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Disneyland crowds. Can the issue be solved?

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Scottieboy View Post
    I'm aware of induced demand, its a common topic in economics. However for that to apply here one important piece of data that is missing is maximum capacity of the parks, which is not controlled by Disney.

    If they make the walkways wider but the max cap remains the same then congestion and traffic flow of guests improves. If the max cap goes up along with the widening of the walkways then its a wash.

    For this analogy to work then one has to assume that max cap will be increased as well. Which cannot be assumed since Disney has not control over that.
    Max cap is a crowd-movement-safety estimate that includes number of occupants, amount of space, and bottleneck factors (the number, size and availability of exits/entrances).


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    Young girl at Disneyland's 2017 Candlelight Ceremony

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    • #42
      There is always the legal "did Disney do everything it could to mitigate crowding risks" concern. From an objective view the answer is no. I've seen people actually pushed down to the ground at Disneyland after fireworks following a parade. How long before one of them sues?

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      • #43
        Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post

        Max cap is a crowd-movement-safety estimate that includes number of occupants, amount of space, and bottleneck factors (the number, size and availability of exits/entrances).

        I understand, and its controlled by the fire marshal not Disney. So the fire marshal would have to increase max cap for your analogy to work. However one cannot just simply assume that will be the case. So if max cap remains the same and walkways are widened then the analogy fails.

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        • #44
          I think larger pathways/wider walkways would definitely do a lot of good if they could be possible. Look at WDW's Magic Kingdom. Disneyland gets almost the same number of guests in a year now and the MK has a good 20-25K higher capacity. And yet the MK's crowds are never as intolerable or sandwich you or pancake you as badly nor do they ever feel as packed as the walkways and paths at DL do. That's proof right there that wider areas go along way to elevating crowd issues. Sadly, I don't think there really is any way Disney can upgrade DL's pathways or walkways to be bigger without tearing out attractions or buildings used for restrooms or restaurants.

          For years I have always heard the argument why DL is the best is because of it's charm and how small it is. Well, I think many are finally realizing that charm and smaller size can only make the park attractive so much before the crowds make it a sardine can and not quite so attractive any more. I think we are just now hitting that boiling point so to speak.

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          • #45
            I sure hope DL's capacity is not raised once the DLRR, the ROA and SWL are all opened. I think capacity should stay exactly the same where it is now, presumably near 50K. With those areas open, 50K will actually be much more manageable and feel safer. Sadly, I think Disney will only want to pack as many guests as they possibly can since it comes down to more people = more cash moolah $$$$; and we'll see DL's capacity raised another 10-15k probably.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by DarthBrett78 View Post
              I think larger pathways/wider walkways would definitely do a lot of good if they could be possible. Look at WDW's Magic Kingdom. Disneyland gets almost the same number of guests in a year now and the MK has a good 20-25K higher capacity. And yet the MK's crowds are never as intolerable or sandwich you or pancake you as badly nor do they ever feel as packed as the walkways and paths at DL do. That's proof right there that wider areas go along way to elevating crowd issues. Sadly, I don't think there really is any way Disney can upgrade DL's pathways or walkways to be bigger without tearing out attractions or buildings used for restrooms or restaurants.

              For years I have always heard the argument why DL is the best is because of it's charm and how small it is. Well, I think many are finally realizing that charm and smaller size can only make the park attractive so much before the crowds make it a sardine can and not quite so attractive any more. I think we are just now hitting that boiling point so to speak.
              Agreed, especially about the example of WDW. For me it was just a pipe dream when I brought it up. But if they could some how take as little as 2-4 feet off of the store fronts on each side of Main St, that alone would improve things in my opinion.

              Who knows in the future they may have to do just that with making some of the buildings smaller.

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              • #47
                How about adding a second level to some of the buildings, and maybe a connected balcony/walkway? This could perhaps also be used for parade and fireworks viewing. It would mess up some of the ambience, but maybe it could be executed well.
                Dumbo rats: the other lovable rodents.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by whiteness View Post
                  How about adding a second level to some of the buildings, and maybe a connected balcony/walkway? This could perhaps also be used for parade and fireworks viewing. It would mess up some of the ambience, but maybe it could be executed well.
                  I'd be all for that. Especially in some of the restaurants and shops. I'm actually surprised it hasn't been done already. However some purists may bring up that it would destroy the forced perspective of certain parts of the parks. But I'm sure that can be adjusted.

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Scottieboy View Post

                    Agreed, especially about the example of WDW. For me it was just a pipe dream when I brought it up. But if they could some how take as little as 2-4 feet off of the store fronts on each side of Main St, that alone would improve things in my opinion.

                    Who knows in the future they may have to do just that with making some of the buildings smaller.
                    1,000 yes's. If that's a thing.

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Scottieboy View Post

                      I'd be all for that. Especially in some of the restaurants and shops. I'm actually surprised it hasn't been done already. However some purists may bring up that it would destroy the forced perspective of certain parts of the parks. But I'm sure that can be adjusted.
                      It would be amazing dinning on the second level of Main Street. Almost as nice as Blue Bayou.
                      Dumbo rats: the other lovable rodents.

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                      • #51
                        Originally posted by whiteness View Post

                        It would be amazing dinning on the second level of Main Street. Almost as nice as Blue Bayou.
                        Parade/Firework dining, I'm all for it.

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                        • #52
                          Disneyland wants to continue to draw as many people as possible to make as much money as possible. So in theory, the crowds will never go down. However, there is one key way to make DL feel way less crowded.

                          Spread people out. DL only feels overly crowded when you are on Main Street, in Tomorrowland, and in Fantasyland (in my opinion). Why? Because this is where people want to be (Main Street is an exception and will most likely always be crowded due to the park's layout). Fantasyland and Tomorrowland not only have some of the best rides, but they have multiple entrances so people who don't even want to go to Fantasyland or Tomorrowland often walk through these lands to get to other places. Critter Country and New Orleans Square have much less people because there are less rides in that area and it is a dead end. Disney at least understands this issue and is trying to fix it by putting Star Wars Land in between Frontierland and Critter Country (moving people to that area of the park).

                          This concept of spreading people out really does work. Over at WDW, DHS and DAK get about the same number of annual visitors. Yet, DAK feels so much roomier because everything is spread out. Dinosaur is on the south side of the park, EE is on the east side, Kilimanjaro is on the north side, and Pandora will eventually be on the west side. Obviously, DL doesn't have as much room as DAK, but the concept still holds true.

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                          • #53
                            I agree with Scottieboy and Mr.P. I just got back and holy moly was it crowded! So crowded that the time to walk from A to B was doubled or tripled. Walking around DCA is so much better because of the wider walkways accommodating the crowds especially when the 4-wide party in front of you decides to stop all at once. People are still camping on Main St. causing others the slow down and avoid their picnic areas. The Adventureland bottleneck has CM's directing traffic flows. The lines coming from HM, PotC and SW snake all over the place. An (un)popular idea I had was to charge a premium for strollers and scooters. they take up so much room and are used for the wrong purposes. Strollers are used for mass storage not weary children and scooters are the new clown cars with entire families hanging off them. Disney should charge another $25-$50 per scooter/stroller for the day and lets see if these space-takers start to disappear? There was actually a handicap line for PotC! I've never seen that. 1 scooter and a half a dozen family members stretching back to the Royal Street Veranda. I understand ADA rules and how it may apply to the scooter but its time to start charging guests for what they bring in the park and strollers are the biggest offenders.
                            My wife is the rebel spy.

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                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Darth Scottie View Post
                              I agree with Scottieboy and Mr.P. I just got back and holy moly was it crowded! So crowded that the time to walk from A to B was doubled or tripled. Walking around DCA is so much better because of the wider walkways accommodating the crowds especially when the 4-wide party in front of you decides to stop all at once. People are still camping on Main St. causing others the slow down and avoid their picnic areas. The Adventureland bottleneck has CM's directing traffic flows. The lines coming from HM, PotC and SW snake all over the place. An (un)popular idea I had was to charge a premium for strollers and scooters. they take up so much room and are used for the wrong purposes. Strollers are used for mass storage not weary children and scooters are the new clown cars with entire families hanging off them. Disney should charge another $25-$50 per scooter/stroller for the day and lets see if these space-takers start to disappear? There was actually a handicap line for PotC! I've never seen that. 1 scooter and a half a dozen family members stretching back to the Royal Street Veranda. I understand ADA rules and how it may apply to the scooter but its time to start charging guests for what they bring in the park and strollers are the biggest offenders.
                              Darth Scottie, out of curiosity....were there a lot of attractions that went down throughout the day? I ask because when we were there a couple of weeks ago, it was almost a comedy of errors. Virtually every ride line we were in was scuttled because the ride broke down -- HM, Soarin', the DCA coaster, Indy, RSR, Thunder Mountain...it was just insane. We thought we were just unlucky, but I've seen a lot of threads around lately about unforeseen ride closures. It made the park feel super crowded because nobody had anything to do. Wondered if you experienced anything like that, too.

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                              • #55
                                It's time to eliminate outside strollers and require people to only rent the DL strollers. People will complain that it's a blatant cash grab, but the stroller parking expands into walkways and the herculean strollers are unnecessary. Maybe parents will reconsider how necessary it is for their kids to be in strollers at all if they're forced to let their kids stand and walk around all day.

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                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by amyuilani View Post
                                  It's time to eliminate outside strollers and require people to only rent the DL strollers. People will complain that it's a blatant cash grab, but the stroller parking expands into walkways and the herculean strollers are unnecessary. Maybe parents will reconsider how necessary it is for their kids to be in strollers at all if they're forced to let their kids stand and walk around all day.
                                  There is only one problem with this, Disney does not have to space to be able to provide strollers for that many families. There are days as is that they will run out and this leads to an already current problem where families start to steal other strollers.

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                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by amyuilani View Post
                                    It's time to eliminate outside strollers and require people to only rent the DL strollers. People will complain that it's a blatant cash grab, but the stroller parking expands into walkways and the herculean strollers are unnecessary. Maybe parents will reconsider how necessary it is for their kids to be in strollers at all if they're forced to let their kids stand and walk around all day.
                                    They did this in the early days. They were just the slim umbrella-style -- not designed to haul gear. Everybody managed.

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                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by Donald1980 View Post

                                      There is only one problem with this, Disney does not have to space to be able to provide strollers for that many families. There are days as is that they will run out and this leads to an already current problem where families start to steal other strollers.
                                      Well, it's Disney magic. They could have each one programmed and matched with a finder device of some sort. So icky low-down thieves would be thwarted.

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                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by Donald1980 View Post

                                        There is only one problem with this, Disney does not have to space to be able to provide strollers for that many families. There are days as is that they will run out and this leads to an already current problem where families start to steal other strollers.
                                        Then they should do an online reservation system so families can reserve. Families can manage, they just choose not to. They'd probably be surprised when they see what they can do when they don't have a rolling crutch.

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                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Pips View Post

                                          Well, it's Disney magic. They could have each one programmed and matched with a finder device of some sort. So icky low-down thieves would be thwarted.
                                          There will always be unscrupulous folk.

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