Some thoughts...please read

[Kevie]

This thread might seem pretty "typical" or boring, but I started it because it's a deep concern of mine.

In both WDW (specificially Magic Kingdom, but for the rest of the post I'll just call it WDW) and DL, Tomorrowland is hands down my favorite part of the park.

Now, in '94, WDW updated their Tomorrowland very succesfully, and tried to be consistent. In '98 Disneyland "failed" everyone said.

But if we really think about it, The '98 DL Tomorrowland was not a failure. It's just that hearing about the new paint job, and budget cuts, gave us a massively negative mindset. So without truly looking at the '98 Tomorrowland, we decided it must be horrible. And ever since, Tomorrowland at Disneyland has been exageratted as being a ghosttown. True, it doesnt have much in the way of rides, but heck, neither does Critter Country or Frontierland.

Now on to the point. Maybe we should have appreciated the 98 Tomorrowland more--because I think within 20 years, Tomorrowland at both DL and WDW will be completely invalid.

Look at the rumored 2008 addition to WDW's Tomorrowland, replacing the Timekeeper (or perhaps the Carousel of Progress). It's a Toy Story alien themed Flying Saucer ride.

Now, I know that Disneyland once had Flying Saucers, but it doesn't seem like a good idea for any Disney park. They can be so much more creative then elaborate bumper cars, and we all know it. Wasting valuable space on it is a bad idea.

And look at what recently opened in WDW and DL Tomorrowlands: Stitch's Great Escape (WDW), Buzz Lightyear (DL, they have it at WDW too), and coming soon: Nemo (DL).

All these cartoons have a slightly futuristic edge, but are not anywhere near being futuristic. They don't depict the future. Face it, we probably won't be zapping aliens, or chasing a mischevious one named Stitch, or discovering the world of an animated fish, in the future. I think that if the name is Tomorrowland, it should be a portrayal of what the future would be like in more realistic terms.

I completely understand that doing the serious, straightfoward look at the future is not good, as it becomes dated quickly. And by the 1990's, Disneyland's Tomorrowland did seem very dated (as did WDW's before their upgrades).

But cartoons are really just exaserbating the problem. Of course, it'll be POPULAR, but let's loook past that and ask ourselves: Will it be RELEVANT?

[JiminyCricketFan]

Too many cartoons!

I agree that these cartoon rides do not relate to the theme of the future. The thinking now is that unless we connect a new ride to a recent movie we will not have an audience. Unfortunately, the only new movies that even vaguely relate to the future is Toy Story and the Incredibles. It is the stupid Synergy theory. Everything has to relate to everything else. It stifles originality and to some degree creativity. Some attractions connected to a movie is OK, but to require that everything new relate to a current movie is too much.

But I have to say that I disagree that I have to rejoice with the 1998 refurb of Tomorrowland just because it did not include all these cartoons. It is like saying I have to pick the lessor of two evils. DL's 1998 refurb was to make a Jules Verne fantasy into Tomorrowland. I do not see that as much of an improvement! I don't believe it is either or question. New ideas ARE out there that can bring magic back to both Tomorrowlands. It just takes the will to do it. Until that time, I will keep the hope alive!! :love: :love:

[Kevie]

Okay--TL 1998 was no masterpiece. But at least the land got a nice shot in the arm, which we were all wanting in the 90's, im sure!

[DifrntDrmr]

I think that if the Rocket Rods has succeeded, the 98 version might be viewed a little differently. They added motion, sound and excitement to the area that is now sorely missed. I haven't been to DL this year, but I think Buzz fixes a big problem of not having an attraction where Circlevision used to be. Now if only they would replace Mission To Mars!

Hopefully, Tomorrowland will continue to evolve as time goes on. We shouldn't be able to predict where it will be in 20 years! Eventually, HISTA and Star Tours will have to evolve or be replaced. Who know what will replace them? I just hope they don't end up sitting vacant!

[Kevie]

This is a bit off topic (just barely) but why is HISTA so loathed now? It is a great show. It is dated and needs to be replaced but why does everyone hate it so much? Back in its day (1998) it was popular.

[DifrntDrmr]

I like it too. It just isn't the type of attraction that stays forever like Space Mountain or the Mattahorn. Also, I think Universal's Terminator sort of dates the technology. Eventually, something will have to replace it.

[dshimel]

Now, in '94, WDW updated their Tomorrowland very succesfully

Say what? They added Timekeeper and Alien Encounter. While not cartoon rides, they still weren't really "a great big beautiful tomorrow" type things.

AND, neithr attraction was very popular AND Alien Encounter had to be redone in less than a decade AND Timekeeper is down to operating seasonally.

THIS is HIGHLY unsucessful.

The only way it could be worse is if they'd had to shut down the new rides within a matter of a year or two.... Which brings us to...

In '98 Disneyland "failed" everyone said.

$50-75 million was spent on Rocket Rods, and it had horrid capacity and only ran a couple of summers.

Comic waves didn't live much longer.

The Radio Disney booth isn't even used anymore.

Innoventions isn't so much an attraction as a chance to sell product placements.

That leaves HISTA, a WDW transplant that runs 10-20% capacity most days, and Astro Orbitor, as the only TL '98 attractions still operating.

Even the paint had to be redone.

$200 million for a 3D movie transplant and a spinner...... There is a HUGE reason everyone said it failed..... Because it was a horrid waste of money that left the land in worse shape then it started.

But if we really think about it, The '98 DL Tomorrowland was not a failure.

Oh my gawd.... that made me laugh so hard my cheaks hurt!!!!

And look at what recently opened in WDW and DL Tomorrowlands: Stitch's Great Escape (WDW), Buzz Lightyear (DL, they have it at WDW too), and coming soon: Nemo (DL).

All these cartoons have a slightly futuristic edge, but are not anywhere near being futuristic. They don't depict the future. Face it, we probably won't be zapping aliens, or chasing a mischevious one named Stitch, or discovering the world of an animated fish, in the future. I think that if the name is Tomorrowland, it should be a portrayal of what the future would be like in more realistic terms.

I completely understand that doing the serious, straightfoward look at the future is not good, as it becomes dated quickly. And by the 1990's, Disneyland's Tomorrowland did seem very dated (as did WDW's before their upgrades).

But cartoons are really just exaserbating the problem. Of course, it'll be POPULAR, but let's loook past that and ask ourselves: Will it be RELEVANT?

Let's..... Let's take a look at how many cartoon based attractions in Disneyland have been closed over the last 50 years, shall we.... Let's exclude the attractions that were put in know they were temporary, like the Gummy Bear overlay of the motor boat cruise...

Okay... Let's create that list of cartoon-based attractions that have closed in Disneyland.

1) Acorn crawl
2) Jolly Trolly

An "attraction" that can be found in just about any McDonalds, and a transportation ride that had safety concerns.


Shall we make the list of non-cartoon based attractions that have closed?

Let's jsut go with the big ones:
Subs
People Mover (originally an E-Ticket)
CoP
America Sings
AtIS
Mine Train through Nature's Wonderland
Motor Boat Cruise
Country Bears
Rocket to the Moon/Mars
Rocket Rods

Just off the top of my head, that is 10 BIG budget attractions that have gone away.... EVERY one of them non-cartoon based.


It is the non-cartoon based rides that have a problem staying relivant. The cartoon based ones have real staying power.

[dshimel]

This is a bit off topic (just barely) but why is HISTA so loathed now? It is a great show. It is dated and needs to be replaced but why does everyone hate it so much? Back in its day (1998) it was popular.

I find the thing more than a bit hard to follow....

Okay, you're there to see this inventor get an award, he has shrunk himslef and loses his control for his vehicle and crashes.... Okay, his kid will demo the replicator... he creates thousands of mice that run into the audience..... So far so good.

Then we're attack by a cat that becomes a lion!?!?!? What the ....?!

Then we get shrunk, attacked by a snake, picture taken, carried around... sneezed on by a giant dog.

Tooo much going on.

Muppets kind of has this same problem.....

I think they learned a lesson by the time they did Bugs..... Fewer effects that better tied together.


In addition to the story problems, HISTA is a movie base attraction. They NEVER do as well at longevity as rides. It is 7 years old and just about everyone (that visits DL with any regularity) has seen it many times.

[Neon Cactus]

The worst thing to come of the Tomorrowland rehab is taking Rocket Jets off of the top of the Peoplemover and turning it just another Dumbo.

[nish221]

This is a bit off topic (just barely) but why is HISTA so loathed now? It is a great show. It is dated and needs to be replaced but why does everyone hate it so much? Back in its day (1998) it was popular.

Actually, I don't hate it.... it's just that we've seen it ....hmmm... over 20 times?(
used to be my daughter's favorite thing in TL)

I think after the first two time, it just got really old.... it needed a refresh (even if they stay with the HIST theme) couple of years ago... Now, it's waaay past needing a refresh.... Anyway my two cents.... BTW. we were just in MK and saw Philharmagic six times and I guess because of the topic, it seems reasonably watchable. No chance
that we'll it as much as we've seen HISTA over the years (we're too far from WDW)
so I don't know how it'll continue to fair with us. BTW. I don't like "It's Tough
to Be a Bug" too much either now (same reason).

Anyway, my two cents... Nice overall thread though...

[Kevie]

[QUOTE=dshimel]

Oh my gawd.... that made me laugh so hard my cheaks hurt!!!!

QUOTE]

Okay, I think it's pretty rude to say someone's post made you laugh so hard your cheeks hurt.

WDW's Tomorrowland updates didnt ADD alot of things, but aesthetically it was done beautifully. They also refurbed existing things too. WDW was just more concious while updating their Tomorrowland, concious about how things needed to be updated.

[dshimel]

$200 million dollars, and 3 years later the land was in far worse shape than before they started....

"not a failure..."

Oh st-awwwww-p...... now my belly is starting to hurt from laughing so hard.

Some people will go to ANY length to prove the cartoon-ization of DL is a bad thing.

It is the "success" of TL'94 and TL'98 that is the biggest contributing factor to the cartoon-ization. They want to make sure they NEVER have successes like that again!!!!!

[Kevie]

Cartoonization stinks. I'm sorry, it just does. It's not going to last--once everyone starts realizing that Tomorrowland is (becoming) a collection of movie cartoon themed rides they'll get mad, after the novetly and populartiy wear off.

[dshimel]

Cartoonization stinks.

I agree... from a guest PoV. I'd much rather go on a big budget, cutting edge, animatronic filled, sci-faction-y based Tmorrowland type attraction.

But Disney can not be profitable having to redo the land every 10-15 years.

It sucks, but it is reality!

You can accept the unfortunate reality of the situation, or you can be angry.... Either way, cartoonization is going to continue.

[E Ticket]

I don't think you can compare the number of rides in Tomorrowland '98 to those in Critter Country.

Critter Country in area is small, and offers one E-ticket and a second newer dark ride. And the whole wooded setting gives the land a cozy, intimate feel to it. (On hot days, substitute "cozy" with "sardine-packed".

Frontierland has never been densely packed with rides, and doesn't have a long list of major attractions that one might lament the loss of. The whole land is pretty much Big Thunder and the Rivers of America, and that's all it's really ever been.

Tomorrowland on the other hand has had a long, diverse list of attractions that were nowhere to be found come 1998. The submarines closed up, as well as the Skyway. Mission to Mars closed to make way for a restaurant. Circlevision and Peoplemover closed to make way for Rocket Rods (which only lasted a few years). And the new Astro Orbitor was found on the ground instead of it's perch above Tomorrowland.

All that said, the new Tomorrowland offered one new major ride that had mild thrills and a short operating life. Things like Cosmic Waves, the Observatron, and Innoventions were labeled attractions, but that connection was tenuous at best.

Too many attractions had to close before Tomorrowland '98 ever opened. For a refurbishment to be successful, the sum of a land's parts (eg. rides, attractions, restaurants, themeing) should be better off following that renovation. I think most people regard Tomorrowland '98 as a failure because it was worse off than before.

[socal05]

The cartoon issue aside, I think the way to test your point is to list the GOOD, BAD and UGLY of the 98 "makeover"

In reverse order:

UGLY
1. The mini-mall paint job

BAD
1. "True, it doesnt have much in the way of rides" - taken from inital post
2. Starcade is an embarrassment
3. No more twinkies and milk under the Astro-jets ride (or anything else)
4. Previously America Sings (fun for entire family) now replaced by essentially a Circuit City (someone should be arrested!)
5. Peoplemover removed
6. Mary Blair mosaics - replaced by un-artistic painting of rides that don't exist. (Question: ANYONE know who painted this? Of course not.)
7. Subs close
8. Astro-jets high up with an incredible view are moved to front of TL - actually sunk into the ground to give least possible impact to ride and clog entrance (although it does hide the stagnent natuire of the current TL)

GOOD
1. Autopia - Enhancement: re-themed!
2. Rocket Rods - I loved them till they removed them
3. Big spinning marble (shortly had fountain)

If you can add to the GOOD, be my guest, but I honestly can't think of much.

The true metric is that I spent THE MOST time in the old TL when at DL, now I spend THE LEAST. Sad but true.

I know all these changes didn't happen at once, but this is what it added up to.

I do see some over reactions on this board, including some by myself. But one thing I know - The 98+ changes were terrible and I'd take them ALL back if I could. Fear not, my friend, we won't look back an miss anything...

[DisneyMickey]

Let me see here: The fact that they added the Jules Verne hardware to the entrance of the land (Star Tours, Buzz, Astro Orbiter, and those rocks), but didn't carry any of that into the land except the Observatron and Innoventions, left the land a mix of mini mall buidlings and fancy spires. They added a few nice handrails here and there, but didn't even touch the area around Magic Eye Theater. They added an assortment of dark colors to buildings, but didn't re-theme anything like WDW. They laid those pavers, and took away most of the movement of the land. The Observatron never accomplished what it was supposed to and never works anymore. When the Rocket Rods shut down, it left the track sitting there winding in and out of buildings with no use. Not to mention, the Rocket Rods also left a fairly good amount of damage to the track and surrouding buildings. The Astro Orbiter, due to where it was placed, now creates a bottle neck at the entrance to the land. The Submarine lagoon was left to sit for years. Since the budget was cut back so far, they didn't even bother to finish the new pave job- it was stopped right before Autopia. Luckily, new management stepped up and finished wrapping it around Tomorrowland to the Matterhorn. Over time, they added that ugly Buzz stage that looked like a garage sale, with a half character show. Space Mountain was painted creatively, but sadly faded into what looked like layers and layers of dust that had gathered on it. Cosmic Waves became completely wasted space and now leaves people wondering, "what the hell is that marble ball in the middle of the walkway supposed to be?"

The whole job was half assed all because of Paul Pressler and his goons. Everyone says Tomorrowland 1998-"Imagination and Beyond"- was a failure because most of the baggage that came along with it was shut down. Rocket Rods was first to go. It tore the track apart, and left structural damage on buildings. Cosmic Waves closed because it became a public bath and left water tracked out from around it. It turned a ride into a resturaunt, and the cool Space Bar into a tacky, un-used Radio Disney station. The Observatron sits up on its platform collecting dust from never moving, and the color scheme has most recently been painted over because it was so un-inspiring and ugly. However, the attempts of Tomorrowland 1998 applications like those neon spires, combined with concrete buildings create a mish-mash of appearance. Everything flows together nicely until you pass Star Tours. Once you get all the way into the land, everything is mixed together. It gets really bad when you walk over toward that Monorail station, which is hiddeous, and that UGLY Club Buzz area.


Sorry for being negavtive, but compare the themeing of Tomorrowland to ANY other land in Disneyland, or even WDW's "The Future That Never Was" theme, and it pales in comparison. It hardly makes you feel like you are in the future of anything. If want to make it feel REALLY inferior, compare it to it's sibling across the way in Paris. It's acutally laughable to think that they tried to accomplish Paris, with a 100 million dollar budget, and Rocket Rods taking most of that up. My friend used the analogy of Michael Jackson. It has changed so many times, that the final result isn't that great looking.

[Disney Analyst]

I dont see why you guys dont get this, as long as disney owns disneyland there will be cartoons! And I agree, cartoons have better staying power, why? Because the kids dream is to be apart of there favourite cartoon! Then they have to ride it again, and again, because? THERE WITH THEIR FAVOURITE CARTOON! We can't have disneyland all to ourselves, it's a family park, kids, teens, adults, seniors, EVERYONE!

[Kevie]

But they doesnt mean cartoons should take up all of Tomorrowland.

[DifrntDrmr]

I don't care where the inspiration comes from as long as the quality of the ride is excellent! If basing an attraction on a cartoon is going to boost the budget so the Imagineers can do what they want to do, so be it.