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  • #21
    Originally posted by ModHatter
    Well, just to recap: Dumbo, Casey Jr., Storybookland, Motor Boat Cruise, it's a small world... not European. If this 1980s European makeover for the southern half of Fantasyland is too limiting, go back to the original... It seamlessly incorporated modern America, including Fantasyland Autopia and Midget Autopia, Canal Boats of the World, and the Mickey Mouse Club Theater too.

    Walt Disney didn't have dark rides outside of Fantasyland on opening day, and neither New Orleans Square nor the World on the Move Tomorrowland included animated movies brought to life. So, maybe Walt didn't SAY that was his intent, but his actions certainly speak volumes.

    Had Star Tours been built in a different building, I think the destruction of Tomorrowland that began in 1988 with the closure of America Sings would have been slowed down or completely halted. Instead of the dreadful Tomorrowland 98, with one movie being replaced with a worse one, one show/ride being replaced with a restaurant, one empty show building becoming an unenjoyable exhibit, and two attractions morphing to become the ill-fated RocketRods. ATIS wasn't If You Had Wings. It was good. If it had been left in its original building, it would have benefitted from having Star Tours in the same land, and kept a large audience -- something a show has a much harder time doing. In short, keeping ATIS and creating Star Tours too might have made the difference between keeping the best land in Disneyland the best, and what we had under the last reign of terror.

    well technicaly Mansion and Pirates are darkrides just more impressive ones, I'm going to say that there wasn't much Walt COULD do at the time and there is NO way of knowing what he would do or say now, there isn't anny conclusive proof that fantasyland was THE toon land only that it was a fairytaleish land that walt had set up with a very vague theme (though driving is a fantasy for littler kids that are too small to drive the Autopia and can't see driving as their future )

    I don't think the fantasyland remake should be rolled back, the toons just naturaly fit in some lands other then were they are it's just about how they're presented that can get annoying


    as far as Tomorrowland goes I think HISTA was much better then EO at least as far as being dated goes (people remeber EO as more then it was and honestly people EXPECT modern 3D movies to jump out at them more with air guns and the like) what kind of crowds did ATIS have near the end? would it really have been that popular

    either way I think Tomorrowland is getting much more balanced at this point (I do agree that Circlevision or Mission to Mars would've been better at least back in the day, I mean did Mission to Mars even have anything going on in it when Star Tours opend?)
    "We all have sparks, imagination! it's how our minds... create creations!"

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    • #22
      Star Tours.....

      If only Lucas and Disney can peacefully live in harmony for once and UPDATE THE RIDE. Yeah, that would make me and my nerdy boyfriend happy.
      Well, light travels from the sun. Then, bounces off of our planet, and back into our eyes so we can perceive color. My body can intercept that light and dance around on it!


      -- robotarmada.net --

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      • #23
        Originally posted by Jspider
        well technicaly Mansion and Pirates are darkrides just more impressive ones,
        But you see, that has nothing to do with what I said:
        Walt Disney didn't have dark rides outside of Fantasyland on opening day, and neither New Orleans Square nor the World on the Move Tomorrowland included animated movies brought to life.


        Originally posted by Jspider
        I'm going to say that there wasn't much Walt COULD do at the time and there is NO way of knowing what he would do or say now, there isn't anny conclusive proof that fantasyland was THE toon land only that it was a fairytaleish land that walt had set up with a very vague theme (though driving is a fantasy for littler kids that are too small to drive the Autopia and can't see driving as their future )
        Hmmm... well, a little research shows he could have built Fantasia, Cinderella, Lady and the Tramp, 101 Dalmatians, and Jungle Book, so there was in fact a LOT he could do, IF that was his intent. But, in two MAJOR projects he took on within the park, he chose not to. Fantasyland was, in fact, the only land with toon rides in Walt's time. That's irrefutable fact, thus Todd was making a very logical statement.

        Originally posted by Jspider
        I don't think the fantasyland remake should be rolled back, the toons just naturaly fit in some lands other then were they are it's just about how they're presented that can get annoying

        as far as Tomorrowland goes I think HISTA was much better then EO at least as far as being dated goes (people remeber EO as more then it was and honestly people EXPECT modern 3D movies to jump out at them more with air guns and the like) what kind of crowds did ATIS have near the end? would it really have been that popular

        either way I think Tomorrowland is getting much more balanced at this point (I do agree that Circlevision or Mission to Mars would've been better at least back in the day, I mean did Mission to Mars even have anything going on in it when Star Tours opend?)
        If you look at the rides getting rave reviews lately, it's certainly not Disneyland's Pooh. It's Soarin', it's Test Track, it's Mission:Space, it's JTTCOTE... Nothing to do with Disney animation, or even Pixar animation.

        Tomorrowland was perfectly balanced way back when. It's only now that Tomorrowland Autopia swallowed up Fantasyland Autopia, Nemo is invading, and the poor Rocket Jets got thrown out to the curb by the hub that the land is getting lopsided.

        Buzz is a step in the right direction, but it's a step that would have been largely unnecessary if Star Tours had found a different home.
        See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
        78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

        "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

        "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

        -- Walt Disney

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        • #24
          This one's hard for me. I love both of these attractions. I'd like to see a newer version of Star Tours, though, and I think the basic idea of ATIS is valid and worthy of a remake with newer technology.
          My fondest memory of Walt Disney was the day Disneyland opened....I was standing next to him - I was 12 years old - he was looking at the gate where people were coming through, he had his hands behind his back, he had a grin from ear to ear, but you could see the lump in his throat and the tear coming down his cheek because his dream had been realized. -- Mouseketeer Sharon Baird, "Mouseke-Memories", Walt Disney Treasures: The Mickey Mouse Club

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          • #25
            Originally posted by gibbage
            Thats the thing. They only remember the good things. Not the fact that it was slow or boring in todays standards.

            I say, along with the people mover, good riddens. If we dont progress, riding a pack mule would still be an E-ticket.
            I'd like to gently suggest that a ride's speed has less to do with its entertainment value than one might think, that the bored are often responsible for their own boredom, and that measuring accomplishments by today's standards is only a sure-fire way to create something that will feel dated tomorrow.

            Progress is a worthless ideal in and of itself; it derives its value from the fixed point of reference toward which one is progressing. Without the point of reference, progress isn't progress at all--it's just change for the sake of change. Building faster rides or "spicing up" Florida's Tiki Room (for example) with "edgier" humor just because someone has decided that these things are expected by today's standards is a strategy that will in the end result in mediocrity and death.

            To take the high road: to discern what the public needs, not what it thinks it wants; to determine what challenges to its preconceptions the public will accept and in what respects it will demand to stay on familiar ground--this, I think, is exactly what Walt was about, and what the Disney company might still be about were it run by bold and insightful leaders.

            I don't mean to suggest that excellent things don't age (though certainly they age more slowly than mediocre things) or that no such thing as progress exists. I simply submit that excellence is the only goal really worth aiming for. Rides built to be excellent will sometimes go fast. Rides built to be fast on account of "today's standards" will almost without exception fail to be excellent.

            ATIS was built to be excellent. Its effects were eventually obsoleted by technological advances, but the substance of the attraction--the concept and the writing--have hardly aged a day. The Peoplemover was a concept so basic it couldn't age. (I'm not referring, of course, to its soundtrack. Though I personally still love that because of its age.) The Pack Mules? Well, they certainly presented some logistical problems. I'd still ride 'em, though--and I doubt I'd be alone.

            Don't misunderstand: I'm not arguing for the immediate return of everything that's ever been torn out of Disneyland. I'm suggesting only that "If we dont progress, riding a pack mule would still be an E-ticket" makes a weak case for change.
            Eric Dean

            [Countdown=&day=12&month=5&year=2005&hour=12&min=20 &sec=55]Getting off this dead volcano and back to California in:[/countdown]

            "Welcome aboard, friends. This is Captain Collins. Now, first let me assure you that TWA has taken every precaution for your safety during this flight. We're proud of our safety record, and aside from a few brief moments of weightlessness, you'll suffer no discomfort in outer space."
            --from Rocket to the Moon

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            • #26
              I must say I do enjoy Star Tours even though I have seen it so many times. Although it is "warn out", it is still cute and makes me laugh and smile as I can now quote the lines on my first flight of my vacation.

              But then I again I was born in 1986 and that was when ATIS closed so I only know Star Tours. I <3 R2D2.

              I must also add that as I turn 19, Star Tours does also. This means it is almost 20 years old. Disneyland is turning 50 years old. Just think of how long that attraction has really been there and how it has become a part of Disneyland in its own way.
              Last edited by BigPigletFan; 04-10-2005, 08:40 PM.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by Eric Dean
                ATIS was built to be excellent. Its effects were eventually obsoleted by technological advances, but the substance of the attraction--the concept and the writing--have hardly aged a day. The Peoplemover was a concept so basic it couldn't age. (I'm not referring, of course, to its soundtrack. Though I personally still love that because of its age.) The Pack Mules? Well, they certainly presented some logistical problems. I'd still ride 'em, though--and I doubt I'd be alone.

                Yes, yes exactly. Okay, I'd probably never be allowed on a pack mule, and that's A-OK with me, but the idea is right on. Let's face it. HMH keeps a classic ride reinventing itself, and it will always get new effects when it needs a little more oomph. And look at the way Matterhorn transformed since its first day. Even DRR has gotten upgrades... In 1977, when Monsanto stopped sponsoring the ride, Disney should have taken a hands-on approach to reImagineering different show scenes so that new technology and effects could be added as needed. It's not like Mission to Mars, which itself was a replacement for a somewhat obsolete Moon mission, and which became obsolete when rockets were abandoned in favor of shuttles. ATIS itself isn't outdated. And with the human genome project it's as relevant as ever, maybe even moreso. It's just the scene technology that could use updating. But as a kid, I would have stood in line for an hour just to watch the Microscope shrink people down, because the effect was so convincing. And it still would be for the kids of this generation.
                See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
                78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

                "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

                "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

                -- Walt Disney

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by BigPigletFan
                  IBut then I again I was born in 1986 and that was when ATIS closed ...
                  It's posts like this that make me start looking at sites like lifealert.com



                  I still remember the day a friend from high school breaking the news that ATIS had been closed.
                  "The old man's gonna knock on the sky. Listen to the sound."

                  AP'er since 2004. Yup.....I'm one of THEM.

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                  • #29
                    Disneyland isn't about rides, it's the magic. It's what other parks will never get!
                    sigpic

                    This has been a Filmways presentation dahling.

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                    • #30
                      >>Disneyland isn't about rides, it's the magic. It's what other parks will never get!<<

                      Adventure thru Inner Space WAS part of that magic...

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by ModHatter
                        But you see, that has nothing to do with what I said:
                        Walt Disney didn't have dark rides outside of Fantasyland on opening day, and neither New Orleans Square nor the World on the Move Tomorrowland included animated movies brought to life.




                        Hmmm... well, a little research shows he could have built Fantasia, Cinderella, Lady and the Tramp, 101 Dalmatians, and Jungle Book, so there was in fact a LOT he could do, IF that was his intent. But, in two MAJOR projects he took on within the park, he chose not to. Fantasyland was, in fact, the only land with toon rides in Walt's time. That's irrefutable fact, thus Todd was making a very logical statement.



                        If you look at the rides getting rave reviews lately, it's certainly not Disneyland's Pooh. It's Soarin', it's Test Track, it's Mission:Space, it's JTTCOTE... Nothing to do with Disney animation, or even Pixar animation.

                        Tomorrowland was perfectly balanced way back when. It's only now that Tomorrowland Autopia swallowed up Fantasyland Autopia, Nemo is invading, and the poor Rocket Jets got thrown out to the curb by the hub that the land is getting lopsided.

                        Buzz is a step in the right direction, but it's a step that would have been largely unnecessary if Star Tours had found a different home.
                        I can still dissagree, who's to say that those films would have made good rides at all?

                        it is true that after Disneyland was built Walt was interested in building different things but that doesn't say everything for how Walt would have reacted to changing needs downt he line


                        and it's interesting that you mentioned Pooh when you speak of rides getting rave reviews last time I checked Pooh in TDL is getting TONS of rave reviews. Roger Rabbit is still very popular with many people inculding teens dispite the fact that almost every other ride containing static sets has been looked down on for this age group, but the combination of new ride vehicals plus good writing really sells Roger Rabbit Pooh in TDL is good because it takes a character which to me is very boring and full of yawns and turns it into an exciting adventure. I would also say that this is why Splash Mountain is so great and not just because people have never seen these characters much before but because the design is great and the writing and style is good and "I" am the star.

                        Toons arn't limiting if you don't use them as an excuse to not do a good job (which is arguably what Disney is doing with Toons in america, they're taking the assumption that people will love a ride because of the toons and that will make them overlook every other flaw in the ride)
                        "We all have sparks, imagination! it's how our minds... create creations!"

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          They need to update Star Tours with the technology in Tokyo's Stormrider. It could be easy to do...with a little creative imagineering. They'd have to demolish the four simulators they have now, and build three larger, newer ones. Probably remove a lot of the loading ramp, add a new film, and there you go....a totally different ride.

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                          • #33
                            Originally posted by Jspider
                            I can still dissagree, who's to say that those films would have made good rides at all?

                            it is true that after Disneyland was built Walt was interested in building different things but that doesn't say everything for how Walt would have reacted to changing needs downt he line


                            and it's interesting that you mentioned Pooh when you speak of rides getting rave reviews last time I checked Pooh in TDL is getting TONS of rave reviews. Roger Rabbit is still very popular with many people inculding teens dispite the fact that almost every other ride containing static sets has been looked down on for this age group, but the combination of new ride vehicals plus good writing really sells Roger Rabbit Pooh in TDL is good because it takes a character which to me is very boring and full of yawns and turns it into an exciting adventure. I would also say that this is why Splash Mountain is so great and not just because people have never seen these characters much before but because the design is great and the writing and style is good and "I" am the star.

                            Toons arn't limiting if you don't use them as an excuse to not do a good job (which is arguably what Disney is doing with Toons in america, they're taking the assumption that people will love a ride because of the toons and that will make them overlook every other flaw in the ride)
                            We, my last thoughts on this radical drift off topic... You said a poster couldn't make a claim that Walt's intent was that animated characters would only be brought to life in rides in Fantasyland. Yes, you can DISAGREE with the poster's opinion, but the poster had every right to make such a claim, and the claim is in fact borne out by more than a decade of Imagineering under Walt, and by many animated films that Walt could have turned into rides outside of Fantasyland in his lifetime if it was not Walt's intent to only have them in Fantasyland. More than a dozen new rides outside Fantasy and were buit or greenit during Wat's time, and not a singe one featured animation characters. (Just a side note, during Walt's lifetime, four non-European rides were added to the three that existed there in 1955.)

                            Saying that Fantasia, Cinderella, Lady and the Tramp, 101 Dalmatians, and Jungle Book couldn't've made great rides is not really the point. If Toad made a good ride, any of the other films could have made a good ride. Heck, Jungle Book was already in development when Jungle Cruise was being expanded...

                            As for Pooh... Yes, I mentioned Disneyland's Pooh, and how it is NOT receiving rave reviews. TDL's is getting rave reviews... but with the same characters? Logically, that means that the ride is getting raves because of what is different from ours (vehicles etc) rather than what is the same (characters).

                            If you can't make a good ride from a certain film property, don't make the ride. If you can make a good ride from a certain film property, odds are you can make the same ride as good or better without the film property, so why not create something new like they did in NOS?
                            See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
                            78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

                            "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

                            "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

                            -- Walt Disney

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by ModHatter
                              We, my last thoughts on this radical drift off topic... You said a poster couldn't make a claim that Walt's intent was that animated characters would only be brought to life in rides in Fantasyland. Yes, you can DISAGREE with the poster's opinion, but the poster had every right to make such a claim, and the claim is in fact borne out by more than a decade of Imagineering under Walt, and by many animated films that Walt could have turned into rides outside of Fantasyland in his lifetime if it was not Walt's intent to only have them in Fantasyland. More than a dozen new rides outside Fantasy and were buit or greenit during Wat's time, and not a singe one featured animation characters. (Just a side note, during Walt's lifetime, four non-European rides were added to the three that existed there in 1955.)

                              Saying that Fantasia, Cinderella, Lady and the Tramp, 101 Dalmatians, and Jungle Book couldn't've made great rides is not really the point. If Toad made a good ride, any of the other films could have made a good ride. Heck, Jungle Book was already in development when Jungle Cruise was being expanded...

                              As for Pooh... Yes, I mentioned Disneyland's Pooh, and how it is NOT receiving rave reviews. TDL's is getting rave reviews... but with the same characters? Logically, that means that the ride is getting raves because of what is different from ours (vehicles etc) rather than what is the same (characters).

                              If you can't make a good ride from a certain film property, don't make the ride. If you can make a good ride from a certain film property, odds are you can make the same ride as good or better without the film property, so why not create something new like they did in NOS?

                              ok here's the way I look at it with Walt. While I would say that you can't prove that Walt WOULDN'T have added characters to other areas of the park I WOULD say that for the most part Walt was not into the process of needlessly throwing characters at every little thing (if you know what I mean)

                              yes there were other movies that Walt could've done but there were also plenty of generalized themes that hadn't been done back then. Walt didn't seem to "needlesly" add toons

                              I do however feel that many toons could have a good place and many do well outside of fantasyland. Others are obviously forced (take Tarzan as an example of a needlessly added Toon, Stitch Escape would be an example of what I'd call bad writing for a ride as Stitch takes emphasis in the ride and becomes it's "star" suddenly we're not the Stars the way Walt wanted, instead Stich makes guests become secondary characters that Stitch can throw burp gags at)


                              and yes that's kinda my point with the Pooh ride, they made good use of the characters and used new ideas

                              I don't think they need to avoid characters like the plague and I don't think that they shouldn't do origional concepts. I think there is an expectation for them to do both and they SHOULD do both

                              I'm just saying there's nothing wrong with characters outside of fantasyland, it's perfectly fitting with the feel of the park. What IS wrong is when Disney feels the need to force a character theme on a ride to make it sell or when they update it, characters don't equal timeless. Timeless is when you tell a good story and give someone an unforgetable experience. Characters can be used for this, themes can be used for this and their effectivness ranges in our ability to relate ourselves to these things. However the characters in the end are not going to be what sells the ride it has to be a good ride, just like a celebrity can't get off with a bad movie just because of sheer name/recognition


                              ultimatly the concept that I think works best for Disney is when they make YOU the star


                              of course now we're really off topic so I'm going to applogize
                              "We all have sparks, imagination! it's how our minds... create creations!"

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                              • #35
                                Originally posted by Evan-500
                                I'd say star tours, just a few updates and it would be better
                                I say the same thing.

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                                • #36
                                  I'd choose ATIS. Call me a clown.

                                  I never got queasy on ATIS.

                                  Seems to me the story could have been adapted to other "micro adventures" than just going through a snowflake, and could have thus been kept interesting.

                                  Not that Star Tours is bad or anything... but I could ride ATIS repeatedly and still enjoy it, whereas a little ST goes a long ways.
                                  "Say, uh, ever hear of the devil's paint pots? Real mystery of the desert. Bubblin' pots of mud in all kinds of colors."

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                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by NWRREngineer
                                    I'd choose ATIS. Call me a clown.
                                    [Joe Pesci mode] You're a clown, you're here to amuse us.[/Joe Pesci mode]
                                    My fondest memory of Walt Disney was the day Disneyland opened....I was standing next to him - I was 12 years old - he was looking at the gate where people were coming through, he had his hands behind his back, he had a grin from ear to ear, but you could see the lump in his throat and the tear coming down his cheek because his dream had been realized. -- Mouseketeer Sharon Baird, "Mouseke-Memories", Walt Disney Treasures: The Mickey Mouse Club

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Adventures Through Inner Space was a great ride but so is Star Tours. I still enjoy riding
                                      Star Tours from time to time and just wish that they would change the destination (movie).
                                      Plague Of Vampires | A Novel by Eric and Elizabeth Gerds:

                                      Buy Now at Amazon

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                                      • #39
                                        Let's all sing: "Be a clown, be a clown... all the world loves a clown..."

                                        Miracles from molecules are happening every day!

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                                        • #40
                                          Originally posted by NWRREngineer
                                          I'd choose ATIS. Call me a clown.

                                          I never got queasy on ATIS.

                                          Seems to me the story could have been adapted to other "micro adventures" than just going through a snowflake, and could have thus been kept interesting.

                                          Not that Star Tours is bad or anything... but I could ride ATIS repeatedly and still enjoy it, whereas a little ST goes a long ways.
                                          Well, that's one thing I think people are forgetting. Star Tours isn't even 20 years old yet, but it is easily as outdated as ATIS supposedly was when it closed. It hasn't held up well at ALL. Just a walk to the East Side will take you to that other motion simulator, the one where you actually take RANDOM simulations, through an actual 3-D environment... compared to Indy, Star Tours is totally obsolete.

                                          The key difference between that and ATIS? Disney owns all the rights to ATIS, and could have updated it at will. As we know, Star Tours is sort of frozen in time (not a very Tomorrowland thing to be frozen in time, btw) because George Lucas has such a large say in the goings on of the attraction.

                                          Like many things from the Eisner era, Star Tours was created with a very short-term mentality, including its choice of location. And that lack of long-term planning has really caught up with it.
                                          See, George Lucas? I'm not the only one! [<-- i.e. this is not my site]
                                          78 Reasons To Hate Star Wars Episode 1

                                          "There are fashions in reading, even in thinking. You don't have to follow them unless you want to."

                                          "A lot of young people think the future is closed to them, that everything has been done. This is not so. There are still plenty of avenues to be explored."

                                          -- Walt Disney

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