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  • #21
    Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

    Originally posted by ALIASd View Post
    Perhaps its not the AAs but the ADD.

    While many of us did and do love the beauty of the AAs, and would love to see more classic, new and improved versions, perhaps the "newer" and not necessarily-improved audiences of today aren't as capable of simply enjoying them for what they are.

    The world of gaming modified for theme parks would certainly seem to be an easier, faster and immediately gratifying pleasure over an historical attraction with "The Battle Hymm of The Republic" in its soundtrack.
    I agree that audience expectation and sophistication has changed; and certainly adjustments must be made to entertain, but the stamina and longevity of the Tiki Room gives me hope for the future of AA shows.

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    • #22
      Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

      Originally posted by The Red Head View Post
      I don't know if Disney as a whole is getting away from the AA show, or just Disneyland. WDW still has Country Bear Jamboree. They also have the Hall of Presidents and at Epcot they have the American Adventure. So Disney has not closed down as many AA shows at Disney World as they have at Disneyland.
      I agree, and like I said in my OP, I notice this phenomenon as a Disneyland trend. The pressure to deliver on a BIG stage like Disneyland is hard to work under, I imagine. DCA and other parks may be 'safer' territory.

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      • #23
        Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

        I think one need look no further than the reception of the new Pirate's AA's to see they are still a crowd pleaser. I guess their apparent resemblance of a certain actor may have something to do with it, but people are AMAZED at how much it really does look like him.

        I think a show using the newest generation of AA's would be a hit. But it would have to be something timeless like the (original) Tiki Room for it to really work.

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        • #24
          Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

          Well the AA's should be as uncreepy as possible. No one wants one that looks or acts like a reanimated corpse. Hiding the animtronic parts would be ideal as well as fluid motion of the animtronic, properly synched soundtracks, realistic range of movement. No Chuck-e-cheese robots. You know Lincoln or Auctioneer quality and range of motion.
          There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
          -Dr. Strange

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          • #25
            Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

            Originally posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
            If you think, however, that AA shows are dinosaurs, and have no place or real audience in the modern DL, why do you feel their appeal has dwindled in more recent times?
            Their appeal hasn't dwindled - it was very limited to begin with. Two of the best loved fan attractions, Country Bears and America Sings both ran into problems shortly after opening.

            Theater shows suffer the same problem as film based attractions - no matter how good they are at first, their repeatability is very minimal. The difference though is, with an AA theater show, after the crowds leave you're stuck with an investment of several million dollars and a massive maintenance budget to keep the attraction open.

            Now it's possible that you could find a venue like WDW where repeatability is less of a factor for your AA show, but I doubt very much it would last longer than 5 years here at Disneyland.

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            • #26
              Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

              Originally posted by MrLiver View Post
              .

              Theater shows suffer the same problem as film based attractions - no matter how good they are at first, their repeatability is very minimal. The difference though is, with an AA theater show, after the crowds leave you're stuck with an investment of several million dollars and a massive maintenance budget to keep the attraction open.
              As far as 'massive' maintenance costs go, you are in no different boat as compared to a non-theatre-style attraction. In fact, with no vehicle ride system to repair of refurb, you are in better shape in relation to 'massive' maintenance costs.
              You are right that theatre AA shows are certainly more of a gamble. But when we look at non-thrill rides like POTC, HM, and JC, we see much repeatability in attractions that are really 'moving' theatre AA shows. The non-thrill component of these attractions points to the AA scenes themselves as the main 'selling point'. Don't underestimate the power of a well-executed AA production. (The Enchanted Tiki Room is still a well-attended attraction, though not as popular as when it was 'state-of-the-art', I'm sure).

              What changes should be made to AA shows, then, to help fuel interest?

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              • #27
                Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

                I like your interview idea, fo'c's'le! That could go into a lot of places, like the backlot at California Adventure (millionaire building?) or (God forbid) the opera house. Toontown would be a nice place for it too. I know I'd love to have incentive to actually walk back there more than once a year.

                ...Though... maybe that would be a better fit with the new costume technology? Like with that new goofy? I could see them going that way with this idea. It would be a controlled area to both take that to the next level and experiement a bit before the final phase - putting this technology into wandering meet and greet characters.

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                • #28
                  Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

                  Originally posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
                  What changes should be made to AA shows, then, to help fuel interest?
                  Lasers and explosions. Always.

                  Actually I think the answer is interaction. Talking with the AAs, 'attacking' the audience, basically making it more immersive and less of a good place to take a nap. I love tiki room, but usually sit in the back and doze a bit on those nice benches. I then wake up to boogey with the totems near the end. I like their lazy eyes.

                  Oh my, two posts in a row. That's embarassing.

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                  • #29
                    Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

                    Originally posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
                    As far as 'massive' maintenance costs go, you are in no different boat as compared to a non-theatre-style attraction. In fact, with no vehicle ride system to repair of refurb, you are in better shape in relation to 'massive' maintenance costs.
                    There's a big difference between using a wrench and tightening bolts on a ride vehicle, and having the skills of a pneumatic/hydraulic technician to keep an Audio-Animatronic running.

                    If a ride vehicle malfunctions, it's a simple matter of swapping out that vehicle for another one that works. If an AA breaks, you have to have pneumatic, electrical and computer technicians all at hand to repair them.

                    The AA technology is incredibly expensive - it's the reason why Disney is still pretty much the only company that uses it.

                    You are right that theatre AA shows are certainly more of a gamble. But when we look at non-thrill rides like POTC, HM, and JC, we see much repeatability in attractions that are really 'moving' theatre AA shows.
                    In those situations the AAs are there to compliment the show - they are not the focus of it. You have to build an attraction that has intricate environments and details without the AAs if you want a successful attraction.

                    If you put a bunch of AAs on a stage and expect people to watch them for 20 minutes, you are creating a show that would eventually get stale and close.

                    What changes should be made to AA shows, then, to help fuel interest?
                    Not using them to create a show. Use AAs in complimentary ways, such as Tom Morrow in Innoventions or Hopper in Bugs.

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                    • #30
                      Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

                      I find the carrousel theatre to be the best implementation of the AA show as far as footprint goes. It's a singular size, rather than something as supremely massive as the Great Movie Ride.
                      THat said, AA shows should be changable per season. Imagine, for instance, Plectu's Intergalactic Revue (abandoned concept of Tomorrowland 55). You have these aliens who are putting on a show to raise money to fix their ship. But as they do it, they try to change their show for the holidays to try and bring in more business. That said, you have general costume changes, and a new program turned on, and voila! You have a holiday show. (It's not as elaborate as the HM or IASW)
                      So then you have Plectu's normal show, which runs most of the year, then the halloween show, where they attempt to be spooky (runs Sep-Oct), the Holiday show, trying to bring in the magic of the holidays.
                      Perhaps you could have a vacation show for certain seasons.
                      ANyways yeah, it'd need to be easy to make different versions to experience during each season.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

                        Originally posted by Coheteboy View Post
                        Wait... where's the AA in 'honey'?
                        I was pointing more to screen/live interaction, mainly the host podium blowing up etc... not really an AA but it is an interactive show effect timed to the movie just like Startours or Muppets.

                        Swab, as to the talkshow all I could picture is an audience full of less then desirable people screaming Jerry Jerry Jerry!
                        "Happiness is a Low Water Level"

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                        • #32
                          Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

                          Originally posted by MrLiver View Post
                          There's a big difference between using a wrench and tightening bolts on a ride vehicle, and having the skills of a pneumatic/hydraulic technician to keep an Audio-Animatronic running.

                          If a ride vehicle malfunctions, it's a simple matter of swapping out that vehicle for another one that works. If an AA breaks, you have to have pneumatic, electrical and computer technicians all at hand to repair them.

                          The AA technology is incredibly expensive - it's the reason why Disney is still pretty much the only company that uses it.
                          Since 'vehicle' attractions also have AA 'repair' costs, it would be logical to assume that by eliminating the delivery system, some costs will be saved (is a wrench really the only tool you'd need? Wow, they look much more complicated than that!).

                          Since, clearly, neither of us knows which is more costly to maintain, it is pointless to bring up costs at all; let alone speculate which is more 'cost effective'. Which leaves us with the entertainment factor:


                          In those situations the AAs are there to compliment the show - they are not the focus of it. You have to build an attraction that has intricate environments and details without the AAs if you want a successful attraction.
                          So without the POTC HM and JC AAs, the rides would be popular and repeatable? I don't think so, Liver, and I doubt you really do either.The AAs ARE the attraction. Riding in a black bubble or a soggy boat without benefit of AAs would be quite an attraction indeed--and you think AA shows have little Guest interest?!
                          If you put a bunch of AAs on a stage and expect people to watch them for 20 minutes, you are creating a show that would eventually get stale and close.
                          Herein lies, possibly, a failing in some AA shows: too long a running time, and little room for program 'adjustment'. The formula for the Tiki Room seems to still work. I don't think mere 'nostalgia' accounts for its longevity. Creativity and an entertaining production has more to do with its continuing existence today than does 'respect for Walt'.


                          Not using them to create a show. Use AAs in complimentary ways, such as Tom Morrow in Innoventions or Hopper in Bugs
                          If you don't think people will sit still for an AA driven show (which they clearly do), why do you think they will enjoy staring at a screen for 'twenty minutes'?

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                          • #33
                            Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

                            Originally posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
                            Cool ideas so far, and the HISTA theatre would be a likely location--a 'Robotic' theme lends itself nicely to AA design.

                            I have been thinking about an AA show featuring Disney animated characters. If any of you have seen the A&E program 'Inside the Actor's Studio', you may have a good idea where I am going with this.

                            The show is a small-capacity room with a changeable 'panel' of Disney stars to be 'group interviewed' by a human host (who may her/himself be a face character, i.e. Alice, Cruella, Mary Poppins, etc.)

                            I see the characters on a dais, seated. Possibly three or four daises created (but only one visible per show) all having a unique set of 8-10 Disney stars (allowing the show a little room for 'repeatability'--different day/time, diffeent dais).

                            A sample group may include:




                            The open forum could include song, conversation, showing 'clips' of Disney scenes. Even possibly have an interactive portion using a 'Turtle Talk' format.

                            This tongue-in-cheek look at Disney Toons would, of course, be located in ToonTown, adding life to a pretty dead, non-engaging area.
                            I REALLY like this idea! How cool would that be to have this? Wow! I sure hope someone from Disney sees this thread!
                            susabelle

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                            • #34
                              Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

                              Originally posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
                              If you don't think people will sit still for an AA driven show (which they clearly do), why do you think they will enjoy staring at a screen for 'twenty minutes'?
                              They don't. But it's still cheaper to do film attractions that can be swapped out every few years than an AA show.

                              Yes people still like Pirates and Mansion, but other AA shows, particularly the ones at Epcot, are long gone. Obviously Pirates and Mansion have something that World of Motion and Carousel of Progress and America Sings did not.

                              Tiki Room is still there, but Country Bears and Lincoln are not - what's the difference between them?

                              I'd say that nostalgia is playing a bigger factor here than you want to admit. It's the same reason why fans are able to enjoy Mr. Toad, but complain endlessly about Pooh.

                              Consider if you will that Tiki experienced a surge in interest after Country Bears and Lincoln had been closed. Maybe there's only room for one AA show in a park.

                              As for your interview idea - it's pretty clever but I honestly don't see why it couldn't be done with video and CGI instead. It would be cheaper to maintain and upgrade over time.

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                              • #35
                                Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

                                Originally posted by techskip View Post
                                Swab, as to the talkshow all I could picture is an audience full of less then desirable people screaming Jerry Jerry Jerry!
                                Maybe we are all wasting our time with these AA shows; just put in a "Wrestle Your Favorite Disney Character" attraction: the ultimate interactive Disney entertainment.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

                                  Originally posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
                                  Can and should it be saved? With the closure of America Sings and the Country Bear Jamboree (after respectable runs), and Disney's apparent reluctance to bring Back the Lincoln AA show, one would tend to believe Disneyland is shying away from the AA show as an attraction.





                                  With the Enchanted Tiki Room still going strong we see that an enduring theatre AA show certainly can be created, and has an audience, if not actual fans, among DL Guests.



                                  If you believe that AA shows have a place in DL's future, what are some good AA show concepts? What can we learn from the liabilities of past AA theatre attractions?

                                  If you think, however, that AA shows are dinosaurs, and have no place or real audience in the modern DL, why do you feel their appeal has dwindled in more recent times?


                                  I have an idea for an AA show which I will share later, after seeing some of your thoughful opinions and ideas.
                                  There are two forces at work at Disneyland, the original amazing rapid creative ideas of Walt Disney up till 66-68, and the what do we do now that isnt expensive attitued that followed.

                                  At the end Disney loved AA's so much and he mistrusted a persons ability to provide a high quality consistant performance that I beleive he would have eventually replaced eveyone one and thing with an AA if he could :-) I am sure that we would have seen the final days trend of big AA adventures like Pirates and the Mansion continue and we would have had long ago walking talking autonomous AA or AAA's ala Westworld sort of scenario (minus the killer robots that is). :-)

                                  Quite simply AA's are too expensive to build and maintain, Disney would now rather build a thrill ride like a coaster or simulator that only a narrow age group of healthy people can ride and even then it often kills or maims people! Or the painted plywood type of attraction they seem to love these days..... I have talked to actual people who currently work in attraction development and they said it wont happen its too expensive and they consider too risky...

                                  Think about there has not been a single new attraction/ride that comes any where near to what he acheived over 40 yrs ago since pirates or mansion! Only america sings from the 70's comes close and that replaced a better AA atraction the carousel of progress or epcot's Horizons which I felt was the only thing ever at epcot that truly emodied its concept of life in the future only to be bulldozed and replaced with the mission space killing machine thrill ride that only a limited section of guests can ride on only because they lost their sponsor for Horizons and found a new one HP for MS.

                                  "This would be a great place if we could only get rid of all these people." - Walt Disney

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                                  • #37
                                    Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

                                    Originally posted by MrLiver View Post
                                    They don't. But it's still cheaper to do film attractions that can be swapped out every few years than an AA show.
                                    I agree, but I think AAs have an appeal that the blank flat screen doesn't. If one is to assume that a show will lose its popularity in say 5-8 years; then yes, it makes more sense (financially for sure) to go with a cheaper 'movie' attraction. But you can't always tell...which leads us to:


                                    Tiki Room is still there, but Country Bears and Lincoln are not - what's the difference between them?

                                    I'd say that nostalgia is playing a bigger factor here than you want to admit.
                                    Could be, and it is possible that CBJ and Lincoln were nudged out due to 'oversaturation' of AA shows. But I think that a pure AA show has a 'leg up' on the theatre shows we see now (HISTA, Muppets, Golden Dreams, the Opera House presentation). They have the potential to be classics that 'movies' don't enjoy, IMO
                                    As for your interview idea - it's pretty clever but I honestly don't see why it couldn't be done with video and CGI instead. It would be cheaper to maintain and upgrade over time
                                    True, cheaper in the short term. But what if it becomes an icon? What if it endures past all initial speculation (not necessarily MY particular idea, but any AA show production). The dividends it pays could be well worth the investment.

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                                    • #38
                                      Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

                                      People want to have an emotional response...

                                      being impressed and awestruck are important ones

                                      In the early days AAs were impressive because you never saw a non-human do these kinds of things except in animation or stop animation. Now a days, people are accustomed to special effects OUTSIDE of 2d animation or jumpy stop animation with bad compositing. People are accustomed to seeing life-like reenactments WITHOUT it being real. So that alone is not a draw - its expected.

                                      Shows like Lincoln and the American Adventure add to the mix that they strike you because these are never people you would see in real life.. and now you get something that mimicks it.

                                      So I think the characters themselves you are portraying goes a long way to what makes or breaks the success.

                                      Additionally scale is a huge part of it. Something like the tiki room is a huge scale because EVERYTHING gets into it.. the walls.. the windows.. etc. POTC is about scale and immersion more then it is 'impressive AA movement'. Its about putting you into the scene. I don't think its the AAs at all that necessarily the kingpin of the attraction. It's the scale and immersion.. the AAs are there to SUPPORT that effect.

                                      Where AAs faulter is when you put someone
                                      - too close to them (so they hear them clanky around)
                                      - you stare at the same thing too long and the AA is in a loop you notice
                                      - the show is meant to be about the AA technology

                                      I think the Indiana Jones character in the Indy ride is a great example of where the AA technology works in all degrees because its
                                      - realistic looking at the viewer's distance
                                      - AA is in a full size set where the guests are immersed in that scene in all directions
                                      - you don't see the AA long enough to notice the BAD traits
                                      - AAs in human interaction scenes (like hanging from the rope)

                                      Again I think its where AAs are SUPPORTING the show, not are the show. Example, a mission control room with a bunch of AAs working the consoles would be great if the guests don't sit in that scene too long and from a distance the characters look real.

                                      At the other end of the spectrum you take something like the American Adventure or Hall of Presidents - I don't think these types of shows would work anymore if it WASN'T for the topic of history sparking the emotions.

                                      So to sum up... if you were to make a theatre show based on AAs and 'new' characters I think it wouldn't last. Without supporting emotions, the AAs are not draw enough.
                                      Check out my blog - Coreplex: Rambling from inside the Grid


                                      Am I evil? yes, I am
                                      Am I evil? I am man, yes, I am

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                                      Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

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                                      • #39
                                        Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

                                        Originally posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
                                        Can and should it be saved? With the closure of America Sings and the Country Bear Jamboree (after respectable runs), and Disney's apparent reluctance to bring Back the Lincoln AA show, one would tend to believe Disneyland is shying away from the AA show as an attraction.





                                        With the Enchanted Tiki Room still going strong we see that an enduring theatre AA show certainly can be created, and has an audience, if not actual fans, among DL Guests.



                                        If you believe that AA shows have a place in DL's future, what are some good AA show concepts? What can we learn from the liabilities of past AA theatre attractions?

                                        If you think, however, that AA shows are dinosaurs, and have no place or real audience in the modern DL, why do you feel their appeal has dwindled in more recent times?


                                        I have an idea for an AA show which I will share later, after seeing some of your thoughful opinions and ideas.
                                        It doesnt really matter anyways AIA's (Artificial Intelegent Androids) will become sentient in the next 25 yrs and they will be smarter, faster, stronger and better than humans who will either become pets or extinct so like I said it doesnt really matter either way lol :-)

                                        "This would be a great place if we could only get rid of all these people." - Walt Disney

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                                        "Whenever I go on a ride, I'm always thinking of what's wrong with the thing and how it can be improved."














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                                        • #40
                                          Re: The Revival of the AA Theatre-Style Attraction

                                          Originally posted by GothicManor View Post
                                          It doesnt really matter anyways AIA's (Artificial Intelegent Androids) will become sentient in the next 25 yrs and they will be smarter, faster, stronger and better than humans who will either become pets or extinct so like I said it doesnt really matter either way lol :-)
                                          But can they beat the Apes? I dunno...

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