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  • #21
    Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

    Originally posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
    No movie is needed. The perception of need, however, has infiltrated Disney and has a death-grip on the budget, if recent examples are any indicator. Realistically, at DL, if major changes are to be made, it seems to require a cinematic anchor. Few like it, but most accept that this is the nature of the beast nowadays.

    I am not only a fan of DL, I am also a fan of Disney film. I see nothing wrong, or sad, about wanting a new Disney production to be a Western. It would kill two birds with one stone, for me: an overdue return to the American West in cinema, and possible inspiration to put some money into my favorite Land in DL.
    I really need to grab some popcorn then and catch up on that Expedition Everest movie!
    "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

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    • #22
      Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

      Originally posted by techskip View Post
      I really need to grab some popcorn then and catch up on that Expedition Everest movie!
      To your ONE example of semi-recent creativity I offer these: Crush's coaster and Turtle Talk, Finding Nemo, Pirate's Lair, the 'New' POTC, Tiki Room 'Under New Management', Laugh Floor, BLAB, Space Ranger Spin, Carland, Toy Story Midway Mania...etc. Detect a trend yet? Everyone else has. I think it is unrealistic to believe this new proclivity towards the establishment of cinematic foundation for new attractions (and attraction updates) is not essential to the current Disney philosophy.
      Last edited by fo'c's'le swab; 10-09-2007, 08:34 AM.

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      • #23
        Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

        Originally posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
        To your ONE example of semi-recent creativity I offer these: Crush's coaster and Turtle Talk, Finding Nemo, Pirate's Lair, the 'New' POTC, Tiki Room 'Under New Management', Laugh Floor, BLAB, Space Ranger Spin, Carland, Toy Story Midway Mania...etc. Detect a trend yet? Everyone else has. I think it is unrealistic to believe this new proclivity towards the establishment of cinematic foundation for new attractions (and attraction updates) is not essential to the current Disney philosophy.
        Nice list, but in your passion for listing things you neglected HTH, Soarin, California Screamin, Grizzly. Sad that they feel they need to make a movie just to imagine. I was under the impression Imagineer meant that they had an imagination and didn't need to be force fed a creative concept by a movie writer/producer.
        "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

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        • #24
          Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

          Originally posted by techskip View Post
          Nice list, but in your passion for listing things you neglected HTH, Soarin, California Screamin, Grizzly. Sad that they feel they need to make a movie just to imagine. I was under the impression Imagineer meant that they had an imagination and didn't need to be force fed a creative concept by a movie writer/producer.
          Wouldn't call it a passion so much as a penchant for pointing out the obvious; and the obvious is: that Disney (right or wrong; in my opinion, wrong) feels safer creating attractions with cinematic foundation, and box-office momentum, so that is what they create. If one objectively observes the situation, it is clear this is Disney's current strategy. I agree this is not a winning strategy, however. A WRE-type attraction is what I would wish for Frontierland, but those hopes are dim (at best) when one views the creative landscape we have been favored with in DL, and in Frontierland itself. Have creative attractions been constructed outside of the Box-Office influence in recent past? Few, and one has to stretch back almost ten years to find some. But recently it is clear that box-office is King whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

          Placing blame on Imagineers may be unwarranted. I have seen no evidence that Disney is unable to come up with creative attractions, just unable to take significant creative risk. Imagineers can only build what's approved, after all.
          Last edited by fo'c's'le swab; 10-09-2007, 12:21 PM.

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          • #25
            Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

            Originally posted by techskip View Post
            Nice list, but in your passion for listing things you neglected HTH, Soarin, California Screamin, Grizzly. Sad that they feel they need to make a movie just to imagine. I was under the impression Imagineer meant that they had an imagination and didn't need to be force fed a creative concept by a movie writer/producer.

            From that list it looks like every park but Disneyland is getting the creativity.

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            • #26
              Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

              Regarding tie ins, I would even say that if Disney made a western, they wouldn't even have to create a ride to exploit it, the land itself could have merchandise and even a show to take advantage of the film.

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              • #27
                Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

                Originally posted by Pirate Lover 68 View Post
                Regarding tie ins, I would even say that if Disney made a western, they wouldn't even have to create a ride to exploit it, the land itself could have merchandise and even a show to take advantage of the film.
                Original merchandise used to be a big part of the individual identity of each Land. I would love to see a new line of Frontierland specific items offered only in Frontierland. I realize that commerce is fueled by convenience these days, but generic merchandising is leaving us with one uniform, boring retail experience, IMO.

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                • #28
                  Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

                  Originally posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
                  Original merchandise used to be a big part of the individual identity of each Land. I would love to see a new line of Frontierland specific items offered only in Frontierland. I realize that commerce is fueled by convenience these days, but generic merchandising is leaving us with one uniform, boring retail experience, IMO.
                  Completely agree with you... I have seen threads and commented on them regarding how I miss shopping in the different lands BECAUSE of their differing items that were specific to those lands. While this happens in some ways (Indy stuff in Adventureland, Princess stuff in Fantasyland) it's not nearly as unique experience as it used to be. That being said, I know that some items were simply TOO unique and folks didn't see the way that the purchase tied into their Disney experience, so the sales probably weren't what they could have been.

                  There HAS to be a happy medium on this matter though, don't you think? I remember buying a "flintlock" as a kid outside of Pirates and I ALWAYS knew where I got that from.

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                  • #29
                    Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

                    Why don't they come up with something new and original for Forntierland? No Pirates, no High School Musical, or Pixar. There are plenty of ideas they could come up with.

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                    • #30
                      Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

                      I've recently finished two bios of Disney, the Gabler and the Barrier ones, and it seemed to me that Walt himself pointed to "content" as the key for the theme parks' success. And it also seemed that most of the attractions came from cartoons and movies (except for the ones coming from the exhibitions at the World's Fair in 1964). I know that Pirates is supposedly an original as it doesn't come from a Disney film, but I seem to recall mention of Erroll Flynn's swashbuckling films (which I've never seen) when the books were discussing the development of the POTC attraction. Is this observation incorrect?

                      As far as westerns go, I too like the genre, the old John Wayne vehicles and High Noon were great, and I really enjoyed Silverado and Tombstone (two mentioned in other posts), but they weren't exactly mega hits if I recall. (Tombstone might have been the bigger of the two.) That said, everyone I've talked to who's seen either (or both) liked them a lot...

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                      • #31
                        Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

                        Originally posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
                        Original merchandise used to be a big part of the individual identity of each Land. I would love to see a new line of Frontierland specific items offered only in Frontierland. I realize that commerce is fueled by convenience these days, but generic merchandising is leaving us with one uniform, boring retail experience, IMO.
                        That is a steller idea. Now all we need to do is make a movie about a guy who buys nothing but western clothing in the western themed area of a theme park. Of course it will have to be CGI so we can incorporate Pixar into it somehow.
                        "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

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                        • #32
                          Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

                          Originally posted by Pirate Lover 68 View Post
                          Regarding tie ins, I would even say that if Disney made a western, they wouldn't even have to create a ride to exploit it, the land itself could have merchandise and even a show to take advantage of the film.
                          There is one western Disney made in the last 10 years that was pretty good, ok it was under the Touchstone label: Shanghai Noon

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                          • #33
                            Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

                            Originally posted by pineapplewhipaddict View Post
                            ...The problem is that Disney execs have no faith in original ideas...

                            I think you have pointed out the elephant in the room. This was best exemplified by Pressler whose cost cutting measures nearly bottomed Disneyland out. His recent experience at the GAP where he let all the creative original thinkers go only to then not have anyone left to grasp new merchandise trends/ideas further illustrate this.

                            There is nothing at all wrong with being a bean-counter. But when that is your only talent, you shouldn't be in a position to "manage" the creative staff.

                            Simply put:

                            The creative, original thinkers need to be running Imagineering and turning out new concepts and ideas, not being told "here is what I want based on this other thing, and it can only cost this much."

                            The bean-counters and I include the Management structure in this, need to find the funding and appropriate (and appropriately paid) staff to make it happen. If they can't do that - they need to be let go (Is the GAP hiring?).

                            The lawyers should be finding out how to make these things happen within the laws and not be the roadblock to creativity because the perceived (not actual) risk is in their overpaid opinion - too high.

                            The Disney leadership needs a severe wake-up-call and reality-check.

                            I would love to see Frontierland based on westerns again...





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                            • #34
                              Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

                              Is it that management doesn't realize it... or is it that they do not care?
                              "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

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                              "Creating magical memories and making Managers cry since 1955!"

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                              • #35
                                Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

                                Since Walt Disney's Westward Expansion theme has been all but gutted, which direction do we turn to represent the 'new' Frontierland? While the original purpose of the Land was to explore the many dimensions of the 'American Frontier', from the civilized, to the settled, to the wild and primitive, we see little left nowadays. TSI has been replaced, it's representation of Missouri in the settled 'West' gone. 'F!' plays nightly on the serene RoA nightly (seasonally), up to three times, infringing upon the Mark Twain's rightful thematic territory. The civilized Port of New Orleans, where one could board a boat for Galveston in the Wild West is now a buccaneer's dream. The Wild West saloon doesn't even serve sasparilla, and the Mercantile Store? They sell Mickey plushes. Indian Village? Adios.

                                So if Frontierland is being distilled down to its bare essence, what should that essence be? The Wild West? The Deep South? The Gold Rush? The Frontier Border states (Missouri, Arkansas, etc.)? Indian Territories? Since the many complex identities of Frontierland seem to be disappearing, in favor of a more narrow view of the 'Frontier', what should represent it?

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                                • #36
                                  Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

                                  I'll always think of Frontierland as the Wild West.

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                                  • #37
                                    Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

                                    I'm in this a bit late but here goes...

                                    Great topic PL! I quoted you above to mention that I half agree with that point. I do indeed think that synergy is a good thing and that originally synergy helped DL become the amazing dream-magic theme park that it became. HOWEVER, synergy has to stay fresh and diverse or it turns into pedantic over kill. The synergy of the early park was great and it also included a vast array of things.

                                    Today what some call synergy I see as one tracked over kill. Pirates are popular so put pirates EVERYWHERE!! Pirate merchandise in Fantasyland, Tomorrowland, ect...

                                    I also agree with what many have said, that movies are not needed to create new rides and attractions but it appears Disney has gotten "gun shy" about actually green lighting a really original ideas. Even some things that are not movie inspired are rides/attractions from other parks (WDW) but renamed.

                                    In my opinion synergy is only good if real imagination is involved as one of the forces that is to be combined with other things to create something.

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                                    • #38
                                      Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

                                      It saddens me that kids today don't know who Davy Crockett is. I'm only 27, and believe me, I had my coonskin cap and I wore it out.

                                      This was of course back in the day when the Disney Channel's only original programming was Mousercise and Kids Incorporated. Other than that I was treated to a festival of 30's - 50's cartoons and live action treasures such as Davy Crockett, the Absent Minded Professor, Polyanna, Pete's Dragon, etc.

                                      Davy Crockett and the River Pirates is still one of my favorite films of all time.

                                      It's entirely conceivable that Disney could come up with a reinvention of the Western, just as the Pirates trilogy took the swashbuckling epic and infused a supernatural bent. But it would have to be a heck of a lot more watchable than Shanghai Noon. Axion the first: no Owen Wilson please.

                                      Maybe Johnny Depp will come up with some kind of gunslinging outlaw character they can build an empire upon. He could base it on a cross between Jimmy Page and Elmer Fudd. (Actually, he's already done a western, a not-for-kids picture called Dead Man which is my number one favorite film of all time. But it's dark and existential and not Disney.)
                                      Zoe Necrosis
                                      Chancellor, Yensid's School of Sorcery and Necromancy

                                      Potter Day Lite: Spring 2013!

                                      http://potterday.org

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                                      • #39
                                        Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

                                        Great points everyone. I do agree that synergy taken to an extreme (pirates in every corner of the park) kills the effect and plays out what fun could have been found in it. Of course, any synergistic move that would effect Frontierland has precious little space to caplitalize on in the first place.

                                        As to WHAT aspect of "western expansion" do you highlight? Well, I think your best bet IS the wild west for the main reason that it's the most recognizable. I do think a ride based on western myths could be fun...Paul Bunyan (sp?), Pecos Bill...etc. Could make a great dark ride. Of course, chances are this would be based on an animated feature and then Swab would be up in arms that they added a cartoon to Frontierland...lol

                                        Alas, MY desire would be that they would come up with a GREAT origional idea for a ride, perhaps one that has an interesting character element, and then a few years later, they come up with a great film to feed back into the park again.

                                        A guy can dream.

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                                        • #40
                                          Re: Frontierland needs Synergy...

                                          Dreams are welcome PL68. Eventually they will realize what they missed out on by not giving TLC to Frontierland. Either way, tomorrowland will get the attention, pirates and whatever movie is hot then will get the add-ons and Frontierland will be left alone growing more stale with each passing year.

                                          Sad but you can see it coming.

                                          Chad

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