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Is Disneyland becoming a LESS popular attraction for non-locals?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by BiggestDisneyFan View Post

    I think that the answer to that, for some people, is that APs frequenting the parks to congregate is a bad thing for everybody else, because the more that the same guests visit the parks, the more crowded the parks will be. While the idea that more repeat visitors could result in more crowding definitely is sound, ascribing all or even most of the crowding to people with APs, or even just locals, is a pretty simplistic view of a situation with numerous factors.
    In a nutshell: should Disneyland be treated like the neighborhood mall?

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    • #62
      Originally posted by longbeachaztec View Post

      The one bit of inside info I most wish I could see is what Disney considers optimal capacity. What's the magic number above which management decides it's "too crowded?"

      It would help solve an awful lot of debates around here.
      That is a great question but in my opinion if they had to shut down the gates every day due to capacity limit I'm almost positive that would make them just as happy.

      Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't see it any differently. But sure maybe there is some number that they have that reaches their threshold of more then enough.

      But the reality is none of this is perceived as 'bad' when you work in an industry where the level of attendance is the bragging rights of that industry. Every industry has it. For television, its ratings. For movies its box office figures. For hotels its occupancy rates. For theme parks, its attendance. And call me naive but I don't know any theme park company that would brag over the idea that they found a way for LESS people to come to their park than before. That's just not how it works and why this 'problem' is not a problem for the people who runs these parks.

      And for all the debate about it, Disneyland wasn't even the most crowded theme park last year, it was the Magic Kingdom by over two million more guests although DL attendance had a higher increase by 2%. But this is exactly what they fight for, to remain at the top. MK and DL being number one and two in the world and managed to pass TDL which was number one for most of its existence only tells them they are doing something extremely right. And Tokyo Disneyland has had those crowds certain people here are complaining about for decades. I lived in Tokyo for years, I don't ever remember any discussion how that park being overcrowded as a 'problem'.

      The top three theme parks on the planet are Disney's and the American parks finally manage to beat Tokyo that held the crown most of its existence. No one gets fired over that, they only gets raises. Now try to convince them they should be thinking about being in a lower spot next year to appease some people. No one in business anywhere has that type of mentality. I would defy anyone to disagree with that.
      Last edited by Fctiger; 06-14-2018, 01:35 PM.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by HiddenMickey87 View Post

        In a nutshell: should Disneyland be treated like the neighborhood mall?
        But I doubt that's a question Disney even cares about. If that was the case they wouldn't offer passes where you can literally go every day of the year in the first place. They have had this pass since the 80s. Every theme park has a pass like that. So the answer for them is clearly yes, as long as people buy a pass which gives them unlimited access they don't care how many times you go and treat it like going to the mall. They have been signaling that to people for decades now, am I wrong?

        And they built DTD next to the thing, which is literally a mall.
        Last edited by Fctiger; 06-14-2018, 01:46 PM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Fctiger View Post

          But I don't that's a question Disney even cares about. If that was the case they wouldn't offer passes where you can literally go every day of the year in the first place. They have had this pass since the 80s. Every theme park has a pass like that. So the answer is clearly yes, as long as people buy a pass which gives them unlimited access they don't care how many times you go and treat it like going to the mall. They have been signaling that to people for decades now, am I wrong?

          And they built DTD next to the thing, which is literally a mall.
          They do once it starts causing tourists to stay away. If just attendance was all they were after, they wouldn't have AP tiers. They'd have one cheap AP and no blockout dates. Boom...Max attendance all the time. Easily the most-attended theme park in the world.

          But instead, they're very worried about customer mix and corresponding profit levels.. Their nightmare scenario would be high-spending tourists deeming it a bad experience or, gasp, not even being granted admission at all because the park is full.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Beavis View Post

            They do once it starts causing tourists to stay away. If just attendance was all they were after, they wouldn't have AP tiers. They'd have one cheap AP and no blockout dates. Boom...Max attendance all the time. Easily the most-attended theme park in the world.

            But instead, they're very worried about customer mix and corresponding profit levels.. Their nightmare scenario would be high-spending tourists deeming it a bad experience or, gasp, not even being granted admission at all because the park is full.
            But this is what we have been talking about here (it comes back full circle lol) and I said directly to you that I think DLR has basically decided on a strategy to focus on the locals as TDR has been doing for decades more so than the vacationers.

            This is EXACTLY the point I been making in this entire thread. They don't CARE about pushing the tourists away because they are simply pushing them to WDW which needs them more anyway and spends WAY more money there. That's my guess of what they been doing for awhile now. DLR essentially keeps the locals or regional guests, most of vacationers and international guests go to WDW.

            And it doesn't seem to be a bad ploy since MK is the number one spot and DL is the number two spot.

            They tried that strategy of making non-locals a bigger mix back in 2001 and it didn't work as they wanted so the focus has returned mostly to locals and where its been ever since. They actively tried to make DLR a tourist destination and pushed the locals out. It backfired. So basically the dynamic switched and been that way up to today. I keep saying this and it keeps getting ignored for some reason.

            But clearly they have no problem getting vacationers because GCH and DLH is practically sold out every summer. So its not like they don't get them, they do, simply not at the level needed to sustain the parks all year. That's where the strategy of pushing them to WDW comes in because its the tourists that keep that place busy all year, not the locals.
            Last edited by Fctiger; 06-14-2018, 02:44 PM.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by BiggestDisneyFan View Post

              I think that the answer to that, for some people, is that APs frequenting the parks to congregate is a bad thing for everybody else, because the more that the same guests visit the parks, the more crowded the parks will be. While the idea that more repeat visitors could result in more crowding definitely is sound, ascribing all or even most of the crowding to people with APs, or even just locals, is a pretty simplistic view of a situation with numerous factors.
              It's not about the crowds, it's about the judgment that APs who frequent the park to "hang out" is somehow a bad thing. Who has any right to say how anyone who pays to enter the parks should spend their time? What meter are we using to determine a "quality" visit? Does a person who spends six hours in the parks riding four rides and eating one meal somehow have a preferred visit over the person who discovered his favorite high school teacher retired and became a Dapper Dan, and they chatted all afternoon between sets? (By the way, that last scenario happened to me.) No one has any right to cast judgment on another for the amount of time spent in the parks or what they do during their visit.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Fctiger View Post

                But I doubt that's a question Disney even cares about. If that was the case they wouldn't offer passes where you can literally go every day of the year in the first place. They have had this pass since the 80s. Every theme park has a pass like that. So the answer for them is clearly yes, as long as people buy a pass which gives them unlimited access they don't care how many times you go and treat it like going to the mall. They have been signaling that to people for decades now, am I wrong?

                And they built DTD next to the thing, which is literally a mall.
                My point wasn't so much what Disney thinks, but what park-goers think, as that will shape their views of the AP program. Not saying what's right or wrong, just that people who think that Disneyland shouldn't just be treated as a mall, probably argue that the large number of AP holders -- who are enticed by low monthly payments -- are at least partially responsible for Disneyland's overcrowding.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by HiddenMickey87 View Post

                  My point wasn't so much what Disney thinks, but what park-goers think, as that will shape their views of the AP program. Not saying what's right or wrong, just that peole who think that Disneyland shouldn't just be treated as a mall, probably argue that the large number of AP holders -- who are enticed by low monthly payments -- are at least partially responsible for Disneyland's overcrowding.
                  The AP program has been there for decades now. I'm sure their minds were made up long ago. I don't really think that matters one way or the other in the big picture. People here seems to think Disney has been getting it all wrong for a long time now. They still go anyway.


                  And I'm going to say it again, it doesn't matter what we think about the overcrowding so much as it matter what Disney thinks and they made it clear by their actions what they think, hence the overcrowding, I'm going to guess the reason they offer the lower payments for APs is to increase the crowds. That's the disconnect with this constant debate. People argue it as if the surge of the AP program has caused an unwanted effect of a crowded park while ignoring the idea that was probably Disney's intention for doing it in the first place.

                  I say that because I keep hearing year after year of people coming up with 'solutions' on how to make crowds smaller. I don't think there has been one idea or suggestion here that hasn't been suggested everywhere else over and over again for years, the biggest of course end the monthly payment program. A lot of them are really good suggestions at that. But take my word when I say Disney knows and could implement every single of one those if they actually wanted to. They don't for a reason because they don't want a less crowded park and that's what people have to at least acknowledge regardless how they personally feel about it.
                  Last edited by Fctiger; 06-14-2018, 03:43 PM.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Fctiger View Post

                    That is a great question but in my opinion if they had to shut down the gates every day due to capacity limit I'm almost positive that would make them just as happy.

                    Maybe I'm wrong but I just don't see it any differently. But sure maybe there is some number that they have that reaches their threshold of more then enough.

                    But the reality is none of this is perceived as 'bad' when you work in an industry where the level of attendance is the bragging rights of that industry. Every industry has it. For television, its ratings. For movies its box office figures. For hotels its occupancy rates. For theme parks, its attendance. And call me naive but I don't know any theme park company that would brag over the idea that they found a way for LESS people to come to their park than before. That's just not how it works and why this 'problem' is not a problem for the people who runs these parks.
                    If absolute max attendance was the goal, I think Disney could easily sell enough tickets/passes to shut down the gates every day. I doubt that's really their goal.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Fctiger View Post

                      But this is what we have been talking about here (it comes back full circle lol) and I said directly to you that I think DLR has basically decided on a strategy to focus on the locals as TDR has been doing for decades more so than the vacationers.
                      Totally disagree. Apples to apples, they prefer a tourist visit to an AP visit, hands down. Tourism is simply seasonal, and the AP program allows them to smooth out attendance accordingly.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by longbeachaztec View Post

                        If absolute max attendance was the goal, I think Disney could easily sell enough tickets/passes to shut down the gates every day. I doubt that's really their goal.
                        Yup. They want the highest-spending average admission. A park full of AP holders does not deliver that.

                        Comment


                        • #72

                          I agree
                          Disney wants and needs ,both Local and Tourism !
                          Disney Management is responsible for Disneyland's overcrowding........way they run , the Parks .
                          And Disney likes , when the parks, PACK !

                          Last edited by Eagleman; 06-14-2018, 04:26 PM.
                          Soaring like an EAGLE !

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Beavis View Post

                            Totally disagree. Apples to apples, they prefer a tourist visit to an AP visit, hands down. Tourism is simply seasonal, and the AP program allows them to smooth out attendance accordingly.
                            Of course Disney still wants tourists, I'm only saying they aren't the main priority like they are in WDW. Again everything everyone is arguing about seems to prove that. Simply because its not enough of them. I mean you just stated they want a tourist over locals but then you state the AP program is pushing out the tourists. Also the entire premise of this OP is that less non-locals are coming to the park partly creating an over-reliance of the AP program. Most seems to be in agreement of that as well even if we can't agree on how big that impact is. So what I am missing? Its pretty evident they see DLR as the more local park and WDW as the tourist park and act accordingly, especially if its true that 2/3rds of the attendance comes from locals.

                            And the majority of the high tourists mostly go to WDW anyway, which is what I was saying. DLR just doesn't have the size or content to get high end tourists like WDW does.
                            Last edited by Fctiger; 06-14-2018, 04:49 PM.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by longbeachaztec View Post

                              If absolute max attendance was the goal, I think Disney could easily sell enough tickets/passes to shut down the gates every day. I doubt that's really their goal.
                              No I don't think thats the 'goal' I'm saying I don't think they would care if that happens. No I think what the REAL goal is is to simply get more attendance up at DCA as DL is now. Also why it was a smart move to give the Deluxe users the option to go to DCA on the days they can't go to DL next summer. Thats going to drive that park up a lot since its roughly half of what DL is now. And DL is going to be crowded no matter what.

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                              • #75
                                The most fascinating thing about DL customers justifying DL crowding is how brand loyalty changes the perception of value. Airlines do essentially the same thing to their customers -- charging more for less, crowding the planes -- yet none of their customers get on internet forums and social media to offer justifications for them. It's unique to the Disney brand that so many of its customers post justifications for, if not defenses of, the hardball corporate business practices that crowd the parks and diminish the quality of experience; indeed, many of them deny that there has been any diminishing of the quality of experience.
                                "With the acquisition of Marvel and now of Lucasfilm,
                                Disney may have finally found the grail. You don't need
                                imagination or art. All you need is a brand."

                                - Neil Gabler

                                "I didn't know the story of baby Jesus could be any better,
                                until Thor told it to me."
                                -
                                Young girl at Disneyland's 2017 Candlelight Ceremony
                                narrated by Chris Hemsworth

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                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
                                  The most fascinating thing about DL customers justifying DL crowding is how brand loyalty changes the perception of value. Airlines do essentially the same thing to their customers -- charging more for less, crowding the planes -- yet none of their customers get on internet forums and social media to offer justifications for them. It's unique to the Disney brand that so many of its customers post justifications for, if not defenses of, the hardball corporate business practices that crowd the parks and diminish the quality of experience; indeed, many of them deny that there has been any diminishing of the quality of experience.

                                  Disney going deny, that there has been any diminishing of the quality of experience ,in the park because .....
                                  So they can sell -Dining package-Max Pass -and other's Cash Grab .....
                                  That why they love crowds in the parks!
                                  Soaring like an EAGLE !

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
                                    The most fascinating thing about DL customers justifying DL crowding is how brand loyalty changes the perception of value. Airlines do essentially the same thing to their customers -- charging more for less, crowding the planes -- yet none of their customers get on internet forums and social media to offer justifications for them. It's unique to the Disney brand that so many of its customers post justifications for, if not defenses of, the hardball corporate business practices that crowd the parks and diminish the quality of experience; indeed, many of them deny that there has been any diminishing of the quality of experience.
                                    Its just reality. Of course like anyone I would want lower priced passes and a less busy park so I can jump on Indy 8 times in an hour in the middle of summer. Who wouldn't want that? I would also love to be able to afford to stay in the GCH, but I can't afford $600 a night room. Does anyone think the GCH is worth $600 a night? I'm going to say no. And yet it still sells out most of the summer anyway. Am I 'justifying' them for charging people a ridiculous night to stay there, no. Do I understand, of course. Do I get upset that I can't go because I can't afford it, no. Is making post after post telling them to reduce the price so I can stay a few nights will change that? Once again, no.

                                    Crowding is a fact of life in theme parks. I been to over 40 of them in my life, many more crowded than this one. I don't get on the internet and post about those either. Does it suck, yeah. Does it make me want to go less, definitely. But none of this is a 'right' which is what people seem to view it as oddly, an entitlement, which is what this mostly sounds like.. Nothing has to be justified other than they have the right to run their business any way they want but that's the libertarian in me. And we have a right not to partake in that business if we oppose how they run it. That's really all anyone can do or am I wrong?
                                    Last edited by Fctiger; 06-14-2018, 07:07 PM.

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                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
                                      The most fascinating thing about DL customers justifying DL crowding is how brand loyalty changes the perception of value. Airlines do essentially the same thing to their customers -- charging more for less, crowding the planes -- yet none of their customers get on internet forums and social media to offer justifications for them. It's unique to the Disney brand that so many of its customers post justifications for, if not defenses of, the hardball corporate business practices that crowd the parks and diminish the quality of experience; indeed, many of them deny that there has been any diminishing of the quality of experience.
                                      the term "cult" comes to mind...
                                      L + L = R

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by Infrared Sight View Post
                                        I'm a non-local who used to have an annual passport. I grew up in Anaheim and had a pass for years and years. Then I moved to Utah and still had a pass. The last time I had one was in 2009. I have since gotten a pass for Knotts and haven't looked back. The reasons are plenty...Price keeps going up and up, now you can't even add parking to deluxe pass I mean wtf? The park is body to body people at all times, there were times I would always go while I lived in Cali and it would be dead, now there is no more of that at all. It's just a terrible experience and you don't get that much bang for your bucks. I get passes for my family for Knotts cheaper then a one day park hopper at Disneyland for family. Also no blackout days. Knotts also has no crazy crowds when I decide to go so it's an enjoyable time the whole time I am there. I also have more money to spend on merchandise and can eat in the park without worrying about breaking the bank. Plus I have money leftover to schedule other vacations elsewhere if I want. It's just great. I wish I could go to Disneyland much more then I do, but alas I just can't. It's not worth the headaches.
                                        Sad but true.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by BiggestDisneyFan View Post

                                          I think that the answer to that, for some people, is that APs frequenting the parks to congregate is a bad thing for everybody else, because the more that the same guests visit the parks, the more crowded the parks will be. While the idea that more repeat visitors could result in more crowding definitely is sound, ascribing all or even most of the crowding to people with APs, or even just locals, is a pretty simplistic view of a situation with numerous factors.
                                          Exactly! Disneyland is nothing more than a convenient hangout for local APs with nothing else to do. Once upon a time it was a special destination. Now it's just the mall.

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