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Yoooour Opinion Pleeeease....Winnie the Pooh

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  • Originally posted by MrLiver View Post

    Don't be so narrow in your definition of folklore. Talking animals have been a part of folklore for centuries. Nothing about the Pooh depicted in Critter Country is inherently British. Even if he were, it's still a fact of history that America was founded by the British and most of those American frontiersmen crossed the country with stories and traditions passed down through their British ancestors.

    So if a former Spanish colonial officer from the Caribbean can move to New Orleans and tell stories of Pirates, or slaves from Africa can tell stories of talking animals, or pretty much anyone anywhere can tell ghost stories, and they can all be part of "Frontierland" then certainly Pooh can be as well.
    That is some “backbending” rationalization, as someone said earlier. And the whole “argument” of Pooh not being portrayed as British, but American. so therefore “he fits”, is such hogwash.

    And by the way, the Pooh character and stories were created AFTER the First World War.

    Oh, and I point this out to you about Pirates in New Orleans:

    Jean Laffite (of Laffite’s Landing fame):

    Lafitte is believed to have been born either in Basque-France or the French colony of Saint-Domingue. By 1805, he operated a warehouse in New Orleans to help disperse the goods smuggled by his brother Pierre Lafitte. After the United States government passed the Embargo Act of 1807, the Lafittes moved their operations to an island in Barataria Bay, Louisiana. By 1810, their new portwas very successful; the Lafittes had a profitable smuggling operation and also started to engage in piracy.

    NOTE: Laffite was the real French spelling of the name, which is why Walt Disney used it that way in the attraction. “Lafitte” is an anglicisation.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

      Did you read Right Down Broadway’s post about the 1962 Disneyland Guidebook? Also, did you watch and then listen to the video I posted that has the speech Walt Disney made when he dedicated the new area, and he explains how NOS fits in Frontierland?
      Did you read the actual advertisement FOR New Orleans Square from Disney itself? The one posted in this very thread? The one I'm referring to?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

        It’s logic and reasoning, coming down from everything I’ve explained before. Does it not seem odd to you, that a “land” having absolutely nothing to do with Frontierland would be made to take up a chunk of it’s real estate, on the Rivers of America? Do you not think that after Walt’s death, that without the singular vision of it’s very strong leader, that things started to sway off course? Slowly at first, and then in a brutal landslide when Eisner took the reigns? So we got “Bear Country” when it really wasn’t nessecary (not the attraction, just the name), and then someone in an exercise in simple thinking, thought the name “Critter Country” was needed to follow on as well? Someone who probably forgot that NOS was part of the Frontierland ideology to begin with? I don't understsnd why something in writing is needed to see this. We know that “Frontierland” was Walt’s section of the park dedicated to American History and Folklore. We know Uncle Remus and his tales are American regional folklore. Just like Davy Crockett, just like Tom Sawyer. We also know from Walt Disney’s “Disneyland” TV show on ABC, that the frontier was portrayed in more than one time period and place. From the east coast of America in Revolutionary times, to the Indian Wars fought by Andrew Jackson in the South, to St Louis and New Orleans (with it’s own folklore and tales), and the great river boats that sailed the river between them. All the evidence is already right there. Forget the silly marketing name the corporation of Disney put there in the late 80’s. Think about what the spirit of the land is. What Walt designed. And keep a wide view of what the frontier in America was as the country grew and developed. Think of all that and then you see how a Brtish toy stuffed bear that comes to life and talks in a fictional English wood with other talking stuffed toys, next door to American southern folklore, that was passed down from slaves to their children, and to white children by their African-American nannies, makes absolutely no sense at all.

        Pooh was shoveled in there for one reason and one reason only. Marketing. Well that, and the fact that it was the cheapest and most expedient place to put him. Typical corporate Disney.
        So what you're basing all of this on is what you feel that area of the park should be?

        Comment


        • Here's the crux of the situation:

          We could go round and round on this every day and nothing will change. I'm not trying to change your opinion on what you want the park to be, because what you want the park to be and what it is are not the same thing. Nor would I waste my time attempting to change your mind, enjoy your personal opinion on this subject.

          But here is something I'm 100% sure of:

          There is basically a 0% chance you'll convince any of the tens of millions of Guests that visit Disneyland that Winnie the Pooh shouldn't be in Critter Country, or that Pirates of the Caribbean, The Haunted Mansion, and Splash Mountain are in Frontierland. At the same time there is that same 0% chance you'll convince Disney itself that the way you think the lands in their park should be laid out and which attractions should be in which lands are right and that they should rezone everything to fit your ideas on theming. And if you feel that you actually can get it changed to how you would like it to be, well, good luck to you.

          Two more things because I can't seem to help myself:

          1) For the Disneyland Railroad, New Orleans Square Station used to be the Frontierland Station. They changed it because that area of the park is not Frontierland.

          2) Disney has a very specific way of doing their lands. It's one or two E-ticket anchors and then usually some C and D ticket attractions as well. They do this in every land, in every park, in every country. Excepting only the entry land and food areas, neither of which need attractions. So in your idea of Frontierland, there are FOUR E-ticket attractions?? Big Thunder Mountain Railroad, Splash Mountain, Pirates of the Caribbean, and The Haunted Mansion? Yeaaaahhh, no. It doesn't work that way.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Disney Adventure View Post

            Did you read the actual advertisement FOR New Orleans Square from Disney itself? The one posted in this very thread? The one I'm referring to?
            Yeah, the one that calls New Orleans the Paris of the American Frontier.
            Last edited by Blue Lagoon; 05-08-2018, 04:11 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Disney Adventure View Post
              Here's the crux of the situation:

              We could go round and round on this every day and nothing will change. I'm not trying to change your opinion on what you want the park to be, because what you want the park to be and what it is are not the same thing. Nor would I waste my time attempting to change your mind, enjoy your personal opinion on this subject.

              But here is something I'm 100% sure of:

              There is basically a 0% chance you'll convince any of the tens of millions of Guests that visit Disneyland that Winnie the Pooh shouldn't be in Critter Country, or that Pirates of the Caribbean, The Haunted Mansion, and Splash Mountain are in Frontierland. At the same time there is that same 0% chance you'll convince Disney itself that the way you think the lands in their park should be laid out and which attractions should be in which lands are right and that they should rezone everything to fit your ideas on theming. And if you feel that you actually can get it changed to how you would like it to be, well, good luck to you.

              Two more things because I can't seem to help myself:

              1) For the Disneyland Railroad, New Orleans Square Station used to be the Frontierland Station. They changed it because that area of the park is not Frontierland.

              2) Disney has a very specific way of doing their lands. It's one or two E-ticket anchors and then usually some C and D ticket attractions as well. They do this in every land, in every park, in every country. Excepting only the entry land and food areas, neither of which need attractions. So in your idea of Frontierland, there are FOUR E-ticket attractions?? Big Thunder Mountain Railroad, Splash Mountain, Pirates of the Caribbean, and The Haunted Mansion? Yeaaaahhh, no. It doesn't work that way.
              *****Actually the Railroad is “New Orleans Square/Frontierlandstation.*****

              I don’t have to convince Disney to change anything. NOS and CC are part of Frontierland. It doesn’t matter what they print in the park guide they give you at the ticket booth.

              And it’s not their park. It will never be their park. It’s Walt Disney’s park, and they can either eff-it up, or not. But Disneyland will never be their park. None of those suits will ever own it.
              Attached Files
              Last edited by Blue Lagoon; 05-08-2018, 04:13 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                *****Actually the Railroad is “New Orleans Square/Frontierlandstation.*****

                I don’t have to convince Disney to change anything. NOS and CC are part of Frontierland. It doesn’t matter what they print in the park guide they give you at the ticket booth.
                Wow. I was willing to compromise with you and admit that New Orleans Square probably started off as a subset of Frontierland, but can't bend on this one. Today, New Orleans Square is 100% a different land with a different theme and different design set. In the late 90s/early 2000s, WDI did a sort of place making project to pull New Orleans out of the original 1850's theme and place it more in the 1920s. They changed the music, added some Jazz, changed the costumes, and most importantly changed the style guide and backstory in their official documents. They did that specicially to tear it apart from whatever loose connection it still had with Frontierland.

                And you can say it was a terrible decision and you don't like it, and certainly that's fine. But it is fact. It happened. There is no use denying it's a separate land today.

                And it’s not their park.
                It is.


                It will never be their park.

                It is.


                ​​​​​
                It’s Walt Disney’s park, and they can either eff-it up, or not. But Disneyland will never be their park. None of those suits will ever own it.
                Shareholders own it. They elect the board and the board runs the park how the shareholders demand. And the shareholders demand that New Orleans Square be treated as a separate land. And also demand that Pooh is in theme for Critter Country, which is also a separate land. We all voted and that was the result of the vote. Wooo democracy!

                EDIT: Forgot to add: Why do you think they have to call out New Orleans and Frontierland separate in the sign if they aren't separate entities?
                Last edited by MrLiver; 05-09-2018, 06:46 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                  That is some “backbending” rationalization, as someone said earlier. And the whole “argument” of Pooh not being portrayed as British, but American. so therefore “he fits”, is such hogwash.
                  I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Pooh seems pretty American to me, and certainly fits in Critter Country.

                  And by the way, the Pooh character and stories were created AFTER the First World War.
                  But they seemingly don't take place in any real time frame. That's why they fit.

                  Oh, and I point this out to you about Pirates in New Orleans:
                  Funny, Walt must have screwed up when he decided to name it "Pirates of the Caribbean" instead of "Pirates of New Orleans" or "Pirates of the Golf of Mexico." Maybe that's something else modern WDI should look into correcting.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MrLiver View Post
                    EDIT: Forgot to add: Why do you think they have to call out New Orleans and Frontierland separate in the sign if they aren't separate entities?
                    Because it’s a sub-themed area of Frontierland

                    New Orleans Square, Frontierland, Disneyland. You know, like Marceline, Missouri, USA. The address line goes from smallest area to largest encompassing area.

                    Attached Files
                    Last edited by Blue Lagoon; 05-15-2018, 02:27 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                      Yeah, the one that calls New Orleans the Paris of the American Frontier.
                      You keep saying this like it means something. The American Frontier is not Frontierland any more than the Nile is Adventureland. What is in Disneyland are just representations of the real things. So you can keep saying that quote that New Orleans is the Paris of the American Frontier but it still doesn't make New Orleans Square a part of Frontierland. Find a quote that actually says what you are trying to say.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                        Because it’s a sub-themed area of Frontierland

                        New Orleans Square, Frontierland, Disneyland. You know, like Marceline, Missouri, USA. The address line goes from smallest area to largest encompassing area.
                        Your outdated picture also says "Haunted House", so I guess everyone who calls it The Haunted Mansion are wrong because originally they concieved of it being called Haunted House and nothing ever changes in Disneyland and we should only go by vague quotes and concept art from over a half a century ago when they were originally designing things and never ever call anything by what it is actually called or refer to things by where they actually are.

                        You and everyone who agrees with you that Pirates of the Caribbean, Haunted Mansion, and Splash Mountain are really in Frontierland should pile into a mid-size car and take a road trip to Disneyland.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Disney Adventure View Post

                          You keep saying this like it means something. The American Frontier is not Frontierland any more than the Nile is Adventureland. What is in Disneyland are just representations of the real things. So you can keep saying that quote that New Orleans is the Paris of the American Frontier but it still doesn't make New Orleans Square a part of Frontierland. Find a quote that actually says what you are trying to say.
                          It was done in the 1962 guidebook quote that Right Down Broadway posted.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Blue Lagoon View Post

                            It was done in the 1962 guidebook quote that Right Down Broadway posted.
                            Oh, so like before New Orleans Square even existed I guess. Interesting. Kind of like The Haunted Mansion being referred to as the Haunted House on your map before it was ever actually open. Did you know that Pirates of the Caribbean was actually conceived of as a walk-through wax museum attraction? I don't know if you've ever been on it but it isn't in fact a walk-through wax museum attraction, it's a boat ride through many pirate scenes with animatronic figures.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Disney Adventure View Post

                              Oh, so like before New Orleans Square even existed I guess. Interesting. Kind of like The Haunted Mansion being referred to as the Haunted House on your map before it was ever actually open. Did you know that Pirates of the Caribbean was actually conceived of as a walk-through wax museum attraction? I don't know if you've ever been on it but it isn't in fact a walk-through wax museum attraction, it's a boat ride through many pirate scenes with animatronic figures.
                              Yeah, I know about Pirates and the Mansion, but that still doesn’t change the fact that NOS was conceived and built as part of Frontierland.

                              Comment

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