Announcement

Collapse
1 of 2 < >

MiceChat Rules

A list of MiceChat's rules can be found at the top of the Disneyland forum.
2 of 2 < >

Ad Blockers

Please do not use ad blocking software when visiting MiceChat. It costs money to keep MiceChat online, and ad revenue offsets this. Thank you.
See more
See less

LA Times: Legionnaires' disease sickens park visitors

Collapse

Ad Widget

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post

    Disneyland's Pressler-era and post-Pressler maintenance being at fault in guest injuries and deaths is a matter of public record.

    Report says maintenance error caused fatal Disneyland accident
    LOS ANGELES (AP) - An accident at Disneyland that killed a man when a roller coaster car derailed was the result of mechanical failure caused by improper maintenance and unclear procedures, according to a state report released Wednesday.
    Because the cast member failed to follow the policy. Not because the policy changed. The actual wording in the accident report states:

    The accident was caused by a mechanical failure, which occurred as the result of omission during a maintenance procedure of two required actions: The left side upstop/guide wheel on the floating axle of the locomotive # 2 was not tightened in accordance with Disneyland Resort specifications for the procedure, and safety wire following tightening of the assembly was not installed.
    โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹There is a big difference between believing that a cast member made a mistake and saying that the policy was changed in such a way as to cause an accident. The maintenance policy wasn't at fault. I think it's fair to say that training was at fault and played a part, but saying that maintenance budget cuts caused the accident is basically unsupported fantasy. No maintenance policy in the world says to do something unsafe.

    The Columbia accident, likewise, was the result of a Cast Member who had been improperly trained, attempting to tie off the boat when it was approaching too fast.

    Back to the cooling towers, there is absolutely no reason to believe that their policy states to do something unsafe, or that it doesn't meet some agreed to standard, as past incidents cited above do not state faulty maintenance policy as being a cause. If Cast Members violate that policy, Disney is still responsible to be sure, but as it's harder to police Cast Members from always violating the policy, it's understandably different than setting an unsafe practice on purpose, which you are accusing them of.

    Comment


    • #47
      Always informative, and entertaining, to watch Wiggins and Liver debate! ๐Ÿ˜‚

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by MrLiver View Post

        I think it's certain that Disney was following a set standard of maintenance for the cooling towers. They found the increase in bacteria mere days after the first cases had manifested, and before the county had actually told them there was an issue.

        It's also important for those who are ready to blame Disney for everything to keep in mind: 3 of the 12 cases are involving individuals who did NOT visit Disneyland. And that 9 out of 12 people in Anaheim, having some contact with Disneyland doesn't seem all that suspect at all - Disneyland is the primary reason people visit Anaheim. Other than the circumstantial connection between the cooling tower and those folks being at Disneyland, there's nothing to immediately link the two of them together. We don't know how many of those individuals were even within the proximity of the cooling tower.

        It's also worth noting that cases of detected Legionella bacteria are generally on the rise county wide. So this is not an incident exclusive only to Disneyland.


        Let the investigation finish before you pull the pitchforks out.
        You know how the irresponsible media works. If this outbreak occurred at some mall or supermarket, it wouldn't even be mentioned on the news. But attach the word "Disneyland" to the news piece, and they know the ratings will go up. They'll talk about a murder or assault that occurred in Anaheim, but it's common to attach "near Disneyland" to the news piece just to get a rise out of the public.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by MrLiver View Post
          The Columbia accident, likewise, was the result of a Cast Member who had been improperly trained, attempting to tie off the boat when it was approaching too fast.
          No, it resulted from the replacement of an expensive hemp rope called for in the design specs that was designed to break with a cheaper nylon rope that was stronger than specifications called for... stronger than the support it was attached to. This establishes a record of a death caused DIRECTLY by cost-cutting in maintenance and a failure to understand the reasons for the design specs in the first place.

          It would be no different if the Matterhorn cars were replaced with cars that have plastic wheels that are cheaper to replace that then fail and someone dies because it was subjected to stress it was never designed to take. The fault would be MAINTENANCE... not the fault of the maintenance CM that followed the replacement schedule for nylon wheels that were called for in the design specs. (or in the case of the Colombia, not the fault of the CM that tied off the ship which even if it WAS going too fast wouldn't have mattered if the rope were the correct one according to the design specifications)

          Facts are facts. The death at the Colombia dock was DIRECTLY tied to cheaping out on maintenance and not adhering to the design specs just to save a few bucks. You can try and sugarcoat it all you want and just blame the CM, but you can't wipe away reality just because it paints TDA in a bad light. They cheaped out on the maintenance and someone died because of it. That in light of this issue with the cooling towers creates a pattern of at least SUSPECTED poor maintenance leading to death or injury that should be scrutinized.

          If TDA had no history of poor maintenance leading to death or injury, it would be different... but they do... so it isn't.
          ---
          Once Upon a Time, in Anaheim... Anaheim, California...

          DLR 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1985, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1992, 1994, 1996, 1999, 2001, 2003, 2008, 2012 & 2013 with 2015 later this year...

          Comment


          • #50
            One wonders if Disney will be the hit with any lawsuits as a result of this outbreak. A simple Google search reveals many previous and current legal actions for Legionnaires. One of the requirements for winning such a suit is that the place of business has to be shown to be negligent, so the above discussion is quite relevant. Of course there are many law firms that specialize in trying to prove one side of the argument, or the other, so it isnโ€™t a slam dunk to win one.

            Comment


            • #51
              Shoddy maintenance practices likely suspected !
              Cheap- ing out on maintenance...just blame a CM......one have ask.......what next?
              Considering the reputation of present DL executive management.
              Soaring like an EAGLE !

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by RobertaME View Post
                No, it resulted from the replacement of an expensive hemp rope called for in the design specs that was designed to break with a cheaper nylon rope that was stronger than specifications called for... stronger than the support it was attached to. This establishes a record of a death caused DIRECTLY by cost-cutting in maintenance and a failure to understand the reasons for the design specs in the first place.

                It would be no different if the Matterhorn cars were replaced with cars that have plastic wheels that are cheaper to replace that then fail and someone dies because it was subjected to stress it was never designed to take. The fault would be MAINTENANCE... not the fault of the maintenance CM that followed the replacement schedule for nylon wheels that were called for in the design specs. (or in the case of the Colombia, not the fault of the CM that tied off the ship which even if it WAS going too fast wouldn't have mattered if the rope were the correct one according to the design specifications)

                Facts are facts. The death at the Colombia dock was DIRECTLY tied to cheaping out on maintenance and not adhering to the design specs just to save a few bucks. You can try and sugarcoat it all you want and just blame the CM, but you can't wipe away reality just because it paints TDA in a bad light. They cheaped out on the maintenance and someone died because of it. That in light of this issue with the cooling towers creates a pattern of at least SUSPECTED poor maintenance leading to death or injury that should be scrutinized.

                If TDA had no history of poor maintenance leading to death or injury, it would be different... but they do... so it isn't.
                Well and accurately said. One can understand wanting to defend Disney against criticism, and wanting to wait until all the facts are in before assigning blame. But to flat-out deny the reality of past maintenance malfeasance, when the facts are a matter of public record, is incomprehensible. One can only hope that for the safety of Disney's guests, the executives who control the maintenance budgets are more grounded in reality than some of Disney's more partisan supporters.

                "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
                Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
                imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

                - Neil Gabler

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by RobertaME;n[URL="tel:8540045"
                  8540045[/URL]]
                  No, it resulted from the replacement of an expensive hemp rope called for in the design specs that was designed to break with a cheaper nylon rope that was stronger than specifications called for... stronger than the support it was attached to. This establishes a record of a death caused DIRECTLY by cost-cutting in maintenance and a failure to understand the reasons for the design specs in the first place.

                  โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹Except this is not what the accident report states. The accident report stated, as I had mentioned, that the accident was a result of the CM trying to tie off the boat when it was approaching too fast.

                  From the LA Times on the OSHA report:
                  http://articles.latimes.com/1999/mar/26/news/mn-21222
                  Under Disney's operating procedures, the mooring line was to be attached to the cleat "only if the Columbia is making an approach slow enough to be able to stop before the bowline is taut," the report said. But that decision, the report said, is a judgment call based on the experience of the dockworker. On that morning, Carpenter had appointed herself, despite her lack of training, to work the dock alone until another employee arrived for a scheduled 11 a.m. shift.

                  According to the report, this violated Disneyland's policy manual, which states that before an employee is qualified to operate the Columbia, "it is essential that he/she completes a comprehensive eight-hour training program in the specific job responsibilities."

                  Separate article in the OC Coroner report:
                  The Christmas Eve accident that killed a Disneyland tourist occurred because the worker who lashed the sailing ship Columbia to the dock as the ride ended did not realize the large ship was moving dangerously fast, an autopsy report said Wednesday.

                  In the first official account of the grisly tragedy, an Orange County deputy coroner said the mooring rope pulled taut, then ripped an 8-pound metal cleat out of the ship's bow. The rope shattered the dock worker's foot as it whipsawed around, then flung the cleat 15 feet into a crowd waiting to board the ship, fatally injuring a Washington state man and wounding his wife.

                  "The normal procedure when the ship is coming in too fast is to not secure the mooring line," the report said. Instead, workers should let the ship "overshoot the dock, and then reverse" gently into its proper position.

                  It's worth noting that the accident report for the Columbia mentioned the Cast Members statements that the rope was the determining factor, but obviously the state report dismissed it as the cause. Most likely because the Cast Members being interviewed had a vested interest in defending their friend, but stating as such doesn't make it true.
                  โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹
                  It would be no different if the Matterhorn cars were replaced with cars that have plastic wheels that are cheaper to replace that then fail and someone dies because it was subjected to stress it was never designed to take. The fault would be MAINTENANCE... not the fault of the maintenance CM that followed the replacement schedule for nylon wheels that were called for in the design specs.
                  I'm afraid you have this backwards. The better analogy would be if Disneyland policy stated not to replace the wheels with plastic, but the Cast Member did so regardless. One demonstrates a willful disregard for safety, while the other could be chaulked up to just an accident caused by inattention or ignorance. Blaming the change of the rope would be akin to a speeding motorist trying to blame his infraction on a busted speedometer. But that's not how the law works. In both cases maintenance was cleared as a cause of the accident, and OSHA stated several times that the accidents we're not deemed willful.

                  That's why I'm trying to make the distinction here. It is two different scenarios being described. In one, Disneyland sets the policy to X and Cast Member does Y, and in the second, Disneyland changes policy to Y knowing it was unsafe in an attempt to save money (a willfull act). The latter of these two scenarios, while not being the case in any situation, is a dangerous and irresponsible scenario to put forward. It serves only to perpetuate falsehoods and misinformation in a transparent attempt to foster distrust of Disneyland Management where absolutely none is warranted.


                  Facts are facts.
                  I agree. That's why I am quoting actual sources here instead of perpetuating myths.

                  That in light of this issue with the cooling towers creates a pattern of at least SUSPECTED poor maintenance leading to death or injury that should be scrutinized.
                  Regarding the cooling towers... The only suggestion I found was from OSHA which recommended that cooling towers be inspected twice a year. Considering no one here offered that as evidence against Disney, I am guessing no one here actually knows when the cooling towers are inspected and whether their maintenance schedule complies with state regulation, so once again we are doing nothing here but perpetuating flasehoods and misinformation based on our own personal beliefs.

                  If TDA had no history of poor maintenance leading to death or injury, it would be different... but they do... so it isn't.
                  They quite literally do not. And you can't just wipe away reality because you want to paint TDA as the bad guy.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by MrLiver View Post
                    โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹Except this is not what the accident report states. The accident report stated, as I had mentioned, that the accident was a result of the CM trying to tie off the boat when it was approaching too fast. [snip]

                    It's worth noting that the accident report for the Columbia mentioned the Cast Members statements that the rope was the determining factor, but obviously the state report dismissed it as the cause. Most likely because the Cast Members being interviewed had a vested interest in defending their friend, but stating as such doesn't make it true.
                    Yeah, like TDA is going to pass up an opportunity to pin the death on some poor nobody and TDA lawyers had every reason in the world to cite any legal loophole they could to shift the blame away from TDA.

                    I'm afraid you have this backwards. The better analogy would be if Disneyland policy stated not to replace the wheels with plastic, but the Cast Member did so regardless. One demonstrates a willful disregard for safety, while the other could be chaulked up to just an accident caused by inattention or ignorance. Blaming the change of the rope would be akin to a speeding motorist trying to blame his infraction on a busted speedometer. But that's not how the law works. In both cases maintenance was cleared as a cause of the accident, and OSHA stated several times that the accidents we're not deemed willful.

                    That's why I'm trying to make the distinction here. It is two different scenarios being described. In one, Disneyland sets the policy to X and Cast Member does Y, and in the second, Disneyland changes policy to Y knowing it was unsafe in an attempt to save money (a willfull act). The latter of these two scenarios, while not being the case in any situation, is a dangerous and irresponsible scenario to put forward. It serves only to perpetuate falsehoods and misinformation in a transparent attempt to foster distrust of Disneyland Management where absolutely none is warranted.
                    Then explain why a breakaway rope, as called for in the attraction's original design specifications, was replaced with a nylon rope that wouldn't break under the exact situation it was supposed to? Who made that decision? Doing so left no margin of safety that was built into the attraction's design. It was the very definition of cutting corners to save a buck. (as you put it, a willful act of negligence) That TDA lawyers were able to argue away their negligence on a legal technicality is irrelevant to the fact that we're talking about some idiot bean counter efficiency expert that decided that lap bars don't need to be checked because none of them had ever failed (when them being checked nightly is WHY they never failed) and decided that the expensive breakaway rope could be replaced with a cheap nylon rope because no one had ever made a mistake in docking.

                    The reason the rope was designed to breakaway is because the engineers who designed the attraction understood the very basic fact of reality... somebody will inevitably be human and make a mistake someday and we don't want to kill anybody when (not if) it happens.

                    Your willingness to excuse TDA foir eliminating a safty factor and not calling it willful negligence speaks VOLUMES.

                    I agree. That's why I am quoting actual sources here instead of perpetuating myths.
                    Actually you're just perpetuating legal excuses for corporations to get off scot-free when cutting corners and then blaming humans for being human when their razor-thin margins of safety fail and there is no fail-safe.

                    Regarding the cooling towers... The only suggestion I found was from OSHA which recommended that cooling towers be inspected twice a year. Considering no one here offered that as evidence against Disney, I am guessing no one here actually knows when the cooling towers are inspected and whether their maintenance schedule complies with state regulation, so once again we are doing nothing here but perpetuating flasehoods and misinformation based on our own personal beliefs.
                    The difference is that you refuse to accept that TDA has a history of negligence that the majority of people agree is in fact true. That history that you refuse to accept is the reason to be skeptical.

                    They quite literally do not. And you can't just wipe away reality because you want to paint TDA as the bad guy.
                    They are what they are, no matter how many times you deny it. The accounts of CMs that worked for TDA Maintenance relating how TDA Management cut every corner they could are legion.

                    Sure, you can cite "state regulation" and "acceptable industry standards" all day... but Disney is supposed to be better than "good enough to be legal" or "adequate to meet industry standards" aren't they? When Mr. Disney created the standards for his park it was considered the most remarkable example of urban design anywhere. (ref. James W. Rouse, 1963 Urban Design Conference at Harvard University) That included an unmatched public safety record, supported not by flawless CMs but by intelligent design that refused to accept "good enough to be legally safe from liability" as the standard. Those standards have been tossed out the window by current management, and THAT cannot be denied.

                    But I guess "good enough to not be sued" is good enough for some people.
                    ---
                    Once Upon a Time, in Anaheim... Anaheim, California...

                    DLR 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1985, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1992, 1994, 1996, 1999, 2001, 2003, 2008, 2012 & 2013 with 2015 later this year...

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by RobertaME View Post
                      Yeah, like TDA is going to pass up an opportunity to pin the death on some poor nobody and TDA lawyers had every reason in the world to cite any legal loophole they could to shift the blame away from TDA.
                      TDA didn't write the accident report(s). The reports are the outcome of an independent state investigation. That's how we know they represent the truth.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by MrLiver View Post
                        TDA didn't write the accident report(s). The reports are the outcome of an independent state investigation. That's how we know they represent the truth.
                        *snip* Please be nice. The rest of the post has not been modified.


                        Good enough safety standards not to be legally liable shouldn't be the DL standard. They weren't good enough for Walt and they still aren't and never will be... especially when it comes to guest safety.

                        Just because they weren't TECHNICALLY liable enough to be considered legally at fault for willful negligence doesn't change the fact that TDA is proven to have cut corners on ride safety systems and someone died because of it. That man would still be alive today if TDA had adhered to the original design specs which allowed for human error without fatal risk.
                        ---
                        Once Upon a Time, in Anaheim... Anaheim, California...

                        DLR 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1985, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1992, 1994, 1996, 1999, 2001, 2003, 2008, 2012 & 2013 with 2015 later this year...

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Some of the responses in this thread include some questionable statements. In the interest of fairness, I started to remove statements that could be considered attacks. The problem is that I removed one statement, but that might not have been the best thing to do.

                          If you are offended by anything, or you think something should be removed, please let me know.

                          I think the discussion in this thread is civil and on-topic, so I really want to stay out of this unless someone flags a post.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Everyone keeps bringing up the Columbia incident and saying what standard Disney should have held to with the rope but is this an actual true statement? I do not work on ships everyday for an amusement park so do not know the standard. Does anyone actually work in an industry where they deal with this on a day to day basis or is it just guessing and conjecture at this point?

                            Many posters have have also said that Walt Disney has better than what was needed for safety. Is this again conjecture or is this actual fact?

                            Asking these questions because cause many statements have been thrown around about how Disney doesnโ€™t care/ slashed the maintenance budget about without any facts. The only fact statements that I have seen have come from the accident investigation which found that it was the fault of the cast member and not maintenance. As someone has already pointed out the accident report was an independent investigation and not Disney so it cannot be dismissed by saying Disney would of course make it sound that way in the report to cover themselves.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by E.P. Ripley View Post
                              Everyone keeps bringing up the Columbia incident and saying what standard Disney should have held to with the rope but is this an actual true statement? I do not work on ships everyday for an amusement park so do not know the standard. Does anyone actually work in an industry where they deal with this on a day to day basis or is it just guessing and conjecture at this point?
                              That's a fair question. I think at this point (while it's already ancient history) its all merely just speculation that one rope type would have broken differently than another. The accident investigation also noted that the improper procedure of tying off the boat while it was moving too fast had been performed several times in the past, as indicated by the weakness in the hull of the Columbia and the cast member statements. So there is no guarantee that having a different rope type would have resulted in a different outcome.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                LA Times 11/16/2017: Officials are still searching for the source of 4 Legionnaires' cases. Disneyland cooling towers haven't been ruled out

                                "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
                                Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
                                imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

                                - Neil Gabler

                                Comment

                                Ad Widget

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X