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  • #21
    Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post

    There's little issue for those who are unaware of the colonial history of Polynesia, and/or who aren't of Polynesian ancestry.

    If you are either of those, however, Tiki culture can vary from off-puttingly patronizing to outrageously racist. Many of the images are religious icons that are for Polynesian cultures as old and as sacred as Christian icons are for Christians.

    For anyone who wants a look into some of the issues with Tiki, a good starting point is this article:

    Tiki bars are built on cultural appropriation and colonial nostalgia. Where’s the reckoning?

    Some excerpts:

    "...[Tiki] has been tethered to a crude imperialist fantasy that has treated the South Pacific as a source of escape.

    'I do not appreciate colonial nostalgia,' says Stephanie Nohelani Teves, assistant professor in women’s studies at the University of Hawaii at Mānoa and author of 'Defiant Indigeneity: The Politics of Hawaiian Performance.' She’s a Kanaka Maoli (a Hawaii native), born and raised on Oahu though her family roots extend to Maui. 'Tiki bars are not cute.'

    And that’s the problem with tiki: how to honor its real contributions to mixology while resisting the parts that dishonor indigenous people, misuse their iconography and exploit their sacred traditions. In a woke world, is there hope for tiki?

    Polynesian colonialism

    America’s presence in Polynesia is the result of military expansion: We seized Hawaii in the 1890s for its geo-strategic value (same with Samoa, carved up by Western colonial powers in 1899), and we exerted control over various islands during and after World War II....

    The word “tiki” traces to New Zealand and the Marquesas Islands. It refers to sacred images of gods and creation....

    By the late 1960s, during its decline, a politically more progressive generation of Americans saw tiki as retrograde or worse.

    “What once seemed charming and naive about island peoples and cultures,” [Martin] Cate writes in "Smuggler’s Cove: Exotic Cocktails, Rum, and the Cult of Tiki," 'now seemed, to a generation raised in a more globally aware world, to be at best patronizing or inauthentic, and at worst simply racist.'"



    For those who want to get a deeper sense of the Hawaiian point of view on the appropriation of their lands and culture by white colonialism, I can recommend:

    Chan, Gaye, Waikiki: A History of Forgetting & Remembering

    Daws, Gavin, The Shoals of Time: A History of the Hawaiian Islands

    Silva, Noenoe, Aloha Betrayed: Native Hawaiian Resistance to American Colonialism*

    Trask, Haunani-Kay, Light in the Crevice Never Seen


    *If you only read one of these books, it should be the Silva.
    While I do appreciate and agree with a great number of the viewpoints expressed here, I do think that there needs to be some room left for an assimilation of varying icons and iconography into pop culture in a variety of ways. There is certainly a boundary somewhere, one that is likely flexible and different depending on who you talk to. However, the selection and internalizing of various elements from around the world by many cultures is something that has frequently happened throughout history to a variety of degrees.This is not a solely "colonial" phenomena either, it is a cultural human one. China, Russia, Britain, Italy, Ancient Egyptians, Romans, Indigenous North Americans and more have adopted words, elements, and icons in either a cultural or commercial sense from others. It is often blended with elements of that particular culture in some way to create something new.

    Christmas is effectively an example of this, a blend of various religious beliefs combined with some pretty strong icons in a commercially and culturally different entity. One could list of a myriad of different food items, fashion elements, and more that we have today that were borne of this adoption and adaptation. Again, there needs to be a blend and an understanding, even the word "Tiki" though has been, like many many other words in the English lexicon transformed into a critically different meaning, much like Christmas has.....a word that in of itself contains the same reference to a religious figure. Would it be appropriate to utilize specific and identical images of polynesian gods, no? Hawaiian shirts, tropical drinks, and birds though? probably a different answer. We again slide into the slippery slope.....if the Tiki room is an issue...is Dole Whip an issue since Dole pineapple plantations are problematic...is all of adventureland an issue because the whole motif of the wilds glorifies colonial romanticism.....then we move on to frontierland.....

    Comment


    • #22

      I envisioned a Tiki Room revamp that just re-records Jose's lines and is a bit more culturally sensitive. But otherwise, I would love to see technology where the birds in the Tiki Room can actually fly. Disney could totally adapt technology like this, this, or this. I know it's not likely, but I'll get my hopes up anyway.
      I hadn't mentioned it in my original post, but you pointed it out so I'll do some springboarding. Yeah... Along with probably slipping in some new dialog in the queue or for a few of the characters just doing some BASIC explanations of real history of meaning behind some of the tiki imagery (honestly, it would be as simple as adding another tiki in the queue that explains itself and what's "happening" in the show), we're going to have to rerecord Jose at some point. None of the birds are PERFECT representations of the cultures they're supposed to be coming from but, Jose is rough. I'm only mixed Mexican, so I can't speak for others like an expert. But yeah, the way Jose talks and acts like a goof is kind... Weird? Like, it's the kind of stuff older people in my family would shake their heads at, cause it's not "bad", but it makes Mexicans look like clowns? They wouldn't have to like, suddenly make Jose super serious or refined, but, maybe redo some of his lines with a modern voice actor who isn't trying to seem like Jose is someone who just fell off the banana truck. We just got such a wide and diverse range of Mexican and otherwise Spanish speaking voice actors in the movie Coco, so we knew Disney has the talent there to find a person who can keep Jose's spirit intact without making him sound like "white guy REALLY trying to sound like Mexican confusing the CH- and TH- sounds."

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by WaltDisney'sAlec View Post

        Exactly.



        A good example of this is with the video that they play in the lanai before the pre-show begins. They updated it a few years back and it was incredibly dated. If I'm not mistaken, the new video is much more tasteful and more accurately depicts Polynesian culture and history. If Disney maintained this same spirit (similar to how they did when building Aulani), then consulting cultural liaisons on how to tastefully include the material would be an excellent way to do it.



        I'm really hoping Jungle Cruise doesn't get the Rock... I would love for the balanced approach you're advocating. Disney is always one for surprising me, though, and frankly hasn't really met my expectations for a lot of rides.

        I envisioned a Tiki Room revamp that just re-records Jose's lines and is a bit more culturally sensitive. But otherwise, I would love to see technology where the birds in the Tiki Room can actually fly. Disney could totally adapt technology like this, this, or this. I know it's not likely, but I'll get my hopes up anyway.
        All good points! I doubt Tiki Room will get thrown out seeing as they JUST added Tropical Hideaway. I’d hate to see it go, it’s my favorite attraction (if you couldn’t tell) but if Disney keeps moving in this direction, I’d take a few changes on these two rides than a complete demo day. Usually I’d cringe a little at Disney adding film celebrities to an attraction- but at least it would be The Rock. Gotta love him!

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by WaltDisney'sAlec View Post
          ...A good example of this is with the video that they play in the lanai before the pre-show begins. They updated it a few years back and it was incredibly dated. If I'm not mistaken, the new video is much more tasteful and more accurately depicts Polynesian culture and history. If Disney maintained this same spirit (similar to how they did when building Aulani), then consulting cultural liaisons on how to tastefully include the material would be an excellent way to do it.
          Yep. And there are some killer stand-up Hawaiian comedians who could add comedy to the show script.

          "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
          it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
          together with every variety of recreation and fun,
          designed to appeal to everyone."

          - Walt Disney

          "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
          - Michael Eisner

          "It's very symbiotic."
          - Bob Chapek

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by YellowTugStrap View Post

            All good points! I doubt Tiki Room will get thrown out seeing as they JUST added Tropical Hideaway. I’d hate to see it go, it’s my favorite attraction (if you couldn’t tell) but if Disney keeps moving in this direction, I’d take a few changes on these two rides than a complete demo day. Usually I’d cringe a little at Disney adding film celebrities to an attraction- but at least it would be The Rock. Gotta love him!
            Depending on what we see in the JC movie, we could have just a small Rock cameo replace or recontextualize one of the few problematic scenes in the current ride. Which, others have pointed out, is literally like, just 2, maybe 3 scenes? Change trader Sam into just, an actual trader, maybe based off a new version of the charcater we see in the movie. Literally just make the village scene culturally accurate, not that hard. And MAYBE the rhino scene? I've heard people complain that it's the white dude in the top, which... I guess. But my head logic has always been, not so much it's racist, and more, while is the white dude who is probably a map maker or a gamehunter or something the one who managed to make it to the top of the pole but the actual guides who have experience end up on the bottom? That's like, a weird detail, which maybe is the joke? The dude is so freaked out, doesn't matter if he's a greenhorn, he flew up the pole first.

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by WaltDisney'sAlec View Post

              Exactly.



              A good example of this is with the video that they play in the lanai before the pre-show begins. They updated it a few years back and it was incredibly dated. If I'm not mistaken, the new video is much more tasteful and more accurately depicts Polynesian culture and history. If Disney maintained this same spirit (similar to how they did when building Aulani), then consulting cultural liaisons on how to tastefully include the material would be an excellent way to do it.
              I'm not holding my breath. Like I said, you're either way left, way right or wrong....and Disney adding a few subtle changes to build on the changes they already made would likely not be enough for mob. I think there needs to be some empathy on both sides, and right now there clearly isn't. I look online to platforms like....ugh twitter....and I see people who are genuinely sad or questioning why some changes to splash as it stands could not have been done called out as racists or nazis by lots of people. If you are genuinely going to bridge divides in North America there needs to be some give and take. People on one side need to understand that nostalgia can't be a complete barrier to prevent change when it comes to genuinely traumatic pasts events and cultural items....however, if any holistic change will occur people demanding these changes also need to be empathetic to the fact that for many, especially older people, and families these cultural objects are tied to childhoods, family history, and incredible passions. Many of these objects have evolved beyond any and all original meaning into something different. Cultures are effectively amalgamations of people's traditions, icons, symbols, and beliefs...every nation does it every culture does it, there needs to be a balance in terms of what is offensive or not but it will never stop happening anywhere in the world. Physically and Spiritually ripping out every ride and attraction that appears in the slightest to be offensive to a group of people won't "heal America" it will just rip open new wounds while simultaneously not allowing the old ones to heal.

              Heck, I was called a racist by someone because I said I didn't like Miles Morales as much as Peter Parker's Spiderman.....I called them an idiot, it has nothing to do with who Miles Morales is, I just grew up with Peter Parker, he's attached to my childhood, he's who I spent hours watching in cartoons as a kid and playing in video games with. Miles Morales is fine, but Peter Parker is tied to my past. Crap calling out like that has to stop.

              Side note, it will be interesting to see how far Disney does go in a pure dollars and cents aspect. Classic attractions like Splash and especially REAL classics like the Tiki Room bring in BIG merchandise dollars. A Moana ride likely gives a tiny bump to overall Moana merchandise sales, but if a kid wants Maui's hook they'll likely want it ride or not. Look how fast the Tiki Room Anniversary merchandise sells out, or the Minnie Tiki line recently too. If you take out a ride and say it's problematic you sure can't bring back that merchandise celebrating it ever again.....which means you likely lose that $$ from those rabid specific fans for good, as "new" Classic attractions take a Loooooooooong time to develop that level of nostalgia.
              Last edited by linkeq2001; 06-25-2020, 11:00 PM.

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by SkunkID View Post

                Depending on what we see in the JC movie, we could have just a small Rock cameo replace or recontextualize one of the few problematic scenes in the current ride. Which, others have pointed out, is literally like, just 2, maybe 3 scenes? Change trader Sam into just, an actual trader, maybe based off a new version of the charcater we see in the movie. Literally just make the village scene culturally accurate, not that hard. And MAYBE the rhino scene? I've heard people complain that it's the white dude in the top, which... I guess. But my head logic has always been, not so much it's racist, and more, while is the white dude who is probably a map maker or a gamehunter or something the one who managed to make it to the top of the pole but the actual guides who have experience end up on the bottom? That's like, a weird detail, which maybe is the joke? The dude is so freaked out, doesn't matter if he's a greenhorn, he flew up the pole first.
                The chance to see Dwayne The Rock Johnson not once... not twice... but possible three times in one ride? Might not be too bad of an idea after all! lol!

                Comment


                • #28
                  Originally posted by SkunkID View Post

                  I hadn't mentioned it in my original post, but you pointed it out so I'll do some springboarding. Yeah... Along with probably slipping in some new dialog in the queue or for a few of the characters just doing some BASIC explanations of real history of meaning behind some of the tiki imagery (honestly, it would be as simple as adding another tiki in the queue that explains itself and what's "happening" in the show), we're going to have to rerecord Jose at some point. None of the birds are PERFECT representations of the cultures they're supposed to be coming from but, Jose is rough. I'm only mixed Mexican, so I can't speak for others like an expert. But yeah, the way Jose talks and acts like a goof is kind... Weird? Like, it's the kind of stuff older people in my family would shake their heads at, cause it's not "bad", but it makes Mexicans look like clowns? They wouldn't have to like, suddenly make Jose super serious or refined, but, maybe redo some of his lines with a modern voice actor who isn't trying to seem like Jose is someone who just fell off the banana truck. We just got such a wide and diverse range of Mexican and otherwise Spanish speaking voice actors in the movie Coco, so we knew Disney has the talent there to find a person who can keep Jose's spirit intact without making him sound like "white guy REALLY trying to sound like Mexican confusing the CH- and TH- sounds."
                  Heyyyy! Me too Growing up, I thought Jose had kind of a Ricky Ricardo quality that almost fits with that time period of the kitschy Tiki bar/nightclub. So I didn't exactly question it but it definitely didn't translate to being representative of me or anyone in my family or anyone I knew. Like who talks like that? No one. I don't feel I'm offended, but I'm all for Disney going a little more modern, even with the retro stuff, so I'd like to see a good redo of his voice. Keep it light but authentic.

                  Jungle Cruise -yeah, it's just a few scenes. I do always wonder why the white guy is on top, and you're right, maybe that's the joke, but I think it's time to move on and change that scene up along with the headhunters and trader.

                  Keep going forward. That's what I think.
                  "I wish they all could be California Bears!"

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Sun Bonnet View Post

                    Jungle Cruise -yeah, it's just a few scenes. I do always wonder why the white guy is on top, and you're right, maybe that's the joke, but I think it's time to move on and change that scene up along with the headhunters and trader.

                    Keep going forward. That's what I think.
                    Okay. Now i'm genuinely curious. What's the heck is the joke for the pole? I've Googled, but there is no "obvious" explanation for why it's one white dude ontop and a bunch of black, like game guides, on the bottom. Is it really a racist joke where the punchline is "lul, white guy ontop," or is this a wink and a nod to some other joke that is just lost to time? Like the mummy joke in HM. Does ANYONE know what the official joke is, or if it is literally just, people on a pole, and any suggestions of racism could be neutralized by like, putting the white guy in the middle or something?

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Fenix View Post

                      What's the issue with The Tiki Room?
                      Don't worry. I'm sure someone will make one up soon enough.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        The JOKE of the hunter on top can be found in those old movies. The "great white hunter" was the first coward up the pole when his shot missed the rhino.
                        Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Originally posted by tarheelalum View Post

                          Don't worry. I'm sure someone will make one up soon enough.
                          Oooo...oooo [hand raised] The parody of the English language spoken by other cultures I'm sure is offending.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            Originally posted by MRaymond View Post
                            The JOKE of the hunter on top can be found in those old movies. The "great white hunter" was the first coward up the pole when his shot missed the rhino.
                            Huh, the joke might be alittle outdated then. If for the bare minimum reason that, if it's a nod to the movies/docu films, the joke is kind of lost.

                            But now watch. Now that I've said that the scene is outdated, the writers for the new movie will suddenly be inspired to include that joke just to make the scene make more sense. Which... Could work? Just dress the figure up alittle to look like the character that happens to in the movie. A wink, a nod, everyone moves on and gets to the see the backside of water.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              I wasn’t aware of this, but apparently a reskin of the jungle cruise ride was part of Johnson’s deal in signing up for the movie ?

                              Which would seem to point to more than just an AA cameo by him. You’re probably looking at a narrative thru line like they attempted with sparrow in Pirates, but much stronger.

                              I’m still doubtful they’ll do this if the movie tanks. I can only hope it does, and money is invested in things that are actually broke, like most of Tomorrowland or much of DCA.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                How about native birds from Polynesia? the parrots (guacamayas) they used are actually native from Latin America and there's also they included Australian Cockatoos
                                sigpic

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  Originally posted by J. Thaddeus Toad View Post
                                  I wasn’t aware of this, but apparently a reskin of the jungle cruise ride was part of Johnson’s deal in signing up for the movie ?

                                  Which would seem to point to more than just an AA cameo by him. You’re probably looking at a narrative thru line like they attempted with sparrow in Pirates, but much stronger.

                                  I’m still doubtful they’ll do this if the movie tanks. I can only hope it does, and money is invested in things that are actually broke, like most of Tomorrowland or much of DCA.
                                  If the Trailer is indicative to the movie, you could most likely be right. After watching the Trailer I pretty much made up my mind that this is going to be a "rental" and not a full movie-price event for me. They lost me with the "Avatar Tree", the Steampunk technology, and the re-skinned "Davy Jones" from PotC: DMC.
                                  “Not the least hard thing to bear when they go from us, these quiet friends, is that they carry away with them so many years of our own lives.”

                                  DL Trips: '58, '59, '61, '65, '66, '67, '68x2, '69x2, '70x2, '71x2, '73x2, '74x2, '75x2, '76x2, '77, '78,x2, '79x2, '80x2, '81, '82, '83, '88, '89x3, '90x2, '91, '93, '94, '95x2, '96, '97, '98x4, '99, '00, '01, '02, '03, '04, '05, '06, '07x2, '08, '09x2, '10, '11, '13
                                  WDW Trips: '81
                                  EPCOT Trips: '93
                                  Tokyo DL Trips: '86

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                                  • #37
                                    Yeah, it looks really, really bad.

                                    The first pirates, although not my cup of tea, actually took some risks in being helmed by a visionary director, and starred a highly eccentric actor who gave a performance unusual for that genre. Because of those two things, the first movie felt very fresh to audiences and caught on like wildfire.

                                    This, however, looks safe, boring and stale, a wannabe pirates. Wasn't Johnson just in TWO Jumanji movies?

                                    I don’t like how the pirate movies brought supernatural elements to the ride, and, unfortunately, it looks like the JC retheme would also do so.

                                    Here’s a novel idea: why not make a jungle cruise movie about ... wait for it.... animals ?

                                    It could Star the Rock and Emily blunt but actually be about... animals ! In the jungle !

                                    too boring for today’s youth ?
                                    Last edited by J. Thaddeus Toad; 07-01-2020, 07:39 PM.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by J. Thaddeus Toad View Post
                                      I wasn’t aware of this, but apparently a reskin of the jungle cruise ride was part of Johnson’s deal in signing up for the movie ?

                                      Which would seem to point to more than just an AA cameo by him. You’re probably looking at a narrative thru line like they attempted with sparrow in Pirates, but much stronger.

                                      I’m still doubtful they’ll do this if the movie tanks. I can only hope it does, and money is invested in things that are actually broke, like most of Tomorrowland or much of DCA.
                                      Spot on. In general, a star with Johnson's drawing power and box office track record will negotiate compensation guarantees for the different media in which Disney may elect to use his likeness, voice, or sound-alike performance. Disney wouldn't, however, sign a contract with any movie star, no matter how big, in which the star's desire to appear in a theme park attraction is guaranteed as a condition of his signing for an as-yet-unshot movie; the risk would be too great of it not generating enough business to warrant theme park inclusion.

                                      It's a safe bet that the amount of JC Movie reference that shows up in the attraction will depend to the success of the movie. If it tanks, then nothing. If it does moderate business, they could use it to replace the African natives. But it would have to be a big hit, with sequels in pre-production and franchise marketing plans in works, for the 2Bobs to be confident enough to commit to the expense of a full-narrative reskin like Sparrow in POTC. Especially when they're going to be ultra-conservative with their cash (and rightfully so) during what's shaping up to be a prolonged economic recovery.
                                      "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
                                      it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
                                      together with every variety of recreation and fun,
                                      designed to appeal to everyone."

                                      - Walt Disney

                                      "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
                                      - Michael Eisner

                                      "It's very symbiotic."
                                      - Bob Chapek

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by J. Thaddeus Toad View Post

                                        Here’s a novel idea: why not make a jungle cruise movie about ... wait for it.... animals ?

                                        It could Star the Rock and Emily blunt but actually be about... animals ! In the jungle !

                                        too boring for today’s youth ?
                                        I don't know if it's sad or ironic, but this was more or less what I was kind of hoping for WAY back before trailers popped up.

                                        Jungle Cruise is "corny" but in an endearing way. So I was hoping for a corny movie, like maybe as much as the crocodile hunter movie was. Literally just, a weird nature documentary where animals just keep acting silly and strange.

                                        Alas. Tis not to be if seems.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          I gotta say, when the announcement first broke that they were making a Jungle Cruise movie, my reaction was "Cool! I hope it's good enough to be unironically enjoyable, but not so good that it makes a kajillion dollars and they decide to revamp the ride to follow its plot." Jungle is one of the most emphatically first-person experiences in Disney theme parks; the only "plot" is the one where you--yes you!--are on a river safari with a guide who washed out of Amateur Stand-Up Night at the Tropical Hideaway. That sort of experience is becoming rarer as everything becomes about the latest hot characters, but it's at the heart and soul of why theme parks work as an entertainment form.
                                          Like this post? Read more like it at The Disneyland Dilettante!

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