Paradise Pier Removal

[Awe_inspired]

Thanks shimel!! I've enjoyed reading this thread!

[ah schucks]

They paved paradise and put up a parking lot
With a pink hotel, a boutique, and a swingin' hot spot
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you got 'til it's gone
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot
------------------------------------
They took all the trees, and put em in a tree museum
And they charged the people a dollar and a half to see them
No, no, no
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you got 'til it's gone
They paved paradise, and put up a parking lot
-----------------------------------------
Hey farmer, farmer, put away your DDT
I don't care about spots on my apples,
Leave me the birds and the bees
Please
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you got 'til it's gone
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot
Hey now, they paved paradise to put up a parking lot
Why not?
__________________________________

Listen, late last night, I heard the screen door slam
And a big yellow taxi took my girl away
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you got 'til it's gone
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot
Well, don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you got 'til it's gone
They paved paradise to put up a parking lot
Why not?
They paved paradise and put up a parking lot
Hey hey hey
Paved paradise and put up a parking lot

April Fools Sucka- You thought I was gonna argue!
This one's for MM!

[dshimel]

When I first saw this thread back at the top of the board, I cringed.... No need to open old wounds...

Then I read the post that resurected the topic from the dead...

Simply wonderful. April fools my arse.... Nothing foolish about this dream at all. More like an awesome concept for resurecting the park from the dead.

Likely to happen? Unfortunatly, probably not..... But awesome to read and dream about.... Now that is a park that would be worth $50+ to get into!

[Awe_inspired]

[dshimel]

It always amuses me when people refer to Six Flags as a derogatory example. Last I checked, Six Flags has more parks than the mouse, and their coasters are the world leaders.

And they've lost $274 million over the last 3 years on an average $1.1 billion a year total revenue. You can buy the whole company for $390 million plus taking on their $3 billion in liabilities.

Compare this to DLR parks and resorts division averaging over $6 billion a year in revenue, $1 billion a year operating income, and $300 million a year profitability.

They don't add these great coasters every couple years because they want to. They are forced to add these or see their revenue plumit.

Compare this to DL which can pull 12 million people a year even without having added a major new ride in the last 10 years.

As for the pier, it was designed to reflect that sort of thrill ride beach side park, and it does it well. Again, whether you like it or not - whether you think it's ugly or beautiful, is all a matter of opinion. I disagree with you, but that doesn't mean you're wrong...

Those sea-side generic amusement parks that were so finacially sucessful that almost all of them are now gone.

It is not opinion that these generic sea-side places really exist, but few people actually bother to go see them, and none are willing to pay $53 a person per day for the oppertunity.

Repeatedly, I've tried to keep the discussion away from personal opinion. For every person that says they like it, someone else will sy they don't, and vise-verse.

The entiritey of my argument is that these places exist, are easy to visit, are much cheaper than DCA, and still they (the real versions) fail to pull crowds. No one has attempted to refute this....

They fall back to "hey, I like it". Great, if Disney was seeking to please a couple dozen on-line fanatics, they've done that well.

However, if they were actually trying to build a park that millions of people would be willing to pay full price for.... Not so much.

[ModHatter]

Well, technically, Epcot didn't suffer so much from a lack of thrill rides as it did ANY rides... One ride in World Showcase and sponsor-intensive rides in Future World are a bad combo. I think the real problem with FutureWorld wasn't the edumucation, but the infomercial quality of it all. Sort of like when you pay good money to see a movie, and you have to sit through an hour of commercials.

As for Disney's America... let's not forget that a lot of the concepts for that park came to DCA. However, if the park were executed in a manner befitting the concept art, it would have blown DCA out of the water. But, realistically, DCA as a rough draft blows the executuion of DCA out of the water too.

People always seem to jump on the edumucational bandwagon because Americans are supposedly yokels, but few people consider the historical areas of Disneyland edumucational. The real word is "experiential." That's just the trouble with Paradise Pier... by being this modern mish-mash, it doesn't transport you, doesn't enable you to experience a different reality. There isn't enough to make you suspend your disbelief.

[Jspider]

youknow on the subject of Disney's America park

I'm really not convinced it'd be as great as some people make it out to be it seems to me that it would be very historical and edumacational and alot of the ideas sound pretty boring

I mean i can imagine a few nice looking places in the park but there isn't anything about Disney's America that really excites me or convinces me that it would've been something all that much better then DCA turned out to be

if Epcot needed more thrills I can only imagine the shot in the arm Disney's America would've needed (sounds like a museum and youknow Science Centers always seemed more interesting to me then museums because science fairs are interactive and science just seems more interesting o_o)

I dunno a park based on pure history just doesn't sound that great, Disneyland works because it has history but it's well rounded in about everything else too

[Reaver]

The pier is not okay.... It is an insult to Disney standards of theming and story telling. It is Six Flags quality top to bottom, and it damages the Disney brand with its existance.

The pier is what the pier is, but there is NO reason to accept that the pier is what the pier will always be. It doesn't need "some improvements". It needs an extreme makeover. It needs a new theme that doesn't attempt to recreate a Six Flags park.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It always amuses me when people refer to Six Flags as a derogatory example. Last I checked, Six Flags has more parks than the mouse, and their coasters are the world leaders. When I want thrills, I go to MM, not DL. I hit up the mouse when I'm looking for magic, fun and atmosphere. Six Flags never tried to compete with Disney for an entire theme for a park, so why compare the two? True, MM is getting a bit dishevled of late, but it's rides (the reason I go) still amaze and thrill. This is like comparing a Lincoln Town Car to a Shelby Cobra. One has all the atmosphere and luxuries, while the other has all the speed and sport. There's no point in comparing the two, because they're simply in different classes.

As for the pier, it was designed to reflect that sort of thrill ride beach side park, and it does it well. Again, whether you like it or not - whether you think it's ugly or beautiful, is all a matter of opinion. I disagree with you, but that doesn't mean you're wrong...

[dshimel]

it sounds like everyone has the same basic feeling, the pier is ok, but needs some improvement. lets face it no matter what we say here, the pier is what the pier is. the best thing we can do is deal with it and hope that they make some improvements in time.

The pier is not okay.... It is an insult to Disney standards of theming and story telling. It is Six Flags quality top to bottom, and it damages the Disney brand with its existance.

The pier is what the pier is, but there is NO reason to accept that the pier is what the pier will always be. It doesn't need "some improvements". It needs an extreme makeover. It needs a new theme that doesn't attempt to recreate a Six Flags park.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Dropping part of the name like Epcot or loosing the MGM name is one thing, but suppose they dropped "Studios" from the MGM name and called it Super Coll Disney Place in Florida.

No need to be snide, friend. "Super Cool Disney Place in Florida" isn't the same as "Disney's American Adventure." In fact, Disney considered a "Disney's America" park in the past.

But you're right; it is not likely they would make that large a change. Trample not upon my pipe dreams, thanks!

[ah schucks]

No Corporate Weakness at Disney? That's debatable, little britches. I'll bet you'd find lotsa folks who'd beg to differ (including Roy E. Disney).

-=Dan=-

I did not say there was no corporate weakness at Disney. I think thats what got us into this mess over DCA in the first place. No what I said was renaming the park all willy nilly and slathering a lame name on it would result in a show of corperate weakness, something Disney should want to avoid. Dropping part of the name like Epcot or loosing the MGM name is one thing, but suppose they dropped "Studios" from the MGM name and called it Super Coll Disney Place in Florida. Why did they do this? Oh because the park was poorly conceived and after years its up to snuff, so we are gonna rename it. It doesn't work very well.

[ah schucks]

Au contraire, mon cher. A park takes time and funding to reach its full potential. If the wizards of WDI started now, this could be finished in several stages over twenty years.

Or, if Tokyo Land wanted to invest, it could be done in five. Look at DisneySea.

If you suggest a 20 year plan, it might be feasible for the plan you laid out (but I have my doubts). Moderate remodels of pre-exsisting rides are far more plausable and realistic than moving some of the rides as you are so apt to suggest. New lands and new rides in Timon are also very conceivable. The complete PP removal I find very far fetched as do many subscribes to this thread.

Now, Epcot Center could drop the "Center" because it was essentially added to keep it separate from Walt's EPCOT, but Disney doesn't seem so worried about that any more, and really, I don't know anyone who ever actually said or wrote the "Center" part before it was dropped anyway. But DCA... can't really drop the California. It'd be a PR nightmare. The entire north side of the park is too specific to California for a retheme to be cost effective. And, minus California, you basically have Disney's Adventure...land. If people think it's hard enough getting people to shell out $50 to see all of California, imagine getting them to shell out $50 to see only one of the four lands already contained in Disneyland.

See this is a great argument. If they loose the strict interpertation on modern times it can work.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

OK, maybe the not greatest idea, but it's gotten my creative juices flowing!

Let's make a collective pact never to judge our own creative ideas before their time, eh? That is the path that leads to writer's block. In a hurky-jerky brainstorm, all thoughts are welcome because they lead to other thoughts and other people's thoughts. For instance, I wasn't totally solid about the Pier replacement, but it got you thinking. And I hadn't considered that the miner/cultural blend would go together.

Solo-instrument brain is never as interesting as brain orchestra.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Ha ha I should have said realistically what could we do that is logical and financially viable, my own fault I suppose.

Au contraire, mon cher. A park takes time and funding to reach its full potential. If the wizards of WDI started now, this could be finished in several stages over twenty years.

Or, if Tokyo Land wanted to invest, it could be done in five. Look at DisneySea.

[ModHatter]

No Corporate Weakness at Disney? That's debatable, little britches. I'll bet you'd find lotsa folks who'd beg to differ (including Roy E. Disney).

-=Dan=-

I think the difference is, especially where DCA is concerned, the Powers That Be have to my knowledge ever officially admitted that mistakes were made. The statements I always read have a very rah-rah, "It's a good park, and if people don't like it, it's THEIR shortcoming, not ours" quality. Which is foolish in one sense, because Disney's own info has shown that DCA is underperforming. But, in the larger sense, they are taking the stance Shucks is talking about, which is to keep up a strong front, and keep the public in general, and the shareholders specifically, from PERCEIVING weakness.

Now, Epcot Center could drop the "Center" because it was essentially added to keep it separate from Walt's EPCOT, but Disney doesn't seem so worried about that any more, and really, I don't know anyone who ever actually said or wrote the "Center" part before it was dropped anyway. But DCA... can't really drop the California. It'd be a PR nightmare. The entire north side of the park is too specific to California for a retheme to be cost effective. And, minus California, you basically have Disney's Adventure...land. If people think it's hard enough getting people to shell out $50 to see all of California, imagine getting them to shell out $50 to see only one of the four lands already contained in Disneyland.

While the strict modern slant of DCA is limited to a very specific period of time, the actual California theme is about as limited as Disneyland itself. The folks in charge just have to think outside the box a bit and come up with their equivalents to New Orleans Square and New Tomorrowland 67. It took Disneyland over a decade to really hit its stride. DCA can do the same if they just get some themepark enthusiasts with vision at the helm.

[Alan-A-Dale]

I think this shows corperate weakness, something Disney is not prown to. The symbol might be a mouse, but they ain't meek. I cannot feasibly conceive them running from there mistakes, what kind of symbol does that show to investors, we are going rehack a hack park? or we are improving a hack park?

No Corporate Weakness at Disney? That's debatable, little britches. I'll bet you'd find lotsa folks who'd beg to differ (including Roy E. Disney).

-=Dan=-

[chadb14]

it sounds like everyone has the same basic feeling, the pier is ok, but needs some improvement. lets face it no matter what we say here, the pier is what the pier is. the best thing we can do is deal with it and hope that they make some improvements in time.

[SilentBob66]

LSPoorEeyorick, I'm actually intrigued and inspired by your Option One ideas, particularly the Chinatown, Olvera Street, and CircleVision ones. Heck, maybe there'd be a way to even combine all of those with a Gold Rush one! The Chinese and Mexicans certainly were players on the stage during 1849, and CircleVision used as part of an E ticket ride is at least 2 decades overdue; have an E ticket simulator ride similar to Star Tours but with CircleVision, called "The Gold Rush" where you're in a runaway mine car (a la Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom) that careens wildly through stalactites and stalagmites in the Rainbow Caverns (bringing back that old Frontierland favorite and doing some quick education at 50 mph) and out into a bustling Forty Niner mining camp, past the Chinese railroad workers, laundry, and restaurant, past a Mexican encampment (called El Campo), all of which would be on the film but also in the park itself, and ending up plowing smack dab into the Grizzly River (but not in the rapids....that's for the existing ride)!

OK, maybe the not greatest idea, but it's gotten my creative juices flowing!

[ah schucks]

Ha ha I should have said realistically what could we do that is logical and financially viable, my own fault I suppose/

Sure. Aren't we all armchair Imagineers?

So. Two options.

Option One: Boss Iger says "no theme-changing." I sigh. I stretch out in my office with a pile of CA history books.

Now most of my posts I have suggest similar ideas, not so far fetched and costly but similar. Everyone should give up on the Screamin area of PP being removed because it has become a huge detail in the imagery of DCA, unlike Mullholland Maddness (a wretched excuse for a ride) and all the seaside travesties in the immediate area. The majority of the rest of what you suggested are great ideas. Some I'd like to see. Heck no are you taking my Muppets out though! I'll chain myself to that before letting that happen.

Option two: Boss Iger says "you're right. Theme is limited. Have at." Welcome to Disney's American Adventure. (I credit this concept to Morrigoon.)

A gutting of the park is not required. Use thirties-hollywood from option one.

Soarin' can stay, too. Maybe not in its present location. Grizzly River Rapids can stay if there's a wilderness-themed section (which there should be.) And maybe it should be a Soarin' Over America.

There should be basic American themes and historical events around which one can theme: the founding of the country and its leaders-- here's a great relocation for dearest displaced Abe. The creation of the automobile and its history could be a fun dark ride. The development of American music-- updating America Sings? With a rock diner next door?

Much more thought can be put into this, but I ought to mosey on my way. Paging Morrigoon. Where are you, Morrigoon?

I think this shows corperate weakness, something Disney is not prown to. The symbol might be a mouse, but they ain't meek. I cannot feasibly conceive them running from there mistakes, what kind of symbol does that show to investors, we are going rehack a hack park? or we are improving a hack park?

[LSPoorEeyorick]

It is here now, can you suggest improvements that could logically be completed? I am just curious if you have entertained strategies to get it out of the situation you describe above?

Sure. Aren't we all armchair Imagineers?

So. Two options.

Option One: Boss Iger says "no theme-changing." I sigh. I stretch out in my office with a pile of CA history books. I read everything I can get my hand on about vintage Hollywood, the gold rush of '49, earthquakes of history, the development of aviation, etc.

We soup up the Hollywood Pictures Backlot and turn it into a celebration of vintage Hollywood. Stick with a 1930s theme. Bring starlets and hopefuls and Chaplin impersonaters onto the streets. Keep Tower. Fill the Hyperion with a show based on the music of Disney, built around the rise of a Hollywood starlet (in the manner that Mama Mia uses Abba music.) Re-theme various fascades. Knock out MuppetVision and Playhouse Disney and fill out the area with a few D tickets. Consider tearing out Mulholland madness and rebuilding it here as a dark ride taking you through the filming of a classic movie (say, Mary Poppins.) From soup, like Disney at his story meetings, to nuts-- the film projected on a screen as you're leaving. I would consider a new version of the Great Movie Ride. CA is rich with film history. So is Disney. Bring out the old props. Put in a thirties-Hollywood table service restaurant with focus on glam and swank.

Re-approach Bug's Land as a celebration of flora and bug-fawna. You can keep the bugs if there is more edutainment implemented. What about a ride-through greenhouse ride, like "Listen to the Land," but hosted by the bugs? How about an organic restaurant featuring a menu of what's fresh at the time in CA? How about bug's eye view flying simulators, tied into a recycling/composting message?

Revive the Golden State area by adding more attractions that involve rugged nature. An E-ticket or D-Ticket themed to the gold rush could be exciting and educational at the same time. A study of earthquakes, done in a different way than Universal's, seems pertinent. The Bathrooms of San Francisco are a pitiful tribute. Ditch them and do something else with the space as themed to Golden State.

Condor Flats must be something other than concrete and warehouse. I'm certain you can maintain the screening rooms for Soarin' without the cheap-looking building. New fascade, please! What about an aviation museum of sorts with an aviator tourguide (not a "show me the blueprints" one, mind you!)

Rip out Paradise Pier. Wholly. Mulholland is nothing compared to the hilly roads of Frisco. Theme a roller-coaster to sights of Frisco. What about a Chinatown section with the Chinese retaurant Walt always wanted? How about an Olvera Street with strolling musicians and, hey, churros? Circlevision movies about different cultures?

I run out of ideas because I feel that the theme is limited. Which leads me to:

Option two: Boss Iger says "you're right. Theme is limited. Have at." Welcome to Disney's American Adventure. (I credit this concept to Morrigoon.)

A gutting of the park is not required. Use thirties-hollywood from option one.

Soarin' can stay, too. Maybe not in its present location. Grizzly River Rapids can stay if there's a wilderness-themed section (which there should be.) And maybe it should be a Soarin' Over America.

There should be basic American themes and historical events around which one can theme: the founding of the country and its leaders-- here's a great relocation for dearest displaced Abe. The creation of the automobile and its history could be a fun dark ride. The development of American music-- updating America Sings? With a rock diner next door?

Much more thought can be put into this, but I ought to mosey on my way. Paging Morrigoon. Where are you, Morrigoon?