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  • #41
    Originally posted by Sprig View Post
    What I heard was that TDA did not want to keep spending the money on the 2 cast members needed to operate the elevators.
    I sure you are right......We all know ,Disney does not want more - cast member on a attraction......

    other factor in play with Astro Orbiter.......
    Weather (such as the winds) and California safety code have change.
    I agree with most post- Astro Orbiter is in a bad place in front of Tomorrowland ....
    and one who enjoy 1967 versions on top pad of the 67 infrastructure.......
    Is not the same today........when it was in 1967
    Last edited by Eagleman; 04-21-2018, 05:24 PM.
    Soaring like an EAGLE !

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    • #42
      Originally posted by ajburk97 View Post
      what its worth, in an interview Tony baxter cited weight as the reason for moving it in an interview. Both explanations make sense.
      Just because he said it, does not make what he said true. I'm fairly certain that he would say anything other then saying it was done for money saving reasons.

      Because it was Mr Disney that had it built, I believe the foundation could support a dozen M-1 Abrams Main Battle Tanks up there (ookay, I might be exaggerating a bit...maybe only eleventy one).

      If I am remembering correctly, the cast member requirements were the primary reason, as I stated in my first reply, but the elevators themselves were costly to operate and keep certified.

      Anyways, not my intent to disagree with you, just disagreeing with Tony Baxter.
      Last edited by Sprig; 04-21-2018, 07:37 PM.

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      • #43
        Hmm, though I agree the track will eventually go, I will be extremely surprised if it happens that soon, and not part of a re-model of Tomorrowland. Even doing it piece-by-piece would mean a lot of construction walls in an already congested area.

        Btw, does anyone know when one of the planters around the PM support beams was taken out? I'm not usually in that land and was pleasantly surprised to find it gone the last time I was there. Traffic has improved a little around that beam. I wish they would take out the other one too.

        As for the Astro Orbiter, I wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple reasons combined. Very rarely is there only one reason behind these kinds of decisions. I think weight may have been a concern, but I also think Baxter is not being completely open if he's only giving that reason. From a creative viewpoint, it was an obvious attempt to give Tomorrowland a "weenie" (perhaps to make up for the loss of PM's kinetic energy).

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        • #44
          Originally posted by Sprig View Post
          Just because he said it, does not make what he said true. I'm fairly certain that he would say anything other then saying it was done for money saving reasons.

          Because it was Mr Disney that had it built, I believe the foundation could support a dozen M-1 Abrams Main Battle Tanks up there (ookay, I might be exaggerating a bit...maybe only eleventy one).

          If I am remembering correctly, the cast member requirements were the primary reason, as I stated in my first reply, but the elevators themselves were costly to operate and keep certified.

          Anyways, not my intent to disagree with you, just disagreeing with Tony Baxter.
          He does talk about how their budget kept getting slashed, how the management culture at the time was different than before and how that effected Tomorrowland '98 and DCA. I'm quoting the Season Pass Podcast Tony Baxter interview (can't remember which part off the top of my head)- you should give it a listen, it's surprisingly thorough.

          I think you're giving Disney to much credit in regards to what they would build in the 60's. They designed the structure to what they needed it to do at the time, and it was later determined that the structure wasn't going to be suitable for the new Astro Orbiter.

          I don't doubt that saving labor was a reason- that's always a factor when determining what to build in an amusement park, but I've always heard that the structure not being capable of supporting the Astro Orbiter as the main reason, if you're able to share any articles or anything that cite the labor/elevator as being the primary reason I'd be very interested in learning more.

          He's been surprisingly open about more than you'd think- especially when being critical of Tomorrowland '98. With any major decision, there are multiple factors at play. Don't discount weight as being a reason, just because you haven't heard it before.
          Last edited by ajburk97; 04-21-2018, 10:49 PM.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by ajburk97 View Post

            He's been surprisingly open about more than you'd think- especially when being critical of Tomorrowland '98. With any major decision, there are multiple factors at play. Don't discount weight as being a reason, just because you haven't heard it before.
            I think multiple factors with the weight as being one reason.......
            as I share other reason's
            Weather ( such as the winds)
            California Safety Code- also change gotten stricter
            Soaring like an EAGLE !

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            • #46
              Originally posted by Phantomwise View Post
              As for the Astro Orbiter, I wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple reasons combined. Very rarely is there only one reason behind these kinds of decisions. I think weight may have been a concern, but I also think Baxter is not being completely open if he's only giving that reason.
              I think it's obvious that in any public forum, Disney isn't gonna give the complete story. I shared that since it offers additional insight into why they moved the Rocket Jets.

              Originally posted by Phantomwise View Post
              From a creative viewpoint, it was an obvious attempt to give Tomorrowland a "weenie" (perhaps to make up for the loss of PM's kinetic energy).
              There were many reasons to move it- but I don't think this was one of them. Remember- at the time they thought Rocket Rods was gonna last a lot longer than a year or two, so at the time they weren't planning on having any kinetic energy get lost. I'm guessing that when it became clear that they were gonna move the Rocket Jets, the entrance was the best spot to do it from a spacial standpoint.


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              • #47
                Originally posted by micromind View Post
                Tearing stuff like this down costs money........it could have a negative impact on executive compensation.......can't have that!!
                No problem-Disney can rise the price on Admissionlol
                Soaring like an EAGLE !

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by ajburk97 View Post
                  ...I'm guessing that when it became clear that they were gonna move the Rocket Jets, the entrance was the best spot to do it from a spacial standpoint.
                  okay
                  http://www.yesterland.com/astrojets.html

                  Mr Disney would never have done it the way it was done after he left.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Sprig View Post

                    okay
                    http://www.yesterland.com/astrojets.html

                    Mr Disney would never have done it the way it was done after he left.
                    I have to admit, I'm a bit confused by this response. Playing the "what Walt would have done" game is a very dangerous one, especially for those of us who never actually met the guy. I'm not gonna speculate on what would have been done had he stayed alive- since I imagine my guess (or any of ours) would be very far off.

                    But I do agree, Disneyland today would likely look very different had Walt stayed alive for a few decades longer- but I don't see how this is relevant to the conversation.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                      What current codes does the monorail violate?
                      I would like someone to elaborate on this ....... Since I've been a member of this board for quite sometime ... some insightful posters have brought this subject up several times of (not just the Monorail) but other Disneyland attractions that get renewed through this grandfathering clause thing. That allows them to continue to operate.

                      I hope everyone got my point - If it's that's easy to write something on a piece of paper that says - "Attractions X,Y,and Z can continue operation" ... but not the Peoplemover because of such and such and so and so (bureaucratic!!) reasoning .......... Then EVERYONE should be taking note that it's RED TAPE that keeps the PM from returning.

                      Why does no one tackle this specific subject .. and do some real probing with these California agencies? 10+ years on this board .... no one takes a closer look at the real reasons why the PM doesn't return in some new form.

                      Stop falling for the same old "Permanent doom for any PM to return" line (the same gloom and doom chatter always seems to regurgitate and makes circles in these online discussion forums year in year out) .... and realize there's PLENTY Disney does not tell us!

                      Are we clear on that?
                      MY SIGNATURE:
                      Dear Peoplemover Fans, If you want to see a new attraction that at least mimics the 1967 Peoplemover in a future Tomorrowland remodel, you need to write to the powers-that-be, and let them know. If you don't - Then the next time Tomorrowland is remodeled, you will see a land barren of any "Peoplemover" type attraction.

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                      • #51
                        The 405 Freeway was completely closed down in the BelAire section for a weekend to do some needed repairs on an overpass bridge...move over disney execs and let competent professionals handle the demolition of the PeopleMover railings...
                        I am old. But still love Disneyland.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by Tomorrowland_1967 View Post
                          and realize there's PLENTY Disney does not tell us!

                          Are we clear on that?
                          I can sure you ......Disney does not share with me !..........I would be the last to know........
                          But MONEY is big Factor ,be hide Disney..........

                          Soaring like an EAGLE !

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by bayouguy View Post
                            The 405 Freeway was completely closed down in the BelAire section for a weekend to do some needed repairs on an overpass bridge...move over disney execs and let competent professionals handle the demolition of the PeopleMover railings...
                            I was thinking of the Peoplemover track.....it would not surprise me
                            Way California Safety Code - is forcing Disney to take down the tracks-
                            current ADA and OSHA= earthquake requirements ~ just like the bridges all over the state.
                            Soaring like an EAGLE !

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Tomorrowland_1967 View Post
                              Then EVERYONE should be taking note that it's RED TAPE that keeps the PM from returning.
                              And, money, the budget to make it happen.
                              I'm pretty certain that I saw a video, about 5 years ago, where it was stated that there were ideas to bring the PM back and the budget was the main obstacle. And, no, I'm not trying to egg on Eagleman.
                              Originally posted by Tomorrowland_1967 View Post
                              Why does no one tackle this specific subject .. and do some real probing with these California agencies? 10+ years on this board .... no one takes a closer look at the real reasons why the PM doesn't return in some new form.
                              For a really fun comparison, go ride the Calico Mine Ride at Knott's. There are places where one can't even stick out an elbow without sc it on a wall.

                              Anyways, I still think a version of the PM is in fact coming back. TDA is being extremely secrative about the three plus years they have been refurbishing the rails. The fact that they took the effort to paint faux rust on them, not once, but twice! shows me how much they want to keep it a secret.

                              Most of the construction seems possibly related to the PM also; except for the changes to Dumbo. I certainly might be wrong but the news of 5,000 square feet of new que is fairly convincing.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by Sprig View Post
                                And, money, the budget to make it happen.
                                I'm pretty certain that I saw a video, about 5 years ago, where it was stated that there were ideas to bring the PM back and the budget was the main obstacle.
                                They might have had the budget if they didn’t waste money on that Frankenpark in Shanghai, or build in Hong Kong, or build knee jerk “us too” parks like Hollywood Studios or Animal Kingdom (which are poor) or overbuild hotels in Florida, or if they had done DCA right *the first time around*.

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                                • #56
                                  IMO-
                                  I can not see Disney putting up a New type Peoplemover......
                                  without redoing Tomorrowland..........
                                  I much I love the attraction......I just can not see Disney spending the money !
                                  Soaring like an EAGLE !

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    If they were going to bring back the Peoplemover, it wouldn't be for a few years- at least. They're gonna be marketing Star Wars land pretty heavily, then Marvel Land- they're not gonna want to take away from either of those projects by marketing the return of the Peoplemover. They'd likely save it until after the Star Wars/Marvel initial buzz dies off.

                                    But in all honesty, I don't think they're planning on bringing it back.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      So, I'll try and elaborate on what I can based off of memory as far as the grandfathering stuff.

                                      First off, let's talk about the way grandfathering works. With the way laws and regulations are made, they usually include clauses that state that things that existed prior to the law/regulation's implementation are exempt from the law, with exceptions. Grandfather clauses exist in part because of a concept called ex post facto, or after the fact. An ex post facto law makes something illegal after it has been established. The US Constitution and Bill of Rights both state that these laws are illegal, so grandfather clauses exist so that any laws that criminalize or prohibit new actions don't retroactively punish previous actions.

                                      So, with that, let's get to the laws. First up is ADA compliance - The American with Disabilities Act, which came into law in 1990, requires reasonable accommodations for people with disabilities. That includes things like handicap ramps, easy ability to board or disembark from multiple locations, etc. The grandfather clause for the law states that buildings (or, in our specific case, attractions) built before the law took effect only need to make reasonable accommodations, and weren't legally required to have things like handicap ramps, elevators, and the like. So, looking at the Disneyland Resort, the entirety of DCA was built with the ACA in mind, which is why all the rides (with I think a few exceptions like the Golden Zephyr, which I am unsure of just because I've never ridden it) have ramps or ways of boarding the ride without utilizing stairs, and why the DAS card is not as utilized in that park, as the rides already have reasonable accommodations already. Newer Disneyland rides such as Indiana Jones and and Splash Mountain similarly were built with this in mind, but not just with the queues, but also the rides themselves, as there is plenty of space between the ride vehicle and the walls (or in the case of Splash Mountain, multiple disembarking points) to allow for an ADA-compliant disembarking process in the case of emergency. The PeopleMover track in multiple spots does not actually qualify as being ADA-compliant, especially in the tunnels that go through the Tomorrowland buildings. I also don't remember if the elevator stopped on the loading platform, but I'm pretty sure the Tomorrowland '98 re-do removed any elevator functionality to get up to where the Rocket Rods were, so there's another factor.

                                      Next up is OSHA. OSHA is the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, and is again a federal agency under the Department of Labor (for you history nerds, OSHA was created under the presidency of SoCal native and man who opened/dedicated the monorail Richard Nixon). However, when people here refer to OSHA regulations, they are more likely referring to Cal/OSHA, otherwise known as DOSH. DOSH is a state-level organization similar to OSHA that tends to have more stringent regulations, for reasons that tend to do with politics so I'll leave that one alone. OSHA regulations affect both the DLR and WDW, while DOSH regulations only affect the DLR. DOSH regulations tend to also have grandfather clauses, but unlike ADA compliance, they do expect older attractions to be retrofitted to be compliant, as regulations do not break ex post facto. Anyone who has followed MiceAge/Micechat for years can recall several instances of recent construction/refurbishments meant to update older attractions and buildings to be DOSH compliant, such as the handrails added to the tops of the buildings in Fantasyland, or the continuing saga of Splash Mountain. The way grandfathering works for the DLR is that older attractions that have been continually open (with exceptions obviously made for refurbishments and temporary periods of inoperation) can continue to run, but eventual changes need to be made to make the ride DOSH-compliant, and maintenance work can lag behind if a ride isn't DOSH-compliant, which partly explains how Splash constantly looks like it's in a state of disrepair. Now, the transition from the PM to the Rocket Rods took place before the more recent wave of DOSH regulations, so it was able to exist, but after it was shut down and nothing new went up onto the tracks, the ride lost its exemption (I believe the particular year was 2005, but that's just something I heard, don't take it as the truth).

                                      So to answer a few questions that have come up, the monorail is grandfathered in to various things because it has operated continuously since opening (with small periods of downtime for refurbishments/changing track layout). Both stations are ADA-compliant, and the ride is not built to be maintained along the track or for emergency exits to take place along the track, as they instead tow broken trains to the nearest station. I assume the roundhouse where they perform maintenance on the monorails is DOSH-compliant, especially since they don't have to also maintain show quality as it is a backstage building. Calico Mine Ride at Knotts similarly falls under this idea, but interestingly enough they did run into DOSH issues with this ride and Timber Mountain Log Ride, specifically with the live scare actors during Scary Farm. DOSH came down hard because the actors were right next to the tracks, which is why there aren't scare actors on Calico anymore (they have returned to Timber Mountain, but on specially-constructed scare platforms to satisfy requirements).

                                      As for what the PeopleMover would need to do to become compliant again, there's a host of changes. They probably need a new loading station, especially so they could do a separate platform to load handicapped guests where the trains could actually come to a stop. If I had to place that, the area above the Star Trader/Starcade would be the best spot to do this. The tunnels through the buildings would need to be widened to allow for safer emergency exits, as would the outdoor track in a few places (I'd say this specifically includes the track over Autopia, but honestly the better fix here would be to just remove that track if possible). The wider track would also help the ride become DOSH-compliant by providing a safe walkway to move around the ride and perform maintenance. There are reports of the supports that the track sits on becoming less stable as a result of the Rocket Rods, and that those may need to be rebuilt as well. These are all things they could do, but they would require a will to throw a lot of money at bringing back a ride that, while it did eat up guests and provided kinetic energy to the land, also suffered from low ridership near the end, which partly contributed to its original closing. As is, with the Star Wars plans and upcoming Marvel plans, plus what I can imagine is Disney's growing itch to expand Fantasyland some more to include Frozen and bring over Be Our Guest from WDW, any potential PeopleMover rebuild/return is far down the line.

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                                      • #59
                                        About rumours sounding so convincing regarding the PM ..... there was a real nice poster from long ago, here, who claimed he knew insiders who said the PM tracks were coming down in 2 years time. That was some 7 years ago!
                                        MY SIGNATURE:
                                        Dear Peoplemover Fans, If you want to see a new attraction that at least mimics the 1967 Peoplemover in a future Tomorrowland remodel, you need to write to the powers-that-be, and let them know. If you don't - Then the next time Tomorrowland is remodeled, you will see a land barren of any "Peoplemover" type attraction.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          I think sadly PM pretty much has every reason a ride is removed attached to it:

                                          - Damage to infrastructure ( Thanks Rocket Rods! )

                                          - Prior lawsuits from rider deaths ( Friend of our who works for Safety in the Park mentioned those deaths didn't immediately effect the removal but created barriers that made a return difficult once it was removed )

                                          - The track itself being so intertwined throughout the land making it difficult for the park to create and update new and current attractions.

                                          - Some of the support structures actually unintentionally provide easy access to climbers ( this was pointed out by our friend who works in safety. There is a real issue with the support beam that runs by the line for the Galactic Grill. They often have either a CM standing there or they have a large piece of signage or both to prevent climbers which had become too common.)

                                          I think sadly the chances of bringing it back as it was are at around 2% at best but I think creating a new PM with a track system that is not as intertwined while still providing views of TL and FantasyLand are very viable and I suspect it's a bit of a constant challenge in the backs of many an Imagineers mind these days. Having it traverse all the way to SWGE I think is actually quite difficult as it would have to cut through FantasyLand or find someway to traverse the IASW complex which would be so costly I do not see it happening. I know they moved hills, DLRR tracks and rivers to accommodate SWGE but that was actually much easier then many of the things that would have to happen to go under, over or around FL.

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