Third Gate?

[DoppelV]

Okay, I know what the general response is going to be, but I just have to pose this question...does Disneyland truely need a third gate?

The way I see it, Disneyland is a treasure for three main kinds of people...the fanatics (true Disney fans), the passerbys (Side/Day Trippers), and the SoCals (The lucky ones in my book ). Now from a tourist standpoint, being from Minnesota, I have some experience with this, the addition of a third theme park would be redundant.

As much as people do not want to admit it, Anaheim is not Orlando, and unfortunately will never be Orlando. It just doesn't have the space or the virgin landscape. Now don't get me wrong, Disneyland is my absolute favorite of the Disney Parks, and for me, being able to visit there last year was like a trek to Mecca. But, face it, Anaheim lacks the openness, the space, the transportation, and basically the reputation an area needs to merit a full entertainment megaplex. People are skeptical about visiting the Southern California area (in particular, the LA area). Many people cannot afford multiple vacations and given a decision, will choose central Florida over Southern California.

Disneyland is a special place, and always will be. With that, it needs to be maintained and expanded to the best of the Walt Disney company's abilities. However, adding a third park at anytime would basically be adding more "entertainment clutter" to an area that just can't handle it. Disney needs to focus on expanding the sister parks in relation to their environment. Open up the surrounding areas as best as economy will allow. Save the undeveloped areas for hotels, waterparks, or other attractions that do not need lots of space. My biggest gripe about California Adventure was that it did not utilize the space it had, it was a very small park, and I honestly believe it does not merit a full day's admission. Disneyland can ill afford another such park. It needs to re-establish CA as a headliner, instead of a sideshow. The Disneyland Resort can by all means expand, but let the people enjoy the parks for what they are, instead of how many, quality over quantity.

Okay, let's see what you guys think, be gentle! :o

[Dan3]

uhhhhh did you see the pictures of that big chunk of land they got?... its bigger then disneyland.

[cellarhound]

As much as people do not want to admit it, Anaheim is not Orlando, and unfortunately will never be Orlando. It just doesn't have the space or the virgin landscape. Now don't get me wrong, Disneyland is my absolute favorite of the Disney Parks, and for me, being able to visit there last year was like a trek to Mecca. But, face it, Anaheim lacks the openness, the space, the transportation, and basically the reputation an area needs to merit a full entertainment megaplex. People are skeptical about visiting the Southern California area (in particular, the LA area). Many people cannot afford multiple vacations and given a decision, will choose central Florida over Southern California.

That is sort of why they need a third gate in Anaheim.

We have discussed this at lenght before... but the problem is this... If the theme parks resorts are focusing on Disney Vacation's, which have become so popular and profitable on the East Coast... That corporate knows when they look at DLR they see that the model can be improved... How DLR can grow is if they increase number of Hotel rooms... and keep customers at the resort longer "on property" so vacationers spend more money with disney than visiting the surrounding area.

Right now, DCA is such a pathetic second gate - I prefer to call it the parkhopper overflow gate - that if they place a third gate it would mean that they actually have 2 and 1/2 gates... In fact they should connect DL and DCA by monorail and keep the park hopper price and just be done with the idea that DCA is a second gate...

People have been using Knotts as a second gate for years... and Magic Mountain/Universal Studios to fill the gaps for weeklong stays. Why lose money... they are really coming to see DL....

It would be just as conveniant for people to stay in one place as to travel from park to park to park... And with what people save on travel time, it can be spent on DLR merchendise...

[ah schucks]

The notion of a 3rd gate, while near and dear to my imagination, is a messy notion feeled with logisitics that can't be fathomed yet. The DLR will never compare as a resort to Florida, it just can't. The WDR feeds into the cruiseline and has 4 gates and more hotels and has room for growth. DLR just doen't...

That doesn't mean it should be abandoned or relocated to a historical museum posistion. Disney will have to create new ways of approaching resort vacations in Southern California or produce more reason for local tourism. I was at one point strongly opposed to gate options outside of walking distance of the current two gates but recently I have begun to think that create "mini resorts" within reasonable distances of each other are not a bad thought.

Per example, I truly believe Disney should consider the sponsership and part ownership of the pre-exsistant Wild Animal Park, just an hour or so south of the current gate. The Wild Animal Park is already easily possed to become a fantastic west coast version of the Animal Kingdom in Florida and with some Disney magic it could be agreat gate option in a very reasonable and near future. Considering it is located near casinos and lots of open land, a mini-resort could be complete the West Coast experiance.

Other options were mentioned in another thread about Long Beach, once considered for another gate and previously invested with Disney money in the Spruce Goose/ Queen Mary location, it could yet become another gate for a "mini-resort." With the launch of the west coast version of the cruise line, creating a gate there or just a mini-resort seems like a reasonable opportunity for the house of mouse.

There could be other opportunities here for Disney, partnering with railroads to offer transportation to other gates. Creating a rental car division to provide more mobile transportation. Partnering with cities and resorts to create new entertainment options, like bringing Lego into the fold and offering vistors vacation packages to all of the gates.

This is merly a different way of looking at expanding gate options and presenting a new economic approach to the gate scenario. Of course someone with far more econmic experiance and knowledge will surely take my slice of imagination and hammer arguments into all the holes this has to offer.

[Giant Panda]

As much as people do not want to admit it, Anaheim is not Orlando, and unfortunately will never be Orlando. It just doesn't have the space or the virgin landscape.

First off, welcome to the boards .....

As I have posted before, it is only a matter of time really before the "virgin landscape" of which you speak will be perceived as having a real value. The destruction of the Everglades has had a profound effect on the environment.

The concept of redevelopment is not new, most mature cities have a redevelopment agency that promotes this type of activity. Revitalization of aging infrastructure and the infusion of economic vitality is worthy of promotion.

Barring some massive natural disaster or war, I don't see the population of California and the west dropping, so the potential customer base of the Anaheim resort is sure to grow.

Put it all together, and I see a third (or even fourth) gate as an inevitable necessity. And I don't have to fly to Florida in hurricane season to reap the benefit!

[JoeCool]

A 3rd gate is probably inevitable. Given the fact that Disney owns a large number of acres of land surrounding Disneyland and DCA. There is no need to rush to build a 3rd gate. DCA is less than 5 years old and still has teething problems to deal with. Disneyland's Tomorrowland needs a much needed update and facelift after the 1998 failure to update Tomorrowland. DCA still needs a few "E-Ticket" attractions to raise attendance. I dare say the Disney's new CEO Robert Iger may have plans for a third gate in Anaheim but probably only after Disneyland and DCA get their new attractions and refurbishments.

[desertdweller]

That is sort of why they need a third gate in Anaheim.

Right now, DCA is such a pathetic second gate - I prefer to call it the parkhopper overflow gate - that if they place a third gate it would mean that they actually have 2 and 1/2 gates... In fact they should connect DL and DCA by monorail and keep the park hopper price and just be done with the idea that DCA is a second gate...

That's a gigantic chunk of real estate that combines the old mobilehome park/cast parking with the farm behind it. They could do something fantastic with it for sure.

From the days of previews and the grand opening I've been saying that DCA simply can't do it on its own as a second gate. In the first weeks I told several Disney suits that they would be better off operating it as a supplemental add on to the DL ticket. For months they watched daily as hardly anyone showed up. It wasn't until much later that they began offering the park hopper. I totally agree with cellarhound and believe it would work so much better as another land to DL.

[DoppelV]

Allrighty, I just need to clairify I few things...
I have seen the diagrams and the satelite pictures of the Disneyland area, I know there is a lot of land left, I'm simply saying that closing that land off to all who don't pay an admission price may not be the way to go.

I realize that redevelopment is a trend, I should know, being an architecture student, and having worked on such projects all the time. Urban redevelopment is great, but it needs to be smart. I don't believe a full third (or fourth) theme park fulfills that requirement.

Even Walt himself did not feel all of Disney land should be used for theme parks. In his original scheme for Florida, he reserved only a small parcel in the north for park development. If Disney wants to increase tourism in their Anaheim property, they need to be working on a "full" vacation destination. Basically, people do not need to stay in Anaheim to enjoy Disneyland, and honestly there are people who go to LA not just to see Disneyland.

Last, this is simply an opinion. What I say and think is ultimately meaningless, I just wanted to propose a possiblity for the future.

[ah schucks]

Allrighty, I just need to clairify I few things...
I have seen the diagrams and the satelite pictures of the Disneyland area, I know there is a lot of land left, I'm simply saying that closing that land off to all who don't pay an admission price may not be the way to go.

I realize that redevelopment is a trend, I should know, being an architecture student, and having worked on such projects all the time. Urban redevelopment is great, but it needs to be smart. I don't believe a full third (or fourth) theme park fulfills that requirement.

Even Walt himself did not feel all of Disney land should be used for theme parks. In his original scheme for Florida, he reserved only a small parcel in the north for park development. If Disney wants to increase tourism in their Anaheim property, they need to be working on a "full" vacation destination. Basically, people do not need to stay in Anaheim to enjoy Disneyland, and honestly there are people who go to LA not just to see Disneyland.

Last, this is simply an opinion. What I say and think is ultimately meaningless, I just wanted to propose a possiblity for the future.

Just because I spent so much time developing this map in the first place and I want to use it as often as possible I will repost it.


As far as concepts check out these threads:

http://www.micechat.com/showthread.php?t=599

and

http://www.micechat.com/showthread.php?t=1925

and

http://www.micechat.com/showthread.php?t=745

The urban redevelopment of Anaheim extends beyond gates, there is a preposed GardenWalk co-owned by the city of Anaheim and a San Diego investment firm. Furthermore than just malls and hotels, Disney has made huge efforts in resorting medians, signs, cross walks to make the resort more inviting. Lastly Disney has a huge inceative in progress, cleaning up and retheming Harbor Blvd from the park south to the 22 freeway about 2 or 3 miles away. Old businesses, slums, abandoned buildings are being cleared and new jobs and new development is being created in was a rough neighborhood until a few years ago.

I agree with the argument that a 3rd gate will lend support to the second gate and I am of two minds if and when it should happen.
Option 1.) Start building now aim for a date to open between 2010 and 2015, take some pressure off of the ugly middle child DCA and let it blossom.
Option 2.) The baby park DCA gets rethemed and organized and generates more income to warrant a 3rd gate to open in 2013 to 2017.

This gate is happening, we should embrace it and make our voices heard so it doesn't repeat the mistakes of the past.

[desertdweller]

The City of Garden Grove has awakened in the past decade and taken enormous measures to clean up Harbor Boulevard as it heads to the 22 Freeway. I always felt sorry for tourists approaching DL from that direction.

[dshimel]

The way I see it, Disneyland is a treasure for three main kinds of people...the fanatics (true Disney fans), the passerbys (Side/Day Trippers), and the SoCals.

You nailed the target audience pretty well, I think.

When designing DCA, Disney saw 1 more group... The NorCals. Much of DCA's design, I think, was targeted at bringing more people down from the bay area.... But, why would you travel to DCA to see NorCal or taste wine when you live in NorCal... Flawed product I think.

But, lets focus back on your 3 groups...
1) The fanatics.... We're going to drive 12+ hours round-trip, spend money on hotels, and visit DL 10-12 days a year whether there is 1 park or 3.
3) The SoCals.... They're going to visit 2-3 (if non AP) or (8+ if AP) times a year whether there is 1 park or 3.


++++++++++++++++++++++++
Group 2, the passer-bys.... These are the people that are going to SoCal for a week-long vacation and spend 1 day at DL.... This IS the target niche of the resort expansion!!!!!

Add a second gate, and instead of $50, you get $100 or $150 out of them... Heck, they may even stay at your hotel.

Add a 3rd gate and you may get 3-4 days out of them..... Then, you make the price of a 1-week pass the same as a 4-day pass, and suddenly, instead of taking a "SoCal vacation" with 1 day at DL, they're taking a DLR vacation with 1-2 half days off at the beach or seeing Hollywood.

This is why DLR needs the 3rd gate!

And not a water park!

[ah schucks]

I think I just agreed with Dshimel. Wow. I am scared. Te he he just playing

[dshimel]

Basically, people do not need to stay in Anaheim to enjoy Disneyland, and honestly there are people who go to LA not just to see Disneyland.

In fact, right now, the vast majority of people going to LA are, in fact, NOT staying in Anahiem and NOT going just to see Disneyland....

And if Disney can change just 2 million of those people.... Change them from SoCal tourists that spend a day at Disneyland..... into people that do stay in Anaheim and do visit just to see Disneyland, then they'll make an extra

(does the math: 2 million people... average of 5 days each.... average $70 per person per day ) $700,000,000 million in revenue a year from the parks

and

(does the math.... 2 million people * 5 day stay / 3 average room occupancy = 3.3 million hotel room nights(about 11,000 rooms * 82% pccupancy * 365 days a year) sold at $100 each = $300 million in revenue.

That's an extra $1 billion a year in revenue!

And that would just be off an extra 10 million visits a year by these "passer-bys"... Add in the extra days and extra stays by the fanatics and SoCals and the passer-bys they were only able to convert from 1-day guests to 3-day guests!!!!

[DoppelV]

[QUOTE=dshimel]

When designing DCA, Disney saw 1 more group... The NorCals. Much of DCA's design, I think, was targeted at bringing more people down from the bay area.... But, why would you travel to DCA to see NorCal or taste wine when you live in NorCal... Flawed product I think.

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Group 2, the passer-bys.... These are the people that are going to SoCal for a week-long vacation and spend 1 day at DL.... This IS the target niche of the resort expansion!!!!!

Add a second gate, and instead of $50, you get $100 or $150 out of them... Heck, they may even stay at your hotel.

Add a 3rd gate and you may get 3-4 days out of them..... Then, you make the price of a 1-week pass the same as a 4-day pass, and suddenly, instead of taking a "SoCal vacation" with 1 day at DL, they're taking a DLR vacation with 1-2 half days off at the beach or seeing Hollywood.
[QUOTE]

You make a really good point here, and with this, I can bring up another necessity the DLR really needs...Value Resorts

In order to keep people in your resort, they need to be able to afford it. Maybe a quick renovation of one of the existing hotels around the property would work. I personally couldn't make enough in a year to afford to stay at the Disney hotels.

Finally, I will concede that Disney kind of needs a third gate, but not in the sense of a third theme park. They need to turn DCA into their "third gate" (in essence, make it a "new" theme park).
Before they do that, I can see adding a third park as working in one of two ways.
Either...
1. You get the perfect scenario, one-two days at Disneyland, one day at DCA, and one day at "third gate".
2. You get the more likely scenario, one-two days at Disneyland, one day half at DCA, the other half at "third gate".
This leaves a really strong necessity. Whatever park they might build, really needs to be worth seeing and really needs to merit a full day's admission.

Maybe a third park would work. I honestly would like to see one work, someday I hope to work for WDI, and a new opportunity to create is always great. I just think that first on the priority would be establishing the DLR as a resort, before moving on to another park.

Disneyland held it's own for many years. To be consevative, I would put the bare minimum year before another park at 2020, the sixty-fifth birthday of Disneyland. Before continuing the resort, they must establish the resort, make people associate the word Disneyland with two theme parks and hotels, not just "that park in California", as many people up here in the north ignorantly do.

[ah schucks]

You make a really good point here, and with this, I can bring up another necessity the DLR really needs...Value Resorts

In order to keep people in your resort, they need to be able to afford it. Maybe a quick renovation of one of the existing hotels around the property would work. I personally couldn't make enough in a year to afford to stay at the Disney hotels.

Yes no one will argue with you there. Point in fact, buying some of the local hotels and doing Disney conversions is a great way to reach that goal

Finally, I will concede that Disney kind of needs a third gate, but not in the sense of a third theme park. They need to turn DCA into their "third gate" (in essence, make it a "new" theme park).
Before they do that, I can see adding a third park as working in one of two ways.
Either...
1. You get the perfect scenario, one-two days at Disneyland, one day at DCA, and one day at "third gate".

This is what the company would like to see.

2. You get the more likely scenario, one-two days at Disneyland, one day half at DCA, the other half at "third gate".

This assumes they do nothing else to improve DCA and they half a third gate. With the ambitious agenda CM Matt is producing I find it hard to believe that DCA will not be renovated shortly in some aspect. Also extra revenue from the massive onslaught of the 50th could spill over into the cup of DCA even as far as the cup of the 3rd gate. So this scenario is not necessarily more likely.

This leaves a really strong necessity. Whatever park they might build, really needs to be worth seeing and really needs to merit a full day's admission.

Maybe a third park would work. I honestly would like to see one work, someday I hope to work for WDI, and a new opportunity to create is always great. I just think that first on the priority would be establishing the DLR as a resort, before moving on to another park.

I think we will see something incredible for that 3rd gate, because they have forced themselves into a corner by using DCA as a hybrid in many aspects of both Epcot and MGM, so this 3rd gate can almost not be a clone or it will look like the long lost further deficient twin of DCA.

Disneyland held it's own for many years. To be conservative, I would put the bare minimum year before another park at 2020, the sixty-fifth birthday of Disneyland. Before continuing the resort, they must establish the resort, make people associate the word Disneyland with two theme parks and hotels, not just "that park in California", as many people up here in the north ignorantly do.

They don't have 15 years to wait to execute this, land will become more expensive. The time to strike is soon. It might might might open that late, but construction and design must begin very soon actually to execute a superior park to DCA and a worthy accomplice to Disneyland.

[dshimel]

You make a really good point here, and with this, I can bring up another necessity the DLR really needs...Value Resorts

I'm sure Disney is WELLL aware of their need to add a lot more hotel rooms. Right now they are sitting at 2,000 rooms and even with none of them officially "value" rooms, they're running 87% full on an annual basis... And those aren't heqavily discounted rooms since it seems I can never get a good AP discount room rate no matter what time of year I want to visit!!!!

That means they're turning away a lot of people in the peak season....

Finally, I will concede that Disney kind of needs a third gate, but not in the sense of a third theme park. They need to turn DCA into their "third gate" (in essence, make it a "new" theme park).

Don't get me wrong.... I'm the leader of the pack in just about any "DCA SUCKS" thread..... But I don't see it getting the extreme make-over it needs until the real 3rd gate is up.

My guess is that DCA will get 2 more e-tickets in Timon over the next 5 years, then work will start for really real on the 3rd gate.... with a 2012 or so opening.

Disneyland held it's own for many years.

But it reached saturation.... The park has a max capacity of about 12-13 million visitors a year. When they'd add a new E-Ticket, attendance would jump... but the park would be so crowded that people would have a bad time, and within a couple years the attendance would fall right back to 13 million a year.

Law of diminishing returns.... It became harder and harder to attract more people to the park.

Thus, the need to expand OUTSIDE the front gate of DL.... New park, where you can attract more guests without putting more burden on Main Street and Fantasmic and Fireworks and the existing E-Tickets and existing water/sewer, etc....

And, as long as all the rides are in 1 park, people will think of it as 1 day. Whether it is 6 E-Tickets or 10 E-Tickets or 14 E-Tickets, people will think of spending 1 day of their SoCal vacation in Disneyland.

That 2nd, then 3rd "park" really makes them think.... I need 2, 3, 4 days to see all of this!

[socal05]

When I saw that map of the "possible" 3rd gate property, I thought maybe they could think of a cool "hidden, lost or forbidden" land. You could theme the heck out of it, and find a creative way to get DCA/DL people there. Maybe even have another hotel in the park. My mind goes wild with it...

[Giant Panda]

dshimel,

I think somebody has hacked their way into your MiceChat account. Either that, or maybe I'm just having a hard time understanding your "support" of a third gate when you were just arguing on another thread that the company should (that is, would make good business sense) dump the parks as they are a vrtual "black hole" (my quotes, not yours) of depreciation (among other things)....... :confused:

[dshimel]

I think they'll eventually reroute Harbor and Katella out and around the 3rd gate site to reconnect it to the main property without the major roads down the middle.

My guess for the 3rd gate... a cross between Epcot and Disney Seas.

[ah schucks]

I think they'll eventually reroute Harbor and Katella out and around the 3rd gate site to reconnect it to the main property without the major roads down the middle.

My guess for the 3rd gate... a cross between Epcot and Disney Seas.

I really like Mod Hotter's suggestion of creating an Epcot world scenario based on Myths and Legends, borrow from the Disney Seas and Epcot to create a less '"reality based" theme park and invest people into the myths and legends that we love.