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Disneyland Files Permit to Renovate Upper Level of Starcade at Space Mountain

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  • #41
    Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post

    The #1 thing in support of that viewpoint is the fact that Disney doesn't spend money to make guests more comfortable; they spend money to make money.
    Pressler replacing restful benches with ODV carts......

    You know ,Just taken the Park Bench's out of the park ....Tick me off

    Bob Chapek is up to something else.......were he wants you to open your WALLET !
    OPEN_OPEN_ OPEN

    Soaring like an EAGLE !

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    • #42
      Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post

      The #1 thing in support of that viewpoint is the fact that Disney doesn't spend money to make guests more comfortable; they spend money to make money. Be it Pressler replacing restful benches with ODV carts, or later management regimes turning the quiet Court of Angels into an upscale adjunct to Club 33, repurposing the peaceful Alpine Gardens into a branded character meet-and-greet, or replacing Carnation Plaza Gardens with Princess Fantasy Faire, DL management's marching orders have been to maximize profits by looking for ways to monetize the infrastructure, either through direct merchandising, upsell, or brand promotion.
      This is a fact that they don't spend money to make guests more comfortable? Just in recent terms we have things like: enclosing the Queue for Midway Mania and adding a/c. They actually removed retail space and moved(and reduced) another to make room for more seating and strollers in Adventureland to make it less of a bottleneck. We then have the refurbishment of Dumbo, where all rumors have been that as they reconfigure the queue they will be adding shade as well. Or do these just not meet the definition of making guests more comfortable?

      Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post

      True enough. But there's no law that says Disney can't route that "queue" through a money-making operation. Given their track record in this regard, I think it would be astonishing if they didn't.
      You specifically highlighted the section about filing a false permit. So can you please provide other cases where they have a track record of filing false permits? Can you provide a track record of them routing queues through a "money making operation?

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by Sprig View Post

        That was my point about Space Mountain.

        Since 1977, from what I remember, the only two significant changes have been the removal of the speed ramps and breaking up the line for FastPass.

        How was the Space Mountain attraction defined legally in 1977? And, how is it legally defined now? And, yes this stuff matters.

        With the changes over the years, Space Mountain does not need 5,000 EXTRA Que space. The Standby-Line is already at an elevation change to maximize Que capacity.

        Oh, and what is TDA going to "theme" this new interior to?

        Star Tours vehicle to People Mover vehicle to SWGE to ...??? Ride vehicle to ride vehicle; just not the same ride...
        As Micechat noted a while ago (back when they used to report on rumors), Disneyland park has been undergoing various measures to prepare for unprecedented crowds following the opening of Star Wars: Galaxy's Edge. We've seen various attempts in Adventureland to rework the crowdflow and move around snack/dining options to get people out of walkways. Last I heard, there was speculation that the french fry rocks in front of Tomorrowland were slated to be removed, and now the PeopleMover track is getting tossed around too.

        I'm not certain that Space Mountain needs 5000 sq ft of queue space, but I believe MaxPass will have a major effect on crowds, especially during the summer once Star Wars opens. Letting people roam the parks as they wait for the reservation, more guests will be able to wait in lines. Maybe the old roof deck queue will be used for a FastPass line since more people get more FastPasses per day with MaxPass than ever before.


        Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post

        True enough. But there's no law that says Disney can't route that "queue" through a money-making operation. Given their track record in this regard, I think it would be astonishing if they didn't.
        I wouldn't be surprised if that's why the backstage stairwell was built. I could totally imagine a vending cart being set up to sell guests Star Wars-colored lightsaber churros, etc. while you wait.

        Originally posted by Tomorrowland_1967 View Post

        Thanks Alec. Don’t you find it odd Disney would spend money to add to Space Mountain ‘s queue? What they have now seems adequate. Given the corporate structure the company is these days.... seems impossible they’d do something like this unless there is something attached that means opening up your wallet!

        Why now? The upper level of the arcade has been off limits to the public since 1999. With updated state codes rendering it obsolete. And I can tell you all .... I remember the floor up there had a good “wobble” to it. (Not a very rigid floor) ..... so me thinks there’s plenty work to do up there for just a nice air conditioned section of queue? Chapek is up to something else .... cause I can smell something stinky in the works!
        I do find it odd that Disney is choosing now to move the queue. These are changes that could have been made any time in the last decade or more (before the 2012 re-opening of DCA, for the 60th Anniversary, etc.). Maybe some employees in the Team Disney Anaheim building have taken notice of the park's need for such minor improvements and are using the threat of the Star Wars land's summer crowds to win the budgets for these smaller projects. That's why we're seeing Dumbo and Small World have their queues reworked, and now Space Mountain is just next on the list.

        I shared my thought earlier that maybe Disney wants to move the entire Space Mountain queue to the right side to free up space for something new where Pizza Port and the Magic Eye Theatre are currently. I could see Disney building it out and moving the Star Trader to this spot to give it even more room for merchandise than it currently has, then maybe moving the Space Mountain queue entrance into where Star Trader is currently and going up the old speedramps/escalators to the second floor. They'd have to add a restaurant to replace what becomes of Pizza Port, but that just matches with my desire to see the Carousel Theatre turned into a giant revolving sit-down restaurant with views of space


        Originally posted by DLMountainFan View Post

        You specifically highlighted the section about filing a false permit. So can you please provide other cases where they have a track record of filing false permits? Can you provide a track record of them routing queues through a "money making operation?
        I think Mr Wiggins was just saying that while it's true that it's illegal to lie on a permit application, he wouldn't be surprised if Disney puts a snack bar or merchandise cart in the queue to find a way to still make money off of this new space.


        --


        I always try to be fairly evenhanded in my criticism of Disney, and I always try to take a skeptical eye in case Disney tries to pull a bait and switch. Whatever the motivations might be for this queue change, I think it's largely a good thing that after 40 years we finally get a queue that's mostly indoors and air-conditioned. I won't hold my breath in case it's poorly themed, has TVs installed overhead, or tries to sell me something. However, if it turns out like Star Tours' extended queue, I will be comfortable with it. That result isn't incredible, but its effective and air conditioned before the well-themed part of the queue begins. My guess is that's what we'll be in store for here.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by WaltDisney'sAlec View Post
          I think Mr Wiggins was just saying that while it's true that it's illegal to lie on a permit application, he wouldn't be surprised if Disney puts a snack bar or merchandise cart in the queue to find a way to still make money off of this new space.
          Thanks Alec! Exactly right.

          "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
          it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
          together with every variety of recreation and fun,
          designed to appeal to everyone."

          - Walt Disney

          "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
          - Michael Eisner

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by WaltDisney'sAlec View Post
            I think it's largely a good thing that after 40 years we finally get a queue that's mostly indoors and air-conditioned.
            Well, technically, we had that before FastPass required holding everyone outside the Mountain for as long as possible. I remember lots of waiting through Space Mountain's dark tunnels in the "old times," especially when they had the portals to the ride open and you could see the trains rushing around.

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by WaltDisney'sAlec View Post


              I think Mr Wiggins was just saying that while it's true that it's illegal to lie on a permit application, he wouldn't be surprised if Disney puts a snack bar or merchandise cart in the queue to find a way to still make money off of this new space.


              --
              .
              Selling food items to people waiting in line for a ride? So would they just hold up the line while someone is doing the transaction, or just let people cut in front of them and then let them back in line, thus cutting in front of someone else? And then once they get the churro does the cast member say,"Now be sure to finish that up before you get into the main building!".

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by 9oldmen View Post
                Selling food items to people waiting in line for a ride? So would they just hold up the line while someone is doing the transaction, or just let people cut in front of them and then let them back in line, thus cutting in front of someone else? And then once they get the churro does the cast member say,"Now be sure to finish that up before you get into the main building!".
                Regardless of what form the monetization takes, the fact remains that the 2Bobs do not spend money on guest comfort. They spend money to make money, via brand promotion, marketing, and merchandising.

                "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
                it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
                together with every variety of recreation and fun,
                designed to appeal to everyone."

                - Walt Disney

                "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
                - Michael Eisner

                Comment


                • #48
                  What if moving the Space Mountain queue is a prelude to ripping out the Magic Eye Theater?

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post

                    Regardless of what form the monetization takes, the fact remains that the 2Bobs do not spend money on guest comfort. They spend money to make money, via brand promotion, marketing, and merchandising.
                    The 2 Bobs do spend money on guest comfort:

                    There is MaxPass.
                    There are the special meal packages that afford a better view of the shows (e.g., World of Color).
                    There are the renovations to the existing hotels.
                    There is the proposal to build a luxury hotel.

                    The twist here, of course, is that the guest will have to spend more money to get this comfort. That's how things work today. Courtesy is dead because most customers were too cheap to deserve it.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by 9oldmen View Post
                      Selling food items to people waiting in line for a ride? So would they just hold up the line while someone is doing the transaction, or just let people cut in front of them and then let them back in line, thus cutting in front of someone else? And then once they get the churro does the cast member say,"Now be sure to finish that up before you get into the main building!".
                      and ask were the ""RESTROOM"" ?
                      lol
                      Soaring like an EAGLE !

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by DL714 View Post

                        The 2 Bobs do spend money on guest comfort:

                        There is MaxPass.
                        There are the special meal packages that afford a better view of the shows (e.g., World of Color).
                        There are the renovations to the existing hotels.
                        There is the proposal to build a luxury hotel.

                        The twist here, of course, is that the guest will have to spend more money to get this comfort. That's how things work today. Courtesy is dead because most customers were too cheap to deserve it.
                        I'm not going to argue that current management doesn't look for opportunities to monetize at just about every opportunity. But just to point out that NONE of those have anything to do with changing a Stand-By queue..which is what this permit states they are working on.

                        If you want a more accurate comparison, in recent times
                        Midway Mania - Enclosing Extended Queue and adding A/C
                        Small World - Queue reconfiguration and adding shade
                        Dumbo - Reconfiguration and adding shade

                        The funny thing here is that one big argument is that Disney is just doing this to somehow monetize the space. But really if it is only about profit wouldn't any sort of monetizing be better done by making it something that would bring in more money than a queue? After all setting up a ODV cart or two in this space while may bring in some coin, probably would be a very low ROI. They could spend less and expand it to a new retail location. They could even just expand their current "conference space". A few more bucks and they could create a new "experience" of course for an extra cost, just think...another VR outlet.

                        But then the claims that are out there they don't do anything unless it can be monetized in terms of brand promotion, marketing or merchandising is painted with such a broad brush there really isn't anything they can do short of painting the walls white that some wouldn't just dismiss and bucket the change into that broad definition where they would come around and say "Yep.they did it again". Of course if they do make a very generic queue that can't somehow be twisted into this marketing buckets, the comments will then turn to the standard "That's all they did..just another cheap attempt to make it look like they are improving things". Once again, before anything more than a permit has been filed we have all of this doom and gloom, I wonder what it would take for Disney to do to actually have some say that Disney did a good thing with this space?

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Maybe there is a compromise here. To stand in the new ac/shade queue on space mountain you pay an upcharge! Your new AC/shade oriented line will have switch backs in it until you are merged back into the normal line at the FP and normal line spot. This sounds like a great way to get more money from guests!!! Enjoy AC and shade for 10 dollars while the peasants bake in the sun!

                          I'm being a smart A obviously! But there idea made me laugh based on some responses here!
                          These are some of my favorite TRs I have posted

                          DL 55th BDAY trip report
                          My company had a special night at the park
                          WdW trip report with WWoHP
                          NYE 2011 trip report
                          Mice Chat 7th anniversary
                          Leap year 24 hour report
                          New DCA trip report
                          NYE 2012
                          HKDL trip report

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                          • #53
                            Originally posted by 9oldmen View Post
                            Selling food items to people waiting in line for a ride? So would they just hold up the line while someone is doing the transaction, or just let people cut in front of them and then let them back in line, thus cutting in front of someone else? And then once they get the churro does the cast member say,"Now be sure to finish that up before you get into the main building!".
                            Knotts does this for a few rides/lines during Scary Farm. Universal and Six Flags do as well. Frankly I'm surprised it hasn't shown up at Disneyland before, it seems like such an easy thing that Disney would do to increase revenue.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Nirya View Post

                              Knotts does this for a few rides/lines during Scary Farm. Universal and Six Flags do as well. Frankly I'm surprised it hasn't shown up at Disneyland before, it seems like such an easy thing that Disney would do to increase revenue.
                              They have had this on a couple of occasions. One is when RSR opened they had a person wander through the line. Another one I have seen is a ODV cart on top o the magic eye theater.
                              These are some of my favorite TRs I have posted

                              DL 55th BDAY trip report
                              My company had a special night at the park
                              WdW trip report with WWoHP
                              NYE 2011 trip report
                              Mice Chat 7th anniversary
                              Leap year 24 hour report
                              New DCA trip report
                              NYE 2012
                              HKDL trip report

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                I think Disney realizes the lines are the primary complaint guests have and they know they cannot remove them but they can hide them. If visually people are hidden away in halls and rooms off the main path it can go a long way to removing the look and feel of endless lines. Moving the queue over to the old husk of Starcade means they could also possibly recreate a more direct entrance right into the section with the various doors right before you make your left turn into the launch bay. You would now go straight through and this would get rid of the switch back halls that were the old queue which would no longer need to be maintained as walking area. Also that area and the Magic Eye Theater could now have a more severe remodeling or even removal for a new structure without shutting off one of the most popular attraction for an extended period. Or they will just make the new open terrace an "exclu$ive dining experience"

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Starcade View Post
                                  I think Disney realizes the lines are the primary complaint guests have and they know they cannot remove them but they can hide them. If visually people are hidden away in halls and rooms off the main path it can go a long way to removing the look and feel of endless lines. Moving the queue over to the old husk of Starcade means they could also possibly recreate a more direct entrance right into the section with the various doors right before you make your left turn into the launch bay. You would now go straight through and this would get rid of the switch back halls that were the old queue which would no longer need to be maintained as walking area. Also that area and the Magic Eye Theater could now have a more severe remodeling or even removal for a new structure without shutting off one of the most popular attraction for an extended period.

                                  I think ....this part of your post make sense........
                                  It is way to have lines/and shade queue , out of the way.....for more walking room in the front area......
                                  Soaring like an EAGLE !

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by mandelbrot View Post
                                    What if moving the Space Mountain queue is a prelude to ripping out the Magic Eye Theater?
                                    I think that could be the biggest change coming if they entirely route the queue into the Starcade. Several people before me have mentioned the Pizza Port/Magic Eye/Carousel Theater plot of land as being ideal for remodeling which I agree with but at the same time think is an odd plot of land to be developing given it's dimensions. For reference, this area was supposed to be home to Plecteau's Galactic Revue and Alien Encounter had the original Eisner 2055 plan gone through, both of which aren't E tickets and are theater based in the same space in question.
                                    "Hello folks, welcome aboard the Disneyland Railroad..."
                                    "The Gods have been angered by all the celebratin'..."

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      First time poster, but I think you've hit the nail on the head. There's really no way that Disney can do any genuine remodel of Tomorrowland if Space Mountain is offline for a prolonged length of time. Not only is it one of the most popular rides in the park (guest experience wise) but eats a lot of people, and it would force those guests into lines elsewhere. If you assume that the Starcade/Star Tours building complex has to remain, then moving the queue inside of that building allows Disney to attack the back half of the land without taking down one of its most popular rides.

                                      If you start to put two and two together around the rumor concerning the removal of the Peoplemover tracks and the re-routing of the Space Mountain queue, an argument can be made that Disney is starting to clear the way for the Tomorrowland reboot that so many fans have pined for lo these many years. I'm optimistic.

                                      Originally posted by Starcade View Post
                                      I think Disney realizes the lines are the primary complaint guests have and they know they cannot remove them but they can hide them. If visually people are hidden away in halls and rooms off the main path it can go a long way to removing the look and feel of endless lines. Moving the queue over to the old husk of Starcade means they could also possibly recreate a more direct entrance right into the section with the various doors right before you make your left turn into the launch bay. You would now go straight through and this would get rid of the switch back halls that were the old queue which would no longer need to be maintained as walking area. Also that area and the Magic Eye Theater could now have a more severe remodeling or even removal for a new structure without shutting off one of the most popular attraction for an extended period. Or they will just make the new open terrace an "exclu$ive dining experience"

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by mickdaddy View Post
                                        An indoor Queue for Space Mountain that is themed will be such a welcome addition.
                                        Space mountain has an indoor queue (not very well themed, especially not any more), but the way they have things set up now, with the merge point of the standby and FP lines being outside, we mostly rush right through it to the end. At least that's the way it's worked the last several times I've gone on it. I remember, years ago, being happy to finally get to the interior queue for SM, because it was air conditioned and there were at least Space Mountain sounds inside. It also signaled that we were getting closer to the end of the line.
                                        Dead Mice Tell No Tails!

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                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by BiggestDisneyFan View Post

                                          Space mountain has an indoor queue (not very well themed, especially not any more), but the way they have things set up now, with the merge point of the standby and FP lines being outside, we mostly rush right through it to the end. At least that's the way it's worked the last several times I've gone on it. I remember, years ago, being happy to finally get to the interior queue for SM, because it was air conditioned and there were at least Space Mountain sounds inside. It also signaled that we were getting closer to the end of the line.
                                          This is true, the last time I rode standby I felt like I was on the roof forever so the indoor portion does feel very small.
                                          BGood! It's not just my motto its my name!

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