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Disneyland crowds. Can the issue be solved?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by longbeachaztec View Post

    I lived in Japan for a couple of years, also. I think there's some truth to your point, but I wouldn't take it too far. I can't imagine subway riders in New York ever being OK with the gloved "crowd pushers" they have at the Tokyo metro stations, for example, so it's not all just a matter of the American consumer "getting used to it." Cultural differences are real, and Anaheim has to pay a price for overcrowding that Tokyo never will.

    Up until now, they've decide that the price of overcrowding is worth it. But, a lot of us think (maybe naively) it will eventually change.
    No but what I'm saying is I have never heard of any theme park anywhere ever talk about 'lowering crowds'. Its ALWAYS been the complete opposite. They seem to have no issues with packing as many people as possible as long as the fire codes would legally allow. I think most theme parks see it the same way, if you can get as many in there you can. In fact I think this is the standard way of thinking at any tourist/amusement park. I been to a lot of tourist sites worldwide. Ever been to the Vatican? The Louvre? They pack tourists in as many as they can in a lot of these places, certainly in busy seasons.

    Look what happened when Harry Potter open at Universal Orlando. It was literally hours wait just to get in. Did Universal ever come up with a policy to contain the crowds? Did they ever come up with a attendance cap? Did they have some kind of fast pass system that limits people per day? The only thing I remember hearing was they had a system where people had a time to enter but that was only because the fire codes could only allow so many people in the space and they packed that sucker to every last body they could both legally and physically fit in for years. So no I don't think this is just Japan alone, they are simply more use to it but EVERYONE would do it if they could...and have.

    I'm only saying this idea that Disneyland being extremely busy is A. Something Disney sees as a 'problem' is clearly false and B. That this is what most companies strive for. In fact opening day of the place, wasn't it like tens of thousands more than they thought would show up? Did they turn anyone away? I'm really asking because IIRC they had no problem letting as many in as they can squeeze in and that seem to have always been the policy literally since day one.

    Now I'm not saying its not a problem on some levels. They can probably do a better job HANDLING the crowds, no doubt. And I think people have to remember DL is a 60 year old park. It was built with a much daily less attendance in mind when there were simply much less people living in the area and not everyone was hopping on airplanes as easily as today. Obviously thats part of the reason why DCA was built to find a way to balance out the crowds. And DCA is clearly a park that was built to handle bigger crowds from day one even if its a smaller capacity. Its amazing how when you go to DCA even if the place is jammed there is just a more freer feeling walking around because the walk ways are just bigger and there is a lot of flow areas DL just doesn't have. But thats 40 years of theme park building to go on.

    So I'm not really disagreeing something probably should be done in terms of how crowds are handled at DL but I don't think DL remotely cares. Not at all. To them its just more bragging rights to their shareholders and end of the day I'm sorry people, if you simply feel the park is too busy then you have the choice not to go. In this day and age where we have so many tools to tell us how crowded these places get it makes our decision even easier.
    Last edited by Fctiger; 03-20-2017, 04:38 PM.

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    • #32
      I haven't read this entire thread as this topic is a constant discussion in many threads. But for me if they could just find a way to make the walkways in most of the lands wider it would go a long way to making it feel less crowded. However I know that is likely never going to happen. But a guy can dream....

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Scottieboy View Post
        I haven't read this entire thread as this topic is a constant discussion in many threads. But for me if they could just find a way to make the walkways in most of the lands wider it would go a long way to making it feel less crowded. However I know that is likely never going to happen. But a guy can dream....
        Even if they widened the walkways and added acreage to the park, the crowding would continue. As highway engineers have known for decades, no matter how many lanes you add to a freeway, traffic will increase to its bottleneck limits as long as the population increases and automobiles are available for purchase. That's the situation with the DLR: Disney continues to aggressively market what is arguably the biggest entertainment bargain in California, the AP. They vigorously promote their on-site hotels and vacation packages around the world. The DLR is a nexus of synergy for their popular brands. The demand grows year after year, as does the population.

        There are only three solutions. The first is to limit the amount of customers on-property at any one time. Disney currently does exactly that -- it's called the Fire Marshall limit. Below that limit, Disney does everything possible to fill every available square yard of their property with as many customers as the law allows. They will do the same for every square yard they add to the property with new lands or widened walkways.

        The second solution is to open another property in the same population market, and compete with themselves. A third gate. But given enough brand popularity and increase in population, that, too will be filled to legal capacity.

        The third solution is a limit imposed from outside -- a decrease in demand due to customer dissatisfaction, or an economic recession. Neither appear likely in the foreseeable future.

        As you said, we can dream -- of a time when Disneyland had a reliable off season, and it was possible to count on being able to enjoy the park without spending most of the day staring at the back of someone's neck. While it's not impossible that those days may return in some future time, it is absolutely impossible that it will happen during this management regime.


        Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 03-20-2017, 05:53 PM.
        "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
        Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
        imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

        - Neil Gabler

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post

          Even if they widened the walkways and added acreage to the park, the crowding would continue. As highway engineers have known for decades, no matter how many lanes you add to a freeway, traffic will increase to its bottleneck limits as long as the population increases and automobiles are available for purchase. That's the situation with the DLR: Disney continues to aggressively market what is arguably the biggest entertainment bargain in California, the AP. They vigorously promote their on-site hotels and vacation packages around the world. The DLR is a nexus of synergy for their popular brands. The demand grows year after year, as does the population.

          There are only three solutions. The first is to limit the amount of customers on-property at any one time. Disney currently does exactly that -- it's called the Fire Marshall limit. Below that limit, Disney does everything possible to fill every available square yard of their property with as many customers as the law allows. They will do the same for every square yard they add to the property with new lands or widened walkways.

          The second solution is to open another property in the same population market, and compete with themselves. A third gate. But given enough brand popularity and increase in population, that, too will be filled to legal capacity.

          The third solution is a limit imposed from outside -- a decrease in demand due to customer dissatisfaction, or an economic recession. Neither appear likely in the foreseeable future.

          As you said, we can dream -- of a time when Disneyland had a reliable off season, and it was possible to count on being able to enjoy the park without spending most of the day staring at the back of someone's neck. While it's not impossible that those days may return in some future time, it is absolutely impossible that it will happen during this management regime.

          While I can appreciate your analogy on the highways, its not quite a one-for-one comparison. Additionally there is a point where adding more capacity (in this conversation widening walkways) will do good. In your example of highways, if you convert a 10 lane highway into 100 lanes, traffic will be nonexistent. Same goes for widening walkways, if you add enough space for people to spread out it will make it less congested.

          However your point is still valid, Disney will do whatever it can to pack the place, just like any business would.

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          • #35
            As others have pointed out, the heart of the problem is in Disneyland PARK...a park that is over 60 years old and not designed to handle the kind of crowds it has now. To redo walkways would mean tearing out massive sections of the park, which I don't see happening. Good to know that Disney is thinking ahead as far as SW land is concerned.

            I can't really see a viable solution to the crowding in DL. As far as I know it's the only one of the two parks that will fill up to complete capacity during the holiday season. The only solution I have is to keep investing in DCA to the point where there is more stuff worth doing in that park and is close to DL's quality as possible so that more people are willing to go there a over DL. I don't trust a third gate to do well if Disney were to build one now.

            Comment


            • #36
              Sad realization. They could do something right now that would greatly improve foot traffic flow on Main Street and it is already there. Keep the overflow corridors open at all times. Why don't they? Well the sad fact that this would reduce shopping opportunities.

              At least they would think so.

              Comment


              • #37
                Yes, they need to redo Tomorrowland entrance and find a way to have a side entrance on main street that is open more

                Besides that AP's need to have limits on them...No Pass that gives you unlimited days. At max 24 days a year (thats two a month more then enough)
                I'd say the lowest pass have limits like 12 visits


                The next time I come to Disneyland (a year after Star Wars Land comes out) I''ll be doing magic morning and having a hotel to nap at in the middle of the day. But the reason I quit Disney right now is lack of new attractions/rides that interest me and the crowds. So my money is going to Universal and they love getting it
                Happy Halloween!!!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Scottieboy View Post

                  While I can appreciate your analogy on the highways, its not quite a one-for-one comparison. Additionally there is a point where adding more capacity (in this conversation widening walkways) will do good. In your example of highways, if you convert a 10 lane highway into 100 lanes, traffic will be nonexistent. Same goes for widening walkways, if you add enough space for people to spread out it will make it less congested.

                  However your point is still valid, Disney will do whatever it can to pack the place, just like any business would.
                  What Mr Wiggins is referring to is called "induced demand", and I think his analogy is actually quite a good comparison to what may happen to walkway size increases in Disneyland and DCA. Induced demand is what begins to occur after supply of something is increased, the demand also increases. In his analogy of highway traffic reaching capacity after expansion is is a prime example of that. When highway lanes are added, the capacity of the new lane reaches capacity, and the cycle only continues. If the walkways in Disneyland were increased, slowly the capacity of them could very well become just as busy as before.

                  If you convert a 10 lane highway into 100 lanes, you wouldn't have a city anymore,. If you make the size of walkways at Disneyland equivalent to 100 lanes, you would have no more park. The park of course would of course be less congested, as it would just be at a parking lot. Im not sure what you were trying to say there.

                  I am curious at how capacity at Magic Kingdom in Orlando's new hub has changed since it was made larger.
                  -Tyler

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by CoalingaLucy View Post
                    Sad realization. They could do something right now that would greatly improve foot traffic flow on Main Street and it is already there. Keep the overflow corridors open at all times. Why don't they? Well the sad fact that this would reduce shopping opportunities.

                    At least they would think so.
                    As I recall, Disneyland Paris's Main Street area had more than one street from the hub to the exit. Is that right?

                    Could DL add entrances from the overflow corridors to some shops? Some some shops would effectively "pass through" from "Main" Street to the "Side" Streets. And maybe have shops connecting from "Side" Street to Tomorrowland as well. There is obviously precedent for this kind of thing between Adventureland and Frontierland and kind of between Fantasyland and Frontierland.

                    This could potentially increase shopping opportunities, make them more accessible and improve traffic flow especially during parades.

                    Just a thought. Don't know for sure if it would work.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Tyler1994 View Post

                      What Mr Wiggins is referring to is called "induced demand", and I think his analogy is actually quite a good comparison to what may happen to walkway size increases in Disneyland and DCA. Induced demand is what begins to occur after supply of something is increased, the demand also increases. In his analogy of highway traffic reaching capacity after expansion is is a prime example of that. When highway lanes are added, the capacity of the new lane reaches capacity, and the cycle only continues. If the walkways in Disneyland were increased, slowly the capacity of them could very well become just as busy as before.

                      If you convert a 10 lane highway into 100 lanes, you wouldn't have a city anymore,. If you make the size of walkways at Disneyland equivalent to 100 lanes, you would have no more park. The park of course would of course be less congested, as it would just be at a parking lot. Im not sure what you were trying to say there.

                      I am curious at how capacity at Magic Kingdom in Orlando's new hub has changed since it was made larger.
                      I'm aware of induced demand, its a common topic in economics. However for that to apply here one important piece of data that is missing is maximum capacity of the parks, which is not controlled by Disney.

                      If they make the walkways wider but the max cap remains the same then congestion and traffic flow of guests improves. If the max cap goes up along with the widening of the walkways then its a wash.

                      For this analogy to work then one has to assume that max cap will be increased as well. Which cannot be assumed since Disney has not control over that.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Scottieboy View Post
                        I'm aware of induced demand, its a common topic in economics. However for that to apply here one important piece of data that is missing is maximum capacity of the parks, which is not controlled by Disney.

                        If they make the walkways wider but the max cap remains the same then congestion and traffic flow of guests improves. If the max cap goes up along with the widening of the walkways then its a wash.

                        For this analogy to work then one has to assume that max cap will be increased as well. Which cannot be assumed since Disney has not control over that.
                        Max cap is a crowd-movement-safety estimate that includes number of occupants, amount of space, and bottleneck factors (the number, size and availability of exits/entrances).


                        "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
                        Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
                        imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

                        - Neil Gabler

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          There is always the legal "did Disney do everything it could to mitigate crowding risks" concern. From an objective view the answer is no. I've seen people actually pushed down to the ground at Disneyland after fireworks following a parade. How long before one of them sues?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post

                            Max cap is a crowd-movement-safety estimate that includes number of occupants, amount of space, and bottleneck factors (the number, size and availability of exits/entrances).

                            I understand, and its controlled by the fire marshal not Disney. So the fire marshal would have to increase max cap for your analogy to work. However one cannot just simply assume that will be the case. So if max cap remains the same and walkways are widened then the analogy fails.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I think larger pathways/wider walkways would definitely do a lot of good if they could be possible. Look at WDW's Magic Kingdom. Disneyland gets almost the same number of guests in a year now and the MK has a good 20-25K higher capacity. And yet the MK's crowds are never as intolerable or sandwich you or pancake you as badly nor do they ever feel as packed as the walkways and paths at DL do. That's proof right there that wider areas go along way to elevating crowd issues. Sadly, I don't think there really is any way Disney can upgrade DL's pathways or walkways to be bigger without tearing out attractions or buildings used for restrooms or restaurants.

                              For years I have always heard the argument why DL is the best is because of it's charm and how small it is. Well, I think many are finally realizing that charm and smaller size can only make the park attractive so much before the crowds make it a sardine can and not quite so attractive any more. I think we are just now hitting that boiling point so to speak.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I sure hope DL's capacity is not raised once the DLRR, the ROA and SWL are all opened. I think capacity should stay exactly the same where it is now, presumably near 50K. With those areas open, 50K will actually be much more manageable and feel safer. Sadly, I think Disney will only want to pack as many guests as they possibly can since it comes down to more people = more cash moolah $$$$; and we'll see DL's capacity raised another 10-15k probably.

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