. You might get more "per guest" spending at the cost of less revenue.

                                  Is going back 2 decades the goal?

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                                  • #38
                                    Re: Micechat Update: DAC, No X-mas Parties for awhile,

                                    I guess I have looked at myself as one of those budgeted APers. Especially since the price of the AP has gone up I probably have spent less in the park. Then I started thinking that since I had an AP have have eaten at more of the nicer restaurants like Blue Bayou, Carthay Circle, and Steakhouse 55. Napa Rose is still on my list. Most of these restaurants are probably overlooked by tourists not wanting to spend the large amount and/or wanting something quick and going on about their day.

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