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  • Originally posted by Cuzco-topia
    I wasn't attacking your argument...i was making a comment on the entire thread. Everyone is going around and around and it's making me dizzy. I think i'm going to sit down and put a cold wet cloth on my head. Have fun you crazy kids!
    I'm with you, Cuzco. Jane! Stop this crazy thing!
    Honor those who fall under the sword.
    But pity the warrior who has slain all his enemies.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by cellarhound
      I have disagreed with dshimel in the past myself... I respect his position on it... But I don't think DCA's problem was theme... And unfortunately they will never approach the park with several milliondollars and a bulldozer...
      Hundreds of millions more like it....

      Do I think they'll come in and "remake" DCA.... No. As much as I like the idea of giving the park an extreme makeover, I doubt it will happen.

      DCA will get a couple more e-tickets, and those e-tickets will continue to move the park away from the original mundane CA theme... The park will be better, but still have a horrid theme.

      Then we'll get a 3rd gate.... to will be built out.

      Eventually, crap in DCA will need to be redone..... Route 66 will make way for something else. The rides in Bugsland will be replaced with something else. Bread and Tortillas will go away and be replaced with something else.... It will be like DL's slow transformation from Indian Village, stage coach rides and Hall of Aluminum into BTMRR, Star Tours and Indy.


      That doesn't mean that the "bunch of real-world crap that people could easily do, but few bother" wasn't a really stupid idea for a theme park.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Reaver
        Now you're just copying and pasting from your own posts.

        Becuase you haven't yet come close to attempting to meet the challenge!!!!


        I challenge you to try to make an argument as to why all the real world crap that people could easily do, but don't bother to, is such a great them for a theme park!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cuzco-topia
          I wasn't attacking your argument...i was making a comment on the entire thread.
          I know....

          I was simply extending the offer to you as well....

          I challenge you to try to make an argument as to why all the real world crap that people could easily do, but don't bother to, is such a great them for a theme park!

          Come on.... Take the dare!!!!!

          Comment


          • Ok fine *cracks knuckles*

            These places in CA that supposedly people could easily do outside the park may be not so easy to do, due to such things as distance, price, weather, transportation, timing, family, work...etc the list goes on and on. Also, it would take quite a few days to be able to start at the top of CA and work your way down to the bottom doing all that there is to do in sunny CA. DCA provides a safe, fun alternative way to cover most of the basics, all in one little neat package and for one low price, complete with a little disney magic thrown in for good measure.

            So, would I love to see the "real thing' in this great state I call home. Sure I would. Is it possible for me to take the time off and save enough money to travel this state? Maybe, but it sure would take a lot of time...a lot of money. So, why not make a day of CA at DCA?
            Marge: Barnacle Bill's Home Pregnancy Test? Homer, shouldn't we have gone with a better-known brand?
            Homer: But Marge, this one came with a corn-cob pipe!
            Marge: [reading from the test box] "Ahoy, Maties! If the water turns blue, a baby for you! If purple ye see, no baby thar be!"
            Homer: So, which is it? Blue or purple?
            Marge: Pink.
            Homer: D'oh!
            Marge: "If ye test should fail, to a doctor set sail!"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by dshimel
              NO....

              Once again, I'm basing my arguement on the irrefutable facts that most of the things depicted in DCA as the land themes(run-down airport, farm, vinyard, wharf, generic amusement park land) really exist and people could really do them, but few bother.

              Where is the flaw?
              Are there run-down airports?
              You also choose to debate the merit of the theming of Condor Flats and fail to recognize the cost and value of the glider amusement inside Condor Flats. Do you know how much a glider ride costs? Not everyone can afford it but I guess that a little too real world for you. *jams his sarcasm button*

              Are there farms?
              Oh wow you got me there. I suggest in thread 167 that they use this as a place to recall the great struggle of the depression era where folks did in fact swarm to CA because of the economic conditions- Is our farmland important? It was then and it is today but the history is lost in the modern farm technology exhibit.
              Are there vinyards?
              Yes cause everyone can afford a trip to Napa Valley- oh joy. Now I did suggest the addition of color and flare to this area, add some mock hot air ballons in the hills to simulate Napa Valley, give it some color and style
              Are there wharf?
              I suppose SF is the one weakness to DCA I complely agree with, it is however the point from where the expansion would seemingly take place so I am giving it time
              Are there generic amusment parks?
              There sure are and thats why people hate Paradise Pier and the point of this thread. Not many people are disagreeing with you here so why are you angry about this?

              Are these thing swarmed with people?
              I did point out the geographical distances and fuel costs involved with inheriant trips to see each of these places. Did you see the cost? You wanna pay my gas bill?

              Unless you answerd no to the above questions, then my argument isn't just
              based on my opinion. And, AT LEAST I'm making an arguemnt!!!!!

              All you're doing is disagreeing with me.
              Your dang right- but I am not JUST disagreeing, I am presenting my argument.

              I did in fact create a sarcastic rebutile to this very notion in post 167. If you carefully reread and digest this post, which you seem to have overlooked or replied to, I outline in a basic manner the costs involved in traveling from each of these "real world" areas to the other, if you in fact already lived in here in the State of California. My argument doesn't event take into account the cost of an out of stater who would have to purchase airfaire and rent a car on top of these costs and provide for lodgings.

              One more time.

              I challenge you to try to make an argument as to why all the real world crap that people could easily do, but don't bother to, is such a great them for a theme park!

              For a change, just once, just try to make your own argument about why it is a good theme, instead of just making your posts attacks on my argument.

              Challange meet. Next.






              Comment


              • Originally posted by ModHatter
                Again, if you look at an aerial photo, Stinger is at the westernmost edge of Screamin. So, rounding out that part of the lagoon and building a ride there would add to the feeling of a seaside pier. Besides, most piers of this sort have that classic Victorian building that used to house a dance hall.

                Filler is fine, as filler, a space saver until you can put a real attraction in. But with the addition of Bug's Land, there is too much filler, not enough being put in to replace the filler.

                IMO, the Lagoon needs to do more than just sit there and look pretty at night. Even RoA has TSI to serve a purpose. The Screamin area needs to shift gears andrepresent a boardwalk, and the pier itself should start somewhere between the Sun Wheel and Screamin's first hill. It doesn't have to house anything too elaborate, but it could, and still afford plenty of room in the lagoon for a water show. Maybe a replacement of the Cove Bar area, which will hopefully be bulldozed as part of the T&P expansion.
                I have looked at many aerial photos, in fact I think I've linked more aerial photos to this MB then anyone else

                we may have to agree to dissagree on this one,

                I agree that there is too much filler and I do find it Ironic that one of the managements first reactions to this parks problem was to pile MORE filler into the park (like I said in my Saving the Farm thread a Bugs Land could have been phased better into the farm and had more magical interactive walkind darkride type touches if they'd simply built it indoors)

                Speaking of my saving the farm thread http://www.micechat.com/showthread.php?t=1041

                this reflects pretty well how I think DCA should be done, you have a thrills family and filler additions to a land right there and I think that with expansion like that in the farm you would end up with an area that has well rounded offerings

                at the Pier I think that the major addition it needs right now are a good darkride and then a good lagoonshow ontop of that

                right now DCA needs to concentrait on increasing the amount of substence it adds to intself while keeping as much of itself open as possible

                it's already a half day park I'm not sure that it can stomach having itself shut down piece by piece and totaly revamped

                a better solution might be to open up newer areas and once the structure of the paths is sufficent then they can double back and take out the Route 66 area


                as far as putting the water into a beach area we also need to consider the effect that sand would have on the lagoon's lake system, what with the wave machine (that doesn't often work) and everything else i'm not sure how it would handle the introduction of sand or how the sand would stay up on the coast

                I'm not sure I think that they should consider having a second beach area behind the Paradise Pier hotel (allowing this hotel to offer dual beach views) it could be a second lake/shoping district expansion (remeber when the plans for downtown disney included it being built around a lake?) the area could include the long missed paddle boats as well as the lake being extended into sand

                OR they could build a beach themed water park behind it with giant sandcastles to explore with caves and waterslides
                "We all have sparks, imagination! it's how our minds... create creations!"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ah schucks
                  No but this still doesn't sound like an answer my challange- these are modifications on the CA theme- not a new theme or a better theme
                  What are you smoking???? can I get some.


                  How is "under the sea sand castle land", Nemo's Austrailia, Lilo and Stitches' Hawaii, and extension of a generic wilderness land, expansion of and better rides for bugs land, and total replacement of the wharf with a major new land into the Timon.... modifications to the CA theme???????

                  It is taking the good parts we're stuck with (Screamin, bay, grotto, GRR), making them better, and replacing the real crap (wharf, farm) with new, exotic, fantastic!


                  Specific new ideas for the expansions? Agrobah... Aladdin is good enough and the movies has more than enough ride ideas it would support, to make a great land, with a great arabian/desert theme.... turn Aladdin's oaisis back into a jungle theme.

                  Expidetion everest..... Would make a great berm to separate DCA from the water park I'd put along Katella and on the site Alpine Craptel is taking up now.

                  Or, perhaps Belle's France... It doesn't have to be way over the top cartoon-y... Just France, maybe a mini-Notra Dame, french pastery shop, living statues, model of DLP showing how beautiful that park is... Small Beauty and the Beast and/or Hunchback ride(s) in the back of the land.

                  Or maybe Athens.... Parthenon, Heraclies, Socraties, Zeus, birthplace of democracy and philosophy... Cognito Sum, battle of Thermopoli, vestal virgins, Oracle of Delphi.... Alexander the Great.... Jason and the Argonauts, The Odyssey, Trojan War.....

                  Or maybe China. Great wall, gun powder and fireworks, forbidden palace, jade gardens, Ming Dynasty, dragons and ancestors.... Mulan?


                  As I said, better themes are a piece of cake.... I do have a hard time coming up with worse though... let's see..... In order, the worst 10 themes for a them park that I can come up with.

                  #10 wharf
                  #9 factory-land
                  #8 generic-amusement-park-land
                  #7 parking-lot-land
                  #6 Run-down-airport-land
                  #5 L.A.-land
                  #4 farm
                  #3 abortion-clincic-land
                  #2 road-side-carnival-land
                  #1 land-fill-land

                  So, DCA didn't hit all the worst possible ideas... just half of them!

                  Comment


                  • I really need to make that new thread I keep planning on the subject of the present reality and dealing with DCA but I keep putting it off :P

                    I will collect my thoughts and put most of the ideas I've had in there

                    now as far as remaking DCA into a fantastic park goes, my number 1 problem with this plan that Wrongway likes to pitch is that it will look reletivly conviluted and I can imagine many sections of the park being as flawed if not MORE flawed then the genious remake of Tomorrowland into Discoveryland which we all know as the project known as Tomorrowland98
                    "We all have sparks, imagination! it's how our minds... create creations!"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jspider
                      as far as putting the water into a beach area we also need to consider the effect that sand would have on the lagoon's lake system, what with the wave machine (that doesn't often work) and everything else i'm not sure how it would handle the introduction of sand or how the sand would stay up on the coast

                      I'm not sure I think that they should consider having a second beach area behind the Paradise Pier hotel (allowing this hotel to offer dual beach views) it could be a second lake/shoping district expansion (remeber when the plans for downtown disney included it being built around a lake?) the area could include the long missed paddle boats as well as the lake being extended into sand

                      OR they could build a beach themed water park behind it with giant sandcastles to explore with caves and waterslides
                      :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
                      Excellent suggestions. All of which seem logical and well developed. I would however like to point out that there is sand against the Pardise Pier lagoon, if you look by the Zepher there is whispy plant life and an east coast looking beach area that you cannot get at. I believe its not real sand. The second beach area is far superior though.

                      I also agree you can't overhaul the entire park at once it will require planning and time.






                      Comment


                      • As has been said over and over and over again, many people have expressed that a stict adherence to a modern California theme fails the "interesting" test in the "immersion into interesting illusion." Of course, considering how many people still come to California to travel or live permanently, I think even the contemporary theme COULD have been done in an interesting way.

                        Let's look at Tomorrowland. Its THEME, theoretically, is something that you don't even have to leave the HOUSE to see -- just wait a day, and you're there. The EXECUTION is what determines success or failure. Immersive rides and environments? Success. Too many shows and an overall lack of charm? Failure.

                        So, just to bottom line it, the THEME isn't bad, it's the EXECUTION. 'Nuff said, moving on... back to the topic.

                        Paradise Pier is this weird battle of theme. It's clearly meant to evoke a sense of history, but be modern. Really, "Age of Aquarius" a la Calliope music is personally horrifying. If Paradise Pier had been approached the way many California historical sites are, they would play period music, wear period costumes, work harder to imagine the site as it existed in its heyday.
                        See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
                        78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

                        "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

                        "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

                        -- Walt Disney

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by dshimel
                          What are you smoking???? can I get some.
                          Again with the slanderous comments. Do you wield these

                          How is "under the sea sand castle land", Nemo's Austrailia, Lilo and Stitches' Hawaii, and extension of a generic wilderness land, expansion of and better rides for bugs land, and total replacement of the wharf with a major new land into the Timon.... modifications to the CA theme???????

                          It is taking the good parts we're stuck with (Screamin, bay, grotto, GRR), making them better, and replacing the real crap (wharf, farm) with new, exotic, fantastic![/QUOTE] Yeah yes this was your post5, good you can copy and paste I am so happy for you. This answers the first part of the thread let see if you got the second- my challange to you?

                          ************************************************** ********

                          Specific new ideas for the expansions? Agrobah... Aladdin is good enough and the movies has more than enough ride ideas it would support, to make a great land, with a great arabian/desert theme.... turn Aladdin's oaisis back into a jungle theme.

                          Expidetion everest..... Would make a great berm to separate DCA from the water park I'd put along Katella and on the site Alpine Craptel is taking up now.

                          Or, perhaps Belle's France... It doesn't have to be way over the top cartoon-y... Just France, maybe a mini-Notra Dame, french pastery shop, living statues, model of DLP showing how beautiful that park is... Small Beauty and the Beast and/or Hunchback ride(s) in the back of the land.

                          Or maybe Athens.... Parthenon, Heraclies, Socraties, Zeus, birthplace of democracy and philosophy... Cognito Sum, battle of Thermopoli, vestal virgins, Oracle of Delphi.... Alexander the Great.... Jason and the Argonauts, The Odyssey, Trojan War.....

                          Or maybe China. Great wall, gun powder and fireworks, forbidden palace, jade gardens, Ming Dynasty, dragons and ancestors.... Mulan?


                          As I said, better themes are a piece of cake....
                          Wow so you would add these to the already exsistent park or in substitution- cause we know they won't destroy DCA and start over which was one of the addendiums Jspider added to my challange to you.

                          What would you rename this? Do you think it would shake investor confidence in Disney to completly abandon the CA theme all together and reinvent itself? Describe the marketing campaign to me: We screwed up so we tossed a bunch of lop-sided ideas into the remainder of the park. Wow that's fantastic.

                          Also for an expert in theme parks and water Parks you certainly don't follow the finacial failure of many of the So Cal water parks over recent years who cannot operate during the winter when it reachs into the 40s, 50s and 60s here.



                          I do have a hard time coming up with worse though... let's see..... In order, the worst 10 themes for a them park that I can come up with.

                          #10 wharf
                          #9 factory-land
                          #8 generic-amusement-park-land
                          #7 parking-lot-land
                          #6 Run-down-airport-land
                          #5 L.A.-land
                          #4 farm
                          #3 abortion-clincic-land
                          #2 road-side-carnival-land
                          #1 land-fill-land

                          So, DCA didn't hit all the worst possible ideas... just half of them!
                          Aww you made a list how cute- oh you just copied DCA- wow more opinion I am dying from a lack of surprise.






                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ModHatter
                            Paradise Pier is this weird battle of theme. It's clearly meant to evoke a sense of history, but be modern. Really, "Age of Aquarius" a la Calliope music is personally horrifying. If Paradise Pier had been approached the way many California historical sites are, they would play period music, wear period costumes, work harder to imagine the site as it existed in its heyday.
                            Oh I love this idea! Seriously...I keep saying make it seem like a fun experiance and it will be! Bravo :bow: :bow: :bow:






                            Comment


                            • California is a large diverse state with everything from the mountains of the Sierra Nevada to the beaches of Malibu and the deserts of Death Valley. It has one of the most beautiful parks in world in Yosemite and the tallest trees, the Redwoods. It has some of the most bountiful farms in the world and the iconography of orange groves still resonates. It is home to the dreamfactory, Hollywood, and one of the great cosmopolitan cities of the world, San Francisco. It's diverse, immigrant population is half to 2/3 that of France, the UK and Italy and more than Canada. Its history is rich with native peoples, Spanish missionaries and those seeking their fortune in other ways. Its aircraft industry was the powering force behind both the military and civilian air travel. It is a land of hopes and dreams for millions.

                              As a theme, I can think of few as diverse and open to possibilities as California.

                              Has DCA implemented the theme well? No, it has not. There are numerous flaws. However, the basic idea is sound.

                              A run-down airport? Not at all. A romantic, functional airport celebrating "The Right Stuff" and aeronautical pioneers. This is the airport of the Bell X-1, where Chuck Yeager broke the sound barrier and the planes that won WW2 rolled off the assembly lines. This airport isn't dead, either, it is where Burt Rutan launched Spaceship One, Voyager and White Knight.

                              A farm? Not just a
                              Last edited by Importance; 03-23-2005, 04:50 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Cuzco-topia
                                These places in CA that supposedly people could easily do outside the park may be not so easy to do,
                                Cable airport... distance: 30 miles. cost: free
                                http://www.cableairport.com/live_cams.htm

                                Dagget airport distance 115 miles...
                                http://www.airnav.com/airport/KDAG

                                Between the 2 are Redlands and Apple Valley airports.

                                ++++++++++++++

                                15 vineyards in Temecula.
                                http://ks.essortment.com/callawayvineyar_rter.htm
                                62 miles. Cost: free.

                                ++++++++++++++

                                Do I need to list the farms out near Riverside.

                                Castle park or whatever that park is in Redlands.

                                Ports o' Call just past Long Beach, Dana Point or Sea Port village a whole 2-hours away, or the dozens of other wharf-like areas?

                                Cost: FREE!!!!!

                                Big Bear, hour and a half.... Angeles National forest, hour?

                                ++++++++++++++

                                OH WAIT... it is just my opinion that these things exist close by for free or a price far cheaper than DCA's $53 gate price.




                                The argument of having to travel long distances over an extended period of time simply falls flat in the face of the evidence of all the similar things there are to do very close by. There is no need to travel the whole state to see the crappy themes depicted in DCA. There is no cost or huge time consumption..... And these plaves are NOT packed with visitors clamoring for a chance to see them....

                                It was a good try though, but just proves how weak the argumet for DCA's themes being good choice truly is.

                                Care to try again?

                                You could try... It was super cheap to build, letting them devote more money to the rides.

                                How about, it distracted from the other crap that is around the area that people could do, if they cared to....

                                Other attempts at justification of the crappy theme?

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by dshimel

                                  The argument of having to travel long distances over an extended period of time simply falls flat in the face of the evidence of all the similar things there are to do very close by. There is no need to travel the whole state to see the crappy themes depicted in DCA. There is no cost or huge time consumption..... And these plaves are NOT packed with visitors clamoring for a chance to see them....
                                  So, are you saying that these things/places outside of DCA are just crappy in general?
                                  Marge: Barnacle Bill's Home Pregnancy Test? Homer, shouldn't we have gone with a better-known brand?
                                  Homer: But Marge, this one came with a corn-cob pipe!
                                  Marge: [reading from the test box] "Ahoy, Maties! If the water turns blue, a baby for you! If purple ye see, no baby thar be!"
                                  Homer: So, which is it? Blue or purple?
                                  Marge: Pink.
                                  Homer: D'oh!
                                  Marge: "If ye test should fail, to a doctor set sail!"

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by ah schucks
                                    Wow so you would add these to the already exsistent park or in substitution- cause we know they won't destroy DCA and start over which was one of the addendiums Jspider added to my challange to you.
                                    I would start with the things listed above... Under the sea, Australia, Hawaii, expanded woods and bugs...

                                    A couple of my ideas would be used for the wharf replacement and 20 or so acres left in Timon. Not all of these ideas... a couple... what there is room for.


                                    Only think I'm bulldozing is the wharf..... just a bunch of usually closed restaurants and a couple dorky factories anyway Heck the could save the buildings and rework them into France or Agrobah or Greece....

                                    The rework of pier, route 66, bay, farm is no more extreme than the rework of mine train into BTMRR or tomorrowland into ST, Buzz, Space Mt, or SSL into Monsters Inc.

                                    The point is to transform real crap that is real close that no one wants to do, into stuff people will think "Wow, that is so cooooool.... I've always wanted to go there and see that!!!!!"

                                    Comment


                                    • Can we please get back on topic here? Arguing about this is pointless. dshimel will never, EVER think the theme of DCA is a good idea, and will therefore never think the park can succeed unless they change the theme and most of the rides. So let's just let this pointless argument derail, shall we? Get back to discussing options that pertain to the existing park AS IT IS. If we can't do that, we shouldn't be posting here. Let it go. This horse is days dead. Continuing to beat it will get us nowhere...
                                      Honor those who fall under the sword.
                                      But pity the warrior who has slain all his enemies.

                                      Comment


                                      • Now who is smoking what? Free?

                                        Originally posted by dshimel
                                        OH WAIT... it is just my opinion that these things exist close by for free or a price far cheaper than DCA's $53 gate price.
                                        How is that freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee? You totally negated the fuel aspect? Let alone out of state travelers? Do not ridicule my argument by ignoring the basis for it; Fuel.


                                        The argument of having to travel long distances over an extended period of time simply falls flat in the face of the evidence of all the similar things there are to do very close by. There is no need to travel the whole state to see the crappy themes depicted in DCA. There is no cost or huge time consumption..... And these plaves are NOT packed with visitors clamoring for a chance to see them....
                                        Again do you have a magic carpet? Where are you gonna stay when you get there?

                                        It was a good try though, but just proves how weak the argumet for DCA's themes being good choice truly is.

                                        Care to try again?

                                        You could try... It was super cheap to build, letting them devote more money to the rides.

                                        How about, it distracted from the other crap that is around the area that people could do, if they cared to....

                                        Other attempts at justification of the crappy theme?
                                        I never said it wasn't super cheap and easy to build and I have continually said it has its fair share of problems but it exsist stop being such a winey nihlist and trying to ignore the reality of what is there and what can be fixed. You add insult to injury by arguing for modifications and then saying the whole thing sucks.

                                        I believe and stand by my support for the theme. It has its fair share of issues and I have put those out there. Those issues can be resolved and myself and other have suggested them but you seem to ignore them or breeze over them.

                                        The reality theme may not work as well as they hoped. However for 53 dollars until the fix the park familys can come see things at a fraction of the cost they would have in the real world -if they don't own a free magic carpet like yourself.

                                        Oh I found you another avatar. I was looking for someone who was obsessed with Disney and sex but I couldn't find one.






                                        Comment


                                        • What if they connect PP to where ToT is? Open it up...have some sort of transition from each land?
                                          Marge: Barnacle Bill's Home Pregnancy Test? Homer, shouldn't we have gone with a better-known brand?
                                          Homer: But Marge, this one came with a corn-cob pipe!
                                          Marge: [reading from the test box] "Ahoy, Maties! If the water turns blue, a baby for you! If purple ye see, no baby thar be!"
                                          Homer: So, which is it? Blue or purple?
                                          Marge: Pink.
                                          Homer: D'oh!
                                          Marge: "If ye test should fail, to a doctor set sail!"

                                          Comment

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