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  • #81
    Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post


    Note to Eagleman: "So you are saying you don't have fun there? Do you actually walk around thinking what a joke?" is another of the "Are you saying _____?" troll baits -- the tried-and-true troll technique of twisting a post's meaning and batting it back in the form of a loaded question, to foment an argument. As in:








    All valid questions.

    I think there is a little projection going on when you call me a troll. I guess anyone that asks questions you do not approve of, you label them a troll. Also, don't feel like finding the posts, but you have said before to not feed the troll and ignore them. If you believe that, and you believe I am a troll, why are you responding?

    Comment


    • #82
      Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post


      Note to Eagleman: "So you are saying you don't have fun there? Do you actually walk around thinking what a joke?" is another of the "Are you saying _____?" troll baits -- the tried-and-true troll technique of twisting a post's meaning and batting it back in the form of a loaded question, to foment an argument. As in:








      Don't forget how a troll deliberately singles out particular people, conveniently bragging about how much they love the things those people hate while deliberately ignoring posts about rule/law-breaking in the park; and how their own rules about kindness apparently don't extend to themselves (i.e. the "little hands" post in the Trump thread and the subtle jab about how lousy seats in Blue Bayou are reserved for out-of-state folks).

      Comment


      • #83
        Originally posted by WaltDisney'sAlec View Post
        I think there is a version of Paradise Pier that truly could have worked. I'm comfortable moving away from Walt's anti-beach vision in this regard. I think his instinct to be different from Coney Island or trash-filled amusement parks was correct, but now Disney had an opportunity just to carve out a little slice of Americana with this sliver of the park. Maybe will get that the next time we get a retheme (in say 7-10 years, for the 3rd time).
        The stories of Walt's hatred for beach side amusement piers is mostly apocryphal at this point though right? We all somehow "know" that he hated them, and wanted Disneyland to be different, but we're not sure why. Since Walt himself is gone, we can't stop to ask him what he really meant. Was it the rides he hated? Maybe specifically wooden rollercoasters? Was it the cleanliness? The upkeep? The atmosphere? The alcohol? The smoking? We don't know. Is it really fair to make the statement that he would have hated the pier based on some unverifiable handed down information lost to time? Probably not.
        ​​
        On a personal level, I would have much rather they continued to flesh out the original Paradise Pier theme over time, than add the Pixar theme. But I understand why they did it.

        I just get the feeling that incorporating Pixar IP felt much like a crutch to support an area that never really drew crowds on its own.
        ​​​​​​I think the Pier area has been a pretty decent workhorse for DLR as far as popularity goes. As others mentioned before, I think the primary concern was to balance out the loss of Bugs Land and to bring more IP to the park. It wasn't a condemnation of the type of attractions present in Paradise Pier as much as it was an opportunity to align it with the rest of the park (brand association). Whether we find it personally detestable or not, they have seemingly found greater success in pushing their brands and IP over their park properties, and this change over allows them to continue that. It's easier to sell a ride based on the Incredibles (a known property with beloved and recognizable characters) than it is to push a rollercoaster that harkens back to a romantic vision of seaside piers. That's just the sad reality of it.

        When I go to the DLR, I'm really not there to sit on the back of one of Jesse's Critters. I frankly don't know anyone who explicitly wished for it.
        I think surmises a different issue showing why so many fans are disappointed in these changes. On some level, we understand that parks NEED a mix of attractions of different types and sizes. As I said above, the pier actually had a pretty decent history of pulling in people and keeping them entertained, even way back at the opening of DCA. The pier was, up until last year, one of the areas least touched by the expansion effort. The derided carnival rides still poking along and pulling in people a decade and a half after they were built.

        But at some surface level, the fans always want the more advanced cutting edge, e ticket thrill ride attraction. They want their dessert for dinner. Sure they may realize deep down that the long term survival and health of a park requires these basic flat rides and roller coasters, but they keep craving for that dessert. Folks had grand visions of Mystic Manor or some other non-IP, trackless dark ride being placed behind the Pier, tying it altogether. They wanted to have the next big thing, and the Pixar remodel dashed a lot of those hopes.

        But when you look at the core of the issue: there was a carousel there before, and there is a carousel there now. Maybe the IP changed over to be a little bit more relevant to the newer generations, but it will still be there plugging along for years to come.

        Comment


        • #84
          Originally posted by HiddenMickey87 View Post

          Don't forget how a troll deliberately singles out particular people, conveniently bragging about how much they love the things those people hate while deliberately ignoring posts about rule/law-breaking in the park; and how their own rules about kindness apparently don't extend to themselves (i.e. the "little hands" post in the Trump thread and the subtle jab about how lousy seats in Blue Bayou are reserved for out-of-state folks).
          A little more projection. Talking about things someone loves that other do not makes a troll? I do not see how that works, but ok. Troll on my trolling friend.

          Comment


          • #85
            Originally posted by MrLiver View Post

            The stories of Walt's hatred for beach side amusement piers is mostly apocryphal at this point though right? We all somehow "know" that he hated them, and wanted Disneyland to be different, but we're not sure why. Since Walt himself is gone, we can't stop to ask him what he really meant. Was it the rides he hated? Maybe specifically wooden rollercoasters? Was it the cleanliness? The upkeep? The atmosphere? The alcohol? The smoking? We don't know. Is it really fair to make the statement that he would have hated the pier based on some unverifiable handed down information lost to time? Probably not.
            ​​
            On a personal level, I would have much rather they continued to flesh out the original Paradise Pier theme over time, than add the Pixar theme. But I understand why they did it.



            ​​​​​​I think the Pier area has been a pretty decent workhorse for DLR as far as popularity goes. As others mentioned before, I think the primary concern was to balance out the loss of Bugs Land and to bring more IP to the park. It wasn't a condemnation of the type of attractions present in Paradise Pier as much as it was an opportunity to align it with the rest of the park (brand association). Whether we find it personally detestable or not, they have seemingly found greater success in pushing their brands and IP over their park properties, and this change over allows them to continue that. It's easier to sell a ride based on the Incredibles (a known property with beloved and recognizable characters) than it is to push a rollercoaster that harkens back to a romantic vision of seaside piers. That's just the sad reality of it.



            I think surmises a different issue showing why so many fans are disappointed in these changes. On some level, we understand that parks NEED a mix of attractions of different types and sizes. As I said above, the pier actually had a pretty decent history of pulling in people and keeping them entertained, even way back at the opening of DCA. The pier was, up until last year, one of the areas least touched by the expansion effort. The derided carnival rides still poking along and pulling in people a decade and a half after they were built.

            But at some surface level, the fans always want the more advanced cutting edge, e ticket thrill ride attraction. They want their dessert for dinner. Sure they may realize deep down that the long term survival and health of a park requires these basic flat rides and roller coasters, but they keep craving for that dessert. Folks had grand visions of Mystic Manor or some other non-IP, trackless dark ride being placed behind the Pier, tying it altogether. They wanted to have the next big thing, and the Pixar remodel dashed a lot of those hopes.

            But when you look at the core of the issue: there was a carousel there before, and there is a carousel there now. Maybe the IP changed over to be a little bit more relevant to the newer generations, but it will still be there plugging along for years to come.
            Actually, we do know. Walt is on the record speaking about cleanliness and alcohol.

            Comment


            • #86
              Originally posted by HiddenMickey87 View Post

              Actually, we do know. Walt is on the record speaking about cleanliness and alcohol.
              Walt is on record saying a lot of things. Again, saying what Walt would have wanted is not possible to know.

              Comment


              • #87
                Originally posted by MrLiver View Post

                The Paradise Pier theme (or lack of it) was derided pretty heavily from the usual folks here. Stating that Pixar Pier is a downgrade, would be to admit that there was actually some value in the non-IP, location-specific Paradise Pier theme.
                You can absolutely take something people find to have little or no value and make it worse. I would never voluntarily opt to eat kale, but you could make it even less appealing to me by adding raw onions to it.


                Personally, I think there are some nice parts to the Paradise Pier, post DCA 2.0 upgrades, but it has always seemed like they stopped far short of the upgrades that PP needed. Now, the parts that had been left untouched have been given an entirely different personality than some of the parts that were upgraded. While I think that the Carrousel is fine for what it is and I believe that the 'Pixarification' of PP was intended to make it more kid-friendly, to make up for the loss of Bugs Land, the new PP is inconsistent and much of the recent changes feel cheap.
                Dead Mice Tell No Tails!

                Comment


                • #88
                  Originally posted by BiggestDisneyFan View Post
                  You can absolutely take something people find to have little or no value and make it worse. I would never voluntarily opt to eat kale, but you could make it even less appealing to me by adding raw onions to it.


                  Personally, I think there are some nice parts to the Paradise Pier, post DCA 2.0 upgrades, but it has always seemed like they stopped far short of the upgrades that PP needed. Now, the parts that had been left untouched have been given an entirely different personality than some of the parts that were upgraded. While I think that the Carrousel is fine for what it is and I believe that the 'Pixarification' of PP was intended to make it more kid-friendly, to make up for the loss of Bugs Land, the new PP is inconsistent and much of the recent changes feel cheap.
                  I agree with what you this, but I am coming from the point of an adult. There are lots of things very popular with children, i just don't get. Cartoons, shows, movies, books, records, the list goes on.

                  That is why I stop just short of saying it feels cheap. While it may to me, it is not really meant for me, it is meant for children. If they enjoy it, and it makes them happy, I do not see this as a bad thing.

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Originally posted by Barnabus Collins View Post

                    I agree with what you this, but I am coming from the point of an adult. There are lots of things very popular with children, i just don't get. Cartoons, shows, movies, books, records, the list goes on.

                    That is why I stop just short of saying it feels cheap. While it may to me, it is not really meant for me, it is meant for children. If they enjoy it, and it makes them happy, I do not see this as a bad thing.
                    All of Disneyland is made for the enjoyment of children, young and old. However, while I think the carrousel seems cute, fun and pretty nice for a very cartoony carrousel, I think that much of the rest of the Pixar Pier changes seem slapdash and like the concept was rushed. That's why I call it cheap. Maybe a better way to put it is that it seems below Disney's basic standards for quality of experience. It's much more DCA 1.0 than 2.0.
                    Dead Mice Tell No Tails!

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      Originally posted by BiggestDisneyFan View Post

                      All of Disneyland is made for the enjoyment of children, young and old. However, while I think the carrousel seems cute, fun and pretty nice for a very cartoony carrousel, I think that much of the rest of the Pixar Pier changes seem slapdash and like the concept was rushed. That's why I call it cheap. Maybe a better way to put it is that it seems below Disney's basic standards for quality of experience. It's much more DCA 1.0 than 2.0.
                      I will completely agree with that. The slapdash to me came because they tried to many ways to go about it, and never stuck with one. After 1.0, they had the big blue sky thing about all the changes and upgrades that were coming. I believe they were to be in phases, and they never got to the last phase, before Pixar Pier was announced.

                      I think the re-do was originally victorian themed, but not sure. After the first phase or so, they decided to go straight to Pixar, and kept anything that came close to fitting in the land.

                      I see why many see the disjointedness of the area, but it still has a lot of good to me. I do wish that it was themed a little better, but my hope is, it is just a matter of time.

                      While I may not like the current look, I can see past that for what I do enjoy. Right now, Lamplight Lounge is one of my favorite places to eat. Just love the way it looks and feels.

                      I am a fan of the Little Mermaid ride, it is a good fun quick off your feet type ride (not part of the pier, but close enough that I like to include it). I like the coaster, all in all it is a really fun coaster to me. Midway Mania is always a blast, always fun to compete with your group. The carousel, not the greatest, but not bad. Many are not fans of boardwalk games, but I enjoy them on occasion, and I like the option.

                      I also like the shops, it is a nice area to walk around and do a little shopping.

                      And then the fun wheel, or whatever is called, that is a great ride.

                      If the pier was filled with nothing but attractions I could not have fun with, I would say it is a waste. But there is so much there I actually enjoy, that I look past the "bad", and enjoy what I see as the "good".

                      I know I am in the minority on this, but I still cannot see only negative for an area I have had good times in.

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by MrLiver View Post

                        On a personal level, I would have much rather they continued to flesh out the original Paradise Pier theme over time, than add the Pixar theme. But I understand why they did it.

                        ​​​​​​I think the Pier area has been a pretty decent workhorse for DLR as far as popularity goes. As others mentioned before, I think the primary concern was to balance out the loss of Bugs Land and to bring more IP to the park. It wasn't a condemnation of the type of attractions present in Paradise Pier as much as it was an opportunity to align it with the rest of the park (brand association). Whether we find it personally detestable or not, they have seemingly found greater success in pushing their brands and IP over their park properties, and this change over allows them to continue that. It's easier to sell a ride based on the Incredibles (a known property with beloved and recognizable characters) than it is to push a rollercoaster that harkens back to a romantic vision of seaside piers. That's just the sad reality of it.
                        This is about where I am. It very much saddens me is that I am actually just less interested in visiting now knowing that they could have fleshed out the Paradise Pier theme more.

                        Originally posted by MrLiver View Post

                        I think surmises a different issue showing why so many fans are disappointed in these changes. On some level, we understand that parks NEED a mix of attractions of different types and sizes. As I said above, the pier actually had a pretty decent history of pulling in people and keeping them entertained, even way back at the opening of DCA. The pier was, up until last year, one of the areas least touched by the expansion effort. The derided carnival rides still poking along and pulling in people a decade and a half after they were built.

                        But at some surface level, the fans always want the more advanced cutting edge, e ticket thrill ride attraction. They want their dessert for dinner. Sure they may realize deep down that the long term survival and health of a park requires these basic flat rides and roller coasters, but they keep craving for that dessert. Folks had grand visions of Mystic Manor or some other non-IP, trackless dark ride being placed behind the Pier, tying it altogether. They wanted to have the next big thing, and the Pixar remodel dashed a lot of those hopes.

                        But when you look at the core of the issue: there was a carousel there before, and there is a carousel there now. Maybe the IP changed over to be a little bit more relevant to the newer generations, but it will still be there plugging along for years to come.
                        I can't speak for others, but as a fan myself I really just wanted a different type of product. I had specific ideas (like lowering the platform Silly Symphony Swings is on to be closer to the water), but I think I just envisioned different types of C/D ticket rides filling out the pier.

                        I think back to the rickety old dark rides of seaside amusement parks and wonder why Disney couldn't have added a dark ride or two like what they have in Fantasyland. I know a reskin of their spinner ride is cheaper, and I'm not even asking for a trackless ride a la Mystic Manor or Ratatouille. As evidenced by Roger Rabbit's Cartoon Spin and Mike and Sully to the Rescue, good ol' set design and blacklight with some special effects can be almost as ageless as Peter Pan's Flight.

                        But that's just me. When I complained about the carousel, it was very much a specific complaint about the IP. If I'm at a seaside amusement park, I would love to ride an ornately carved classic carousel like you might find on the East River in Brooklyn or Seaport Village in San Diego. I just happen to disagree with whatever judgment Disney is making that changing the characters from Little Mermaid to Toy Story 2 when only a ten year difference separates their theatrical releases is what is necessary to keep the ride relevant. I think the sculpting is excellently done and I'm sure it rides just as well as the next horse. However, I think people (including YouTubers and Instagram influencers) will converge on a new Disney ride just because it's Disney. As long as they put their own spin on it by adding easter eggs and not necessarily IP (Walt's changing of the King Arthur's Carousel horses to only be comprised of jumpers comes to mind), I think people will show up in droves and love it just the same. I very well could be wrong, and perhaps when I have children one day they will only love the ride because it's Jessie's critters and not just a great carousel. But I guess I just long for what that pier could have been, especially considering how far away we've moved from it.

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                        • #92
                          It quite cute I like it a lot.

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                          • #93
                            We love it. Cute...and fun.
                            When it comes time to die, make sure that all you have to do is die.
                            -----
                            MiceChat member since 1/16/05 (goin for the least posts/day record!!!)

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                            • #94
                              Eh, I'm not especially one for carousels myself, but I thought it was cute walking by it.

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