Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

"Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

Collapse

Get Away Today

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #81
    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

    Originally posted by BoogaFrito View Post
    Not a Haunted Mansion fan, eh?


    But I don't think the story suggestions were all that bad, either. It would still be something you'd mostly experience, as oppose to watch.

    What would really take the "story" angle too far would be a series of show scenes, where you learn, over the course of the attraction, that the ghosts aren't ghosts at all, but some devious prospector trying to scare the miners...
    Exactly! That's what the real difference seems to be... too much story can kill a good attraction when it leaves nothing to the imagination.
    Charlie :wave:
    MiceChat User #1037

    Comment


    • #82
      Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

      I think the implication of a story, without the actual physical characters, is the best of both worlds. The old Swiss was an example of this. You had a variety of show scenes, but they lacked a definative character. I really believe if they had updated it with the personal belongings of Tarzan, and left out the characters, magic mirror, and drawing room, that it would have been a great deal more popular. It would allow the kids to experience what their parents did in years past... imagine themselves living in the treehouse. It wasn't Swiss Treehouse, it was MY treehouse... and had they done this the effect would have been the same for the next generation.
      "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

      sigpic

      "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

      Comment


      • #83
        Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

        It's hard for me to pick between the two since I like both for reasons that are different and for reasons that are the same. For example, I've always loved to read. For some books the story is what creates the immersion for the reader, and conversely in a beatifully illustrated book like Dinotopia or The Katurrian Odyssey, the story can take back seat to the imersion and imagination that the pictures create. I guess you could prefer one style over the other, but I would never want one to replace the other.

        I guess the real problem with newer DL rides is that stories are tending to be told without subtlety and with limited imersion and imagination. Story can take the back seat, but it's really hard to make a good story work the other way around.

        Comment


        • #84
          Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

          Originally posted by cerpin taxt View Post
          I guess the real problem with newer DL rides is that stories are tending to be told without subtlety and with limited imersion and imagination...
          Probably because it is difficult to tell a story in the time it takes to ride an attraction.

          That's what make the imagination side so great... It's possible to imagine a plethora of possibilities in the time it takes for just one scene to be laid out and explained in a story-driven attraction.

          But I wholeheartedly agree with what Techskip said...
          Originally posted by Techskip
          I think the implication of a story, without the actual physical characters, is the best of both worlds.
          When a story is implied as a framework, then imagination and immersion are allowed to take over, it can be a beautiful thing.:thumbup:
          Charlie :wave:
          MiceChat User #1037

          Comment


          • #85
            Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

            That's true, attractions have to be short so if all it has going on is the forced narrative, it doesn't have very high re-ride value. Indianna Jones does have a definate story, even before you actually get on the ride. But the story isn't the rides strongest feature, and it's easy enough to ignore. If the experience and the visuals can still overpower the narrative when it's no longer needed, then I'm no more bored with it than a non-narrated ride. However, in the case of Tarzan's Treehouse, they made Tarzan's story everything which made it very hard to imagine anything else. There wasn't much else to look at or think about besides Tarzan.

            Comment


            • #86
              Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

              Yes, but there was a big difference between the Tarzan and Indiana Jones films.
              Most Disneyland guests have seen at least one of the Indiana Jones movies by the time they visit Disneyland. They know what happens in an Indy film... that Indy gets stuck in a situation that results in an action-packed escape of some sort. The Disneyland attraction recreates one of these "escape" scenes that allows all of the guests to be Indiana Jones for a few minutes.
              Conversely, Tarzan is an animated film, which makes it more difficult to identify with, and all of the elements of the attraction (as Techskip pointed out) have the full-size animated characters in them. This presentation doesn't leave much to the imagination.
              Charlie :wave:
              MiceChat User #1037

              Comment


              • #87
                Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

                That was my point too. Presentation can make all the difference. Indy had good presentation whether or not guests had context from the films. Tarzan had terrible, uninspiring presentaion whether or not anyone saw the cartoon, movie, book, or whatever. It didn't allow you to imagine yourself as Tarzan or Jane at any part of the attraction. Museums have better immersion than that.

                Comment


                • #88
                  Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

                  Originally posted by cerpin taxt View Post
                  It didn't allow you to imagine yourself as Tarzan or Jane at any part of the attraction. Museums have better immersion than that.
                  One again I jump into the fray to point out that imagination is a concept that can't be quantified.
                  Yes they do allow you to pretend to be Tarzan, if that's what you want to do.

                  discussing the pros and cons of an attraction is one thing, but you just can't quantify the relative, like Imagination.
                  St. Elizabeth, Patron Saint of Themed parks. Protect us from break downs, long lines, and used gum. Amen.

                  "Dance like it hurts, love like you need money, and work when people are watching" - Dogbert




                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

                    Originally posted by thejoshualee View Post
                    One again I jump into the fray to point out that imagination is a concept that can't be quantified.
                    Yes they do allow you to pretend to be Tarzan, if that's what you want to do.

                    discussing the pros and cons of an attraction is one thing, but you just can't quantify the relative, like Imagination.
                    How can you pretend to be Tarzan if Tarzan is staring right back at you?

                    When I was little, pretending to be my favorite Ninja Turtle, or X-Man, I wasn't watching the cartoons, or playing with the action figures... because I was watching the characters actually being themselves.

                    When I was playing with the action figures, the action figures became the actual characters via my manipulation.

                    I think if I had experienced Tarzan's Treehouse back when I still played with my old action figures, the static Tarzan figures in Tarzan's Treehouse wouldn't allow me to pretend I was Tarzan. It would show me - hey, Tarzan is here, so I just get to watch. My imagination would be limited by what was presented... I would be able to imagine what Tarzan was doing in the various scenes depicted in the treehouse vignettes.... but I couldn't actually become Tarzan.

                    I don't know... I suppose everybody's imagination works differently... But I think it would be pretty hard to ignore the big Tarzan figures and pretend you're Tarzan...

                    Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

                      Another thing I specifically remember about Swiss was that they went overboard in part BECAUSE they did not have definitive AA's everywhere. They had a giant water wheel, and every scene was full of various props and eye candy, plus the constant sound of running water in bamboo pipes. At night the lanterns came on and produced an effect that could only be called "magical". Disney took great pains to make the treehouse both believable and "lived in". In many ways it was Adventureland's Lincoln... all it needed was a little love and some freshening, it didn't need to be ripped out and replaced.
                      "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

                      sigpic

                      "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

                        Geez, the major difference between the opposing directions of "story-telling" between the Swiss Family Tree House and the Tarzan Treehouse, is that the Swiss versions (as TechSkip said) is vacant.

                        It's like the family went out to ride ostriches or something and you snuck into their lodgings to take a look around. With Tarzan, they basically retell the story of Tarzan and his relationship to Jane with each stop, even so much to include placards with written story prompts and digital effects, music, and voice-over.

                        Is Swiss a more pure version of story-telling? No. In fact, it's not story-telling at all. If we were to stumble onto the set of say, Jurassic Park in 1990 without any idea of what kind of movie was being made, we as quests would NO idea of what we were looking at. Same with the Swiss Family's Treehouse.

                        I distinctly remember hearing parents trying to explain to their kids what the heck they were walking through since those children were too young to remember the original film. That was part of the peculiarity of the attraction. When it was built, though, it was no better than our latest Pixar-based attractions, only that it was built as a set instead of a ride.

                        This would be akin to the "Pirates on TSI" overlay being a complete rebuild of the island as the Isla de Muerta caves, pirate haven of Tortuga, or the mass accident of Shipwreck Harbor from the films. These are immersing set pieces, not comprehensive rides.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

                          But Swiss Family Treehouse was still a more immersive set piece for me than Tarzan's treehouse. It's not because I prefer one story over the other, I actually like both very much. It's just that very simple difference that made me feel like the treehouse was mine, and that I lived there vs. feeling like I'm reading a golden book version of a Disney film. Is it such a bad thing that kids asked alot of questions about Swiss Family? I know a few little kids, and they'll ask questions all through a movie or book too. "Whassat? Whassat???" It's in their nature to ask, it doesn't mean everything should be made less confusing for them. Mabe more parents should show their kids the Swiss Family movie. It's not in the vault right now and it's a really great kids movie. It was an old movie when I was a kid, but I still appreciated it and watched it all the time, and spent even more time daydreaming about living there. That's what made the Treehouse visit so special, it made my daydream feel more real without having to have the story told to me again.

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

                            I'll go with Emersion and Imagination. To me, that's what it is all about. Swiss Family Robinson was a good example of Emersion. When you enetered the treehouse, it was if they had just stepped out for a moment, but were still living there. Tarzan....Well....Um....For goodness sakes, couldn't they have atleast made the attraction feel much less like a cartoon? I mean, Fantasyland and Toon Town are suppost to be where the cartoon characters live. Frontierland, NOS, Adventureland, & Tomorrowland are suppost to be more reality based.

                            Comment


                            • #94
                              Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

                              Originally posted by Rustymuscle View Post
                              Is Swiss a more pure version of story-telling? No. In fact, it's not story-telling at all. If we were to stumble onto the set of say, Jurassic Park in 1990 without any idea of what kind of movie was being made, we as quests would NO idea of what we were looking at. Same with the Swiss Family's Treehouse.

                              I distinctly remember hearing parents trying to explain to their kids what the heck they were walking through since those children were too young to remember the original film. That was part of the peculiarity of the attraction. When it was built, though, it was no better than our latest Pixar-based attractions, only that it was built as a set instead of a ride.
                              Not to interject but you are slightly off. Swiss also had amazingly well themed signs everywhere explaining what you were looking at. The difference is that it was only a sign, not a giant cartoon character, LCD display, or projection. Swiss allowed you to imagine instead of force feeding you everything. It was more of a museum display and less of a movie set. I also loved the sign "Mind thy head" because at 6'4... $*it happened!

                              http://matterhorn1959.blogspot.com/2...-number-1.html
                              http://matterhorn1959.blogspot.com/2...-number-2.html

                              And this just has some nice shots of the treehouse itself. http://davelandweb.com/treehouse/


                              Originally posted by cerpin taxt View Post
                              But Swiss Family Treehouse was still a more immersive set piece for me than Tarzan's treehouse. It's not because I prefer one story over the other, I actually like both very much. It's just that very simple difference that made me feel like the treehouse was mine, and that I lived there vs. feeling like I'm reading a golden book version of a Disney film. Is it such a bad thing that kids asked a lot of questions about Swiss Family? I know a few little kids, and they'll ask questions all through a movie or book too. "Whassat? Whassat???" It's in their nature to ask, it doesn't mean everything should be made less confusing for them. Maybe more parents should show their kids the Swiss Family movie. It's not in the vault right now and it's a really great kids movie. It was an old movie when I was a kid, but I still appreciated it and watched it all the time, and spent even more time daydreaming about living there. That's what made the Treehouse visit so special, it made my daydream feel more real without having to have the story told to me again.
                              I still ask as many questions as possible. It's just the way I am. The majority of little ones would ask "What does that say" while pointing to the sign. While I loved every inch of the old treehouse I have to say the waterwheel takes the cake! I would have loved to see an integration of old and new... I enjoy the bridge, but feel that the new Tarzan took away more then it brought to the table.
                              "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

                              sigpic

                              "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

                                As someone who worked the treehouse in mid-80's (and yes, wore the humiliating knickers) there is some serious revisionist history going on here - the treehouse was a ghost town that was visited basically by teenagers looking to make out or get stoned at the top. From my visits as a guest since Tarzan was installed, there are significantly more people (including children apparently using their imagination) now that is rethemed with a more relevant character (my kids are well versed in Disney lore and couldn't care less about Swiss Family).

                                Again, personal preference may be that one likes the previous version vs. today's, but let's not pretend that the previous was more popular - an 8 hour shift on "tree" was a good time to contemplate life and zone out for 8 hours, not exactly manage the hordes of people...
                                Last edited by rgrant999; 10-02-2007, 09:45 PM.

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

                                  Originally posted by rgrant999 View Post
                                  As someone who worked the treehouse in mid-80's (and yes, wore the humiliating knickers) there is some serious revisionist history going on here - the treeehouse was a ghost town that was visited basically by teenagers looking to make out or get stoned at the top. From my visits as a guest since Tarzan was installed, there are significantly more people (including children apparently using their imagination) now that is rethemed with a more relevant character (my kids are well versed in Disney lore and couldn't care less about Swiss Family).

                                  Again, personal preference may be that one likes the previous version vs. today's, but let's not pretend that the previous was more popular - an 8 hour shift on "tree" was a good time to contemplate life and zone out for 8 hours, not exactly manage the hordes of people...
                                  I wonder if Tarzan's Treehouse would be a similar ghost town if it weren't for the new entrance that was built smack dab in the middle of the Adventureland walkway that parents simply can't ignore once their kids see it?

                                  Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

                                    Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                                    I wonder if Tarzan's Treehouse would be a similar ghost town if it weren't for the new entrance that was built smack dab in the middle of the Adventureland walkway that parents simply can't ignore once their kids see it?
                                    Can't answer as obviously a rhetorical question, but I'm assuming you are not saying that the old treehouse was hidden from view before the new pirates bridge was built. There was certainly no shortage of visibility or access - in fact, plenty of people stopped by daily to ask the douchebag in the knickers all sorts of insightful questions about bathroom locations, parade times, etc. It was known as the Adventureland Information Booth...

                                    Comment


                                    • #98
                                      Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

                                      Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                                      I wonder if Tarzan's Treehouse would be a similar ghost town if it weren't for the new entrance that was built smack dab in the middle of the Adventureland walkway that parents simply can't ignore once their kids see it?
                                      Has to be something like that doesn't it.
                                      St. Elizabeth, Patron Saint of Themed parks. Protect us from break downs, long lines, and used gum. Amen.

                                      "Dance like it hurts, love like you need money, and work when people are watching" - Dogbert




                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

                                        Originally posted by rgrant999 View Post
                                        Can't answer as obviously a rhetorical question, but I'm assuming you are not saying that the old treehouse was hidden from view before the new pirates bridge was built. There was certainly no shortage of visibility or access - in fact, plenty of people stopped by daily to ask the douchebag in the knickers all sorts of insightful questions about bathroom locations, parade times, etc. It was known as the Adventureland Information Booth...
                                        I think I like you.

                                        Any post with Douchebag is good for me.


                                        I think this thread is making the mistake of "this is the way I remember it so it was best" problems. Then they try and justify their personal preference by quantifying things like "fun" and "imagination".

                                        I do imagine that I'm Tarzan when I'm in the tree house. The scene where Tarzan is staring at the mirror and when you look at it from the different angle it looks like he is staring right at you from the mirror, like he is your reflection. The camp area also works strong for that.

                                        I miss certain things that have gone away, but don't pretend that your inability to let go of the past somehow means that other people can't be fully immersed in an attraction that has a definite storyline.

                                        Okay, that sounded a bit rude. I don't mean it to be.
                                        St. Elizabeth, Patron Saint of Themed parks. Protect us from break downs, long lines, and used gum. Amen.

                                        "Dance like it hurts, love like you need money, and work when people are watching" - Dogbert




                                        Comment


                                        • Re: "Story" vs "Immersion and Imagination" - What works best for you?

                                          Originally posted by rgrant999 View Post
                                          Can't answer as obviously a rhetorical question, but I'm assuming you are not saying that the old treehouse was hidden from view before the new pirates bridge was built. There was certainly no shortage of visibility or access - in fact, plenty of people stopped by daily to ask the douchebag in the knickers all sorts of insightful questions about bathroom locations, parade times, etc. It was known as the Adventureland Information Booth...
                                          Originally posted by thejoshualee View Post
                                          Has to be something like that doesn't it.
                                          No, it doesn't have to be something like that.. if Tarzan's Treehouse is more popular than Swiss, then fine - Imagineering did its job and updated an old attraction into something more relevant.

                                          But come on, you can't say that the new entrance that clogs the already-congested walkway wasn't strategically planned to boost attendance.

                                          I have no personal sentimental attachment to the Treehouse. I hardly remember the Swiss Treehouse, and I have no attachment to the Tarzan incarnation either, my participation in this thread is soley based on the aspects of show presentation and theming.

                                          Photos, news, and commentary every week from Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom!

                                          Comment

                                          Get Away Today Footer

                                          Collapse
                                          Working...
                                          X