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California Screamin is done for

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  • Originally posted by 1LE McQueen View Post

    According to Google Definition, Originality - The ability to think independently and creatively / the quality of being novel or unusual. Naturally I think of Matterhorn, Indiana Jones Adventure, Splash Mountain, Big Thunder, Space Mountain, and a few others.

    Also, Christopher Nolan is Original, Elon Musk with Tesla, The Last of Us (Video game), Mystic Manor, Toy Story.. I can go on and on. Originality is not hard to come by, it just depends on where you look.

    The only real disaster I can think of was Rocket Rods; Disney playing it safe isn't their specialty. So long as there is imagination in this world, the biggest things are yet to come. But those things are hard to come by when it's "okay let's just put Marvel here and Pixar there", topped with budget cuts left and right.
    Thank you for your examples. I agree that there are some great creative thinkers, even thought not all of your list includes original works (Toy Story is a great take on Butch & Sundance). Still, you did bring up some of our generation's best, and unfortunately they're probably too expensive for Disney to contract with for original content today. But who knows, there are others out there, and hopefully Disney can find them soon.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by amyuilani View Post

      (Below: Not you specifically, but you the audience.)

      It seems to me that the only changes that will satisfy this audience are great, huge, massive, E-ticket changes. Well, you're about to get those, but you're still complaining. This is an audience that will never be satisfied and an audience who loves the sound of their own complaints. You can use the term "mediocre" to describe changes, but that is a subjective opinion, not a fact, despite how many people share in it. You do know that there are many, many people who don't share that opinion, or don't find the quality of their experience lessened because someone decided to chide a change, right?

      The fanbase has spent years complaining about a "mediocre" DCA, and a stale and stagnant Disneyland. Well you got what you asked for and got some changes. Yet it's not the changes you want. More so, you don't know what you want, you just think you'll know it when you see it because you haven't seen it yet. Yet you're not putting your money where your mouth is because the parks are still packed every day.

      And the more people want to insult Chapek or the work he puts out, the more their voices get ignored because name-calling, insulting, and complaining stop giving the voice any value. It's just a kid whining at that point, and people get skilled at tuning out the kid's whine.
      Because some people might end up complaining about the upcoming "great, huge, massive, E-ticket" attractions that will be part of Star Wars Galaxy's Edge is kind of irrelevant to how it's perceived by Disney Guests in general. We both know that opening month of SW:GE will be as crazy busy as Disneyland has ever been in 60+ years, the few people posting complaints will be but a few drops in an ocean of positivity. In short, it will be a massive critical and financial success. It will be changes done to the absolute best of Disney's abilities. That's PRE-Chapek. Now post-Chapek......

      So far all I'm seeing is Universal Studios-like changes. That's not opinion, it's just reality. It's Back to the Future: The Ride changed to The Simpson's Ride. Same ride, just re-themes.

      Do you really believe quality is just a subjective opinion? If they had put an Indiana Jones Mine Cart spinner in Adventureland in 1995 are you of the opinion that it would be at the same level of quality as Indiana Jones Adventure? Quality is going above and beyond by a person or people that are very good at what they do, that's a quantifiable thing.

      I'm not really seeing these "insults" you're saying are being directed at Bob Chapek. I'm seeing people complaining about his work, which is absolutely what we should be doing as Guests of Disneyland Resort. If I get a filet mignon and it's broiled way overdone and served slathered in ketchup I wouldn't call the chef any names, but I sure would say his steak was terrible. And I absolutely disagree that the complaining has no effect, it certainly does. Disney is most definitely not "tuning out" negative criticism, they do whatever they can appease Guests. DCA 1.0 is a perfect example, they did a very mediocre job with that park, Guests and critics were very vocal about their disappointment, Disney spends a billion+ dollars to try and improve it.

      Comment


      • Personally, I wish they'd just demo everything around the Pier except for Little Mermaid and Toy Story. Everything else over there (besides the Paradise Garden area) is super cheap-looking DCA 1.0. It's not "Disney." But, since it's all staying, I would much prefer some kind of a re-theme over the current "theme" (I put "theme" in quotes because lets be honest......there ain't one). Hopefully they can pull something off that doesn't feel cheap. I don't have high hopes for that, and I'm pretty bugged that they're putting in yet ANOTHER spinner ride. Although I'm not sure what else they would use that empty sand helix for besides a small spinner-type ride. I guess they could use it as a queue for another dark ride and build the show building outside the perimeter of Screamin' (assuming that's even possible).

        I am excited to hear what they will eventually build over by Maliboomer Park. It'll be interesting to see how this area progress (or digresses) over time. But yeah, I've always hated Paradise Pier. It's never felt "Disney" to me. It's always felt cheap. And with real estate being what it is, I wish they'd demo the whole land and start over with something that's done right the first time.
        sigpic
        "It's fun to do the impossible." ~Walt Disney

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Disney Adventure View Post

          Because some people might end up complaining about the upcoming "great, huge, massive, E-ticket" attractions that will be part of Star Wars Galaxy's Edge is kind of irrelevant to how it's perceived by Disney Guests in general. We both know that opening month of SW:GE will be as crazy busy as Disneyland has ever been in 60+ years, the few people posting complaints will be but a few drops in an ocean of positivity. In short, it will be a massive critical and financial success. It will be changes done to the absolute best of Disney's abilities. That's PRE-Chapek. Now post-Chapek......
          Fair enough.


          Originally posted by Disney Adventure View Post
          Do you really believe quality is just a subjective opinion?
          Yes. Quality is an opinion. There is nothing that says that a ride must have a certain number of bells and whistles, must realign your spine a certain percentage, or must meet a minimum wait time of X minutes to be quality. You can ask random samples of people if they think something is quality, and they'll all give you different answers. That's what an opinion is. Concurring opinions don't become facts. If anything, they may become warning bells.

          For example, Rocket Rods to me was not a quality ride at all. The single-seat vehicles were weird and I didn't like that wide open space that made me feel unsecured on turns. The vehicles had an odd number of seats, which virtually guaranteed larger parties would be split or some seats would be empty. (I don't think they had a single rider option then.) It wasn't very thrilling because every time a turn came up, it would slow down. To me, it never justified the wait time. Yet you can easily find people who do think it was a quality ride. Heck, you'll find people who wish it was still around. That doesn't make either of us right or wrong, it means we have different opinions and different standards of quality.

          Originally posted by Disney Adventure View Post
          Quality is going above and beyond by a person or people that are very good at what they do, that's a quantifiable thing.
          Are you suggesting Chapek isn't good at what he does? Because he's still leaps and bounds better than a lot of people in the industry. He didn't fall into that role by being some executive's nephew. He is conceptualizing and realizing the kinds of things many of us could never dream of, and he is striking a chord with the audience. Maybe not this audience, who has already developed quite a bias against him, but a lot of paying customers.

          Originally posted by Disney Adventure View Post
          I'm not really seeing these "insults" you're saying are being directed at Bob Chapek. I'm seeing people complaining about his work, which is absolutely what we should be doing as Guests of Disneyland Resort.
          Read back through the dozens of threads over the last year that discuss changes under Chapek, especially the ones that came out when GOTG was announced. If people said the things they said about him to other users here, they'd be banned. But people thought it was okay to insult him because he wasn't around to defend himself. Unfortunately, it created a reputation in other Disneyland communities online that these forums have become negative and toxic. It's a shame, really, because there have been some good conversations when there isn't a target for mud slinging (APs or executives).

          Originally posted by Disney Adventure View Post
          Disney is most definitely not "tuning out" negative criticism, they do whatever they can appease Guests. DCA 1.0 is a perfect example, they did a very mediocre job with that park, Guests and critics were very vocal about their disappointment, Disney spends a billion+ dollars to try and improve it.
          I agree, and I hope that never stops. Every attraction will have its day, including our most beloved attractions and the classics. That's the downside of improvements.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by VintageMouse View Post

            OK, I'm with you on #1. But appetite for risk depends on several factors, at lease one of which I've mentioned. I don't agree with #2. Sorry. It just doesn't "smell right" to me. There's a great, big, beautiful cosmos around us. Plenty of stories yet untold ('m paraphrasing Gene Roddenberry here). This shouldn't be a stumbling block for any company as large and powerful as Disney. It just shouldn't.
            Disney does take risks. See Shanghai Disneyland. See the purchase of the Star Wars IP.

            Disney still has original ideas. See WALL-E and Up.

            The things you mention aren't stumbling blocks at all.



            Comment


            • Originally posted by DL714 View Post
              Disney does take risks. See Shanghai Disneyland. See the purchase of the Star Wars IP.
              Disney didn't take the risk for Shanghai Disney Resort, the majority owner Shanghai Shendi Group did. Disney didn't take a risk with Star Wars -- it's the most pre-sold, risk-free IP on the planet.


              Originally posted by DL714 View Post
              Disney still has original ideas. See WALL-E and Up.
              Disney management had nothing to do with the creation of WALL-E and Up. Those came from the creative minds at Pixar. The fact that Disney owns Pixar as a business entity has nothing to do with the films created by Pixar -- quite the opposite, in fact; Ed insisted on a strict "hands off" policy before the deal was signed.
              "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
              Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
              imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

              - Neil Gabler

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
                Disney didn't take the risk for Shanghai Disney Resort, the majority owner Shanghai Shendi Group did. Disney didn't take a risk with Star Wars -- it's the most pre-sold, risk-free IP on the planet.

                Disney management had nothing to do with the creation of WALL-E and Up. Those came from the creative minds at Pixar. The fact that Disney owns Pixar as a business entity has nothing to do with the films created by Pixar -- quite the opposite, in fact; Ed insisted on a strict "hands off" policy before the deal was signed.
                Disney owns 43% of the joint venture and 70 percent of the operating company. Its share in the JV alone amounts to $2.4 Billion. Yeah, no risk there! Companies spend that kind of money all the time, without a care in the world.

                What is even more disingenuous is that even you declared that it was a risk for Disney. Remember you predicted that Wanda would run Disney out of town. How did that turn out?

                Disney took a risk. Wanda capitulated. Disney's risk is paying off.

                ... There were Wall Street analysts who questioned the acquisition itself or the price. Look it up. One thing is for sure. If Disney had failed, it would have become the subject of another diatribe.

                ... Whether Disney has direct creative control or not is a distinction without a difference. Disney owns Pixar. The creative minds at Pixar work for the Disney Company.

                So, who should get credit for that? Comcast/NBC Universal? Just absurd.



                Comment


                • Originally posted by amyuilani View Post

                  Fair enough.




                  Yes. Quality is an opinion. There is nothing that says that a ride must have a certain number of bells and whistles, must realign your spine a certain percentage, or must meet a minimum wait time of X minutes to be quality. You can ask random samples of people if they think something is quality, and they'll all give you different answers. That's what an opinion is. Concurring opinions don't become facts. If anything, they may become warning bells.

                  For example, Rocket Rods to me was not a quality ride at all. The single-seat vehicles were weird and I didn't like that wide open space that made me feel unsecured on turns. The vehicles had an odd number of seats, which virtually guaranteed larger parties would be split or some seats would be empty. (I don't think they had a single rider option then.) It wasn't very thrilling because every time a turn came up, it would slow down. To me, it never justified the wait time. Yet you can easily find people who do think it was a quality ride. Heck, you'll find people who wish it was still around. That doesn't make either of us right or wrong, it means we have different opinions and different standards of quality.



                  Are you suggesting Chapek isn't good at what he does? Because he's still leaps and bounds better than a lot of people in the industry. He didn't fall into that role by being some executive's nephew. He is conceptualizing and realizing the kinds of things many of us could never dream of, and he is striking a chord with the audience. Maybe not this audience, who has already developed quite a bias against him, but a lot of paying customers.



                  Read back through the dozens of threads over the last year that discuss changes under Chapek, especially the ones that came out when GOTG was announced. If people said the things they said about him to other users here, they'd be banned. But people thought it was okay to insult him because he wasn't around to defend himself. Unfortunately, it created a reputation in other Disneyland communities online that these forums have become negative and toxic. It's a shame, really, because there have been some good conversations when there isn't a target for mud slinging (APs or executives).



                  I agree, and I hope that never stops. Every attraction will have its day, including our most beloved attractions and the classics. That's the downside of improvements.
                  I guess I'm just not on board with the ---because there are some people who do like something then it can be considered quality--- mindset. You can find people who like anything. There are people who like Tommy Wiseau's THE ROOM better than Francis Ford Coppola's THE GODFATHER, but that doesn't mean it's a quality film. In fact, it's a pretty strong contender for worst film ever made. If quality were arbitrary then Disneyland couldn't charge more for admission than Silverwood Theme Park, but they can charge more (and they get it) because they're offering a higher quality experience.

                  I am not suggesting Chapek isn't good at his job, based on what we've seen of his work I am saying it outright. He's a consumer products expert and I have no doubt he's amazing at that. But squeezing every last dime from every possible part of the parks and merely re-theming existing attractions to the new movies that Disney has opening is not what's best for the parks or the Guests, it's what's best for the executives and the bottom line. Eventually that falls flat and wears thin, eventually the parks will need to be re-invigorated with creativity and originality again and not just be full of commercials for the next movie release.

                  I'm just not seeing the name calling. I've been here since before Chapek was put in charge of the parks and I don't recall any kind of personal attacks or insults towards him at all. That kind of stuff isn't tolerated around here anyway. Some of those TZToT threads had hundreds and hundreds of posts and what I kept seeing repeatedly was an extreme distaste for his work, but nothing about the man himself. But his work? So far? It's awful. Hopefully this era for Disneyland Resort doesn't last long.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Disney Adventure View Post
                    I guess I'm just not on board with the ---because there are some people who do like something then it can be considered quality--- mindset. You can find people who like anything.

                    I haven't quite been following along... are you saying this regarding people who like Screamin as it is today, or people who would like it with an Incredibles overlay? I really can't tell.


                    I am not suggesting Chapek isn't good at his job, based on what we've seen of his work I am saying it outright. He's a consumer products expert and I have no doubt he's amazing at that. But squeezing every last dime from every possible part of the parks and merely re-theming existing attractions to the new movies that Disney has opening is not what's best for the parks or the Guests
                    The guests seem to think otherwise.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Disney Adventure View Post
                      I guess I'm just not on board with the ---because there are some people who do like something then it can be considered quality--- mindset.
                      I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, "the attendance/financial numbers prove Disney is doing it right" is a common defense against criticism of Disney mediocrity. It's a defense which insists that Disney's success with consumers automatically disproves claims of declining quality -- indeed, that consumer spending is the only measure of quality.


                      Originally posted by Disney Adventure View Post
                      I'm just not seeing the name calling. I've been here since before Chapek was put in charge of the parks and I don't recall any kind of personal attacks or insults towards him at all. That kind of stuff isn't tolerated around here anyway. Some of those TZToT threads had hundreds and hundreds of posts and what I kept seeing repeatedly was an extreme distaste for his work, but nothing about the man himself.
                      Over the years there have been many posts in this forum that name-call on Disney executives. Per the site's administration and staff, such criticism of Disney executives is allowed on MiceChat (within certain bounds of civility and legality) -- Disney executives are public figures. Namecalling of one member to another, however, is not allowed. The difference between the two is often ignored -- personal attacks on fans who level personal criticism at Disney executives is one of the oldest forms of bashing Disney's critics, going back to the attacks on Al Lutz and his earliest a.d.d. posts criticizing Paul Pressler.


                      Originally posted by Disney Adventure View Post
                      But his work? So far? It's awful. Hopefully this era for Disneyland Resort doesn't last long.
                      Sadly, Disney's top management views Chapek quite differently: his experience as a brand marketing guru is a perfect fit for their philosophy of DLR and WDW as brand marketing platforms. Iger gave Chapek the keys to Walt's Magic Kingdoms in a similar manner, and for many of the same reasons, that Eisner did with Pressler. Barring some unforseen financial misstep that can be attributed to Chapek, he will continue operating with the enthusiastic approval of the Company, the Board, and the overwhelming majority of fans.
                      "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
                      Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
                      imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

                      - Neil Gabler

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by MrLiver View Post


                        I haven't quite been following along... are you saying this regarding people who like Screamin as it is today, or people who would like it with an Incredibles overlay? I really can't tell.




                        The guests seem to think otherwise.
                        I was just replying in general terms of quality. But as far as California Screamin' to The Incredibles.......it might be a really awesome overlay, but it's still just an overlay. It's not exactly Disney letting Imagineering swing for the fences.

                        The Guests seem to think otherwise.......for now. Because there is still a LOT of original and amazing attractions at the DLR. Let's see if Guests opinions change if all we get is current E-tickets getting re-themed to Disney's big summer and holiday movie releases over the next decade or two.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Disney Adventure View Post
                          I was just replying in general terms of quality. But as far as California Screamin' to The Incredibles.......it might be a really awesome overlay, but it's still just an overlay. It's not exactly Disney letting Imagineering swing for the fences.
                          I wouldn't expect, nor would I want, for them to "swing for the fences" at every single at bat. It's not a good strategy for the guests, for the company, and for the investors. Overlays are needed to extend the value of an attraction beyond it's normal life span. Without a way of changing attractions and generating more interest, you would see a lot more churn in your attraction roster, as attractions would just need to be torn down and completely rebuilt every time their visitor counts drop below an acceptable level.


                          The Guests seem to think otherwise.......for now. Because there is still a LOT of original and amazing attractions at the DLR. Let's see if Guests opinions change if all we get is current E-tickets getting re-themed to Disney's big summer and holiday movie releases over the next decade or two.
                          Since we already have two new, original attractions opening at Disneyland in 2019, we won't get to test your hypothesis.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MrLiver View Post

                            I wouldn't expect, nor would I want, for them to "swing for the fences" at every single at bat. It's not a good strategy for the guests, for the company, and for the investors. Overlays are needed to extend the value of an attraction beyond it's normal life span.
                            Are you suggesting that California Screamin' is losing attendance?

                            I cannot imagine that assertion being true. Roller coasters are always popular with, at least, some segment of the population, and D.C.A. has nothing similar to this attraction.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by MrLiver View Post

                              Without a way of changing attractions and generating more interest, you would see a lot more churn in your attraction roster, as attractions would just need to be torn down and completely rebuilt every time their visitor counts drop below an acceptable level.
                              Mr. Disney solved this problem in 1955 with pay-per-play options, such as the original "A"-"E" ticket system.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by PragmaticIdealist View Post
                                Are you suggesting that California Screamin' is losing attendance?
                                An attraction's value is not weighed in attendance alone.

                                Comment

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