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  • "The FastPass Question"

    Since the parks are considering all sorts of potential operational changes, I think it's time to return to fundamental issues about FastPass, and whether it should be redesignd or removed:

    Here are what I believe to be the main reasons for and against FastPass. Note that I’m referring to FastPass in general, not FastPass+, MaxPass, or any other specific iteration of the concept (unless otherwise stated).


    Pros for Guests:
    • If you know how to use it efficiently, FastPass can allow you to experience favorite attractions during crowded times without long waits

    Pros for Disney:
    • People will supposedly buy more things while waiting for FastPass return times (I don’t know the data on this, but I understand that it was at least one of the goals)

    Cons for Guests:
    • Fewer people are waiting in standby queues, and thus more people are in walkways, supposedly making the parks feel significantly more crowded
    • It encourages guests to go from one part of a park to another part in order to enter FastPass queues at their return times, rather than allowing the park's experiences to unfold organically as they move through it, as the parks were originally designed for (e.g., visiting Adventureland and really spending time immersing oneself in it, doing the different attractions, etc., before moving to New Orleans Square...)
    • Some level of immersion-reduction as a result of FastPass kiosks, signs, etc.
    • Standby queues that move more slowly than what Imagineers designed for (in the case of pre-FastPass attractions that were converted) or simply more slowly through the queues’ show scenes than they otherwise would (in the case of FastPass-era attractions), making the queue experiences less engaging and more “just waiting to move forward”
    • Does FastPass increase wait times for E-ticket attractions?
      • Theoretical argument for “no”: People are only willing to wait a certain time for a given E-ticket attraction, so when the posted standby wait time exceeds that (regardless of whether the attraction has a FastPass queue), people stop entering the standby queue; thus the slowing-down of the standby queue does not increase the wait time
      • Theoretical argument for “yes”: People may have a maximum time that they’re willing to wait for a given attraction, but if the standby line moves more slowly, it will reach that “maximum acceptable wait time” sooner and more regularly
      • Empirical evidence for “yes”:
        • When FastPass was added to Matterhorn Bobsleds, wait times on the average day increased substantially
        • When FastPass was added to Pirates of the Caribbean, wait times apparently increased so much that they removed FastPass from the attraction
        • When an attraction at returns a day early from refurbishment (e.g., Space Mountain), it does not offer FastPass, and wait times are substantially lower than on a similar crowd-level day when it offers FastPass

    Cons for Disney:
    • Guest satisfaction problems due to the issues listed in “Cons for Guests”

    I’m sure this is incomplete and imperfect, but I hope it overviews the main pros and cons adequately.

    After pondering the issue a good bit, I am leaning against believing that FastPass is a net positive for the guest experience. The main reasons I’m thinking this are (a) FastPass supposedly increasing the crowding of walkways, (b) FastPass reducing the immersion that comes from exploring the park more organically, (c) FastPass slowing the queue speeds and thus making the queue experiences less engaging (an issue that I think gets way too little consideration), and (d) perhaps FastPass increasing standby wait times, if that turns out to be the case.

    I look forward to hearing peoples’ thoughts and opinions.

  • #2
    When I'm at the parks, I don't want to be rushed anywhere, so I've only used FP a few times. I'd rather stand in an interesting queue and have a conversation with the people I came with, maybe talk to someone unexpected, or see something surprising, than rush through the park from one attraction to the next. To my mind, the attractions are going to be there later, and will be just the same ten minutes/ten days/maybe even ten years later. But there's action in the 'streets,' and it's changing all the time. Lots of fun stuff happens if you just slow down. I do enjoy the attractions, though!

    Comment


    • #3
      Do you have the actual data for the things you have labeled "empirical evidence?" Because as such, claiming what's written as "empirical evidence" is a bit of a stretch.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by JLee1226 View Post
        Do you have the actual data for the things you have labeled "empirical evidence?" Because as such, claiming what's written as "empirical evidence" is a bit of a stretch.
        I look at the Disneyland app every day to see what wait times are like. It's a fun way to think about the parks when I can't visit. My own experience doing this confirms that Matterhorn's standby wait time increased by probably 20 minutes or so after fastpass was implemented.

        I admit that this isn't rock solid evidence that the company releases, so take it with a grain of salt, but I'm not making this up to suit a narrative.

        Comment


        • #5
          I was never a fan of fastpass when it first came out. Some standby lines became absolutely miserable because of it. Space Mountain and Indy especially. We have some beautiful queues on many attractions, but FP messes with their natural flow patterns in ways that negatively impact them for sure. I don’t mind long lines that move, like POTC does. FP attraction standby lines are painfully slow as a result.

          Indy’s queue was designed to be interesting and fun to walk through. Where they pause the line to inject FP guests forces standby to instead crawl through the outdoor switchbacks, then you rush past all the interesting queue parts once you get past the merger. It defeats the purpose of the queue all together.

          Like Mr.Goat, I prefer staying in one land for a while. having a fastpass time on the other side of the park does interfere with the immersion aspect and the ability to enjoy the park at one’s own pace.

          Since they started offering it, I did get accustomed to using maxpass. If there were no other choices, I would prefer staying with MaxPass over FP+ in a heartbeat.

          If DL went back to standby only on all attractions (unlikely as that may be), I would celebrate that for sure.
          Mike_M

          Disneyland Trips
          Walt Disney World
          Disneyland Paris

          1980, 1982, 1984, 1986, 1987, 1989
          1990, 1992, 1993

          2000, 2001, 2006, 2007, 2009
          2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2016, 2017, 2/2019, 11/2019
          2020

          Comment


          • #6
            A couple of quick thoughts.

            1) Not all of the pros and cons should be weighted equally. For many guests, shortening long lines vastly outweighs all of the cons that come along with it. I consider some of those cons to be minor, so I'll put up with them if it makes my day more efficient overall.

            2) The fact that FP increases walk way traffic is true, but it's also true that the people who were in line are also in line for some other ride, eating food, shopping, or doing the many other things that they would do during their day. FP increases efficiency not just because the lines are shorter, but you get to do two things at once. If all of the changes to the Annual Passholder program take effect it will probably reduce crowding, so that would decrease the need to eliminate FP to reduce walkway traffic. FastPass is a perk, so I'm not sure I'd eliminate it at the same time you eliminate the AP program.

            3) FP may increase standby wait times, but average wait time does not increase. Each ride has a max capacity, so it really just shifts which lines are longer. Everyone has access to fastpass, so I don't consider this to be much of a problem. If people don't want to wait in the standby line then they can get a fastpass. You don't need to buy MaxPass to have an efficient fastpass day. Standby lines with FastPass may be longer, but they still fall largely in my tolerable zone. I generally think that 60 minutes is my max that I want to stand in line. Generally only Space Mountain hits this threshold regularly.

            4) Disneyland being the oldest park, most attractions weren't designed to have engaging queue experiences anyway. Most of them I'm perfectly happy to skip. Indiana Jones and Star Tours are likely the only exceptions. Anyone else remember interminably in the bowels of Space Mountain watching videos of Ray Cathode over and over again?

            5) If people want to experience the park organically land-by-land then they don't have to get a fastpass. It's optional, so you don't have to eliminate it for all guests.

            Comment


            • #7
              It is an interesting debate back and forth. I can see the pros and cons for both. In the era of paper tickets even as tourists we knew how to use the system pretty effectively and on anything but the busiest days we were able to ride and experience far more than the reported "magic number" that Disney has for guest satisfaction with I think was 8 rides. That being said, as more and more experiences have gained Fastpass and Maxpass was added in the ability to avoid really long lines has started to diminish.

              It seems to be a really interesting balancing act, with some rides embracing the amazing queue to keep guests happy, see Harry Potter where you explore the castle and see the characters in a lead up to the attraction. In contrast to that we get new rides with little more than switchbacks as they want the majority of the riders to be ferried through on FP. In terms of end game at Disney, I think it is inevitable that they move to a Maxpass or nothing upgrade where you pay to have a fastpass much like Universal. Certain rides will be exempt or may require a further upgrade. More dollars in their pocket and keeping a subset of guests willing to spend $$$ in the walkways and stores means more shopping time.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Co Foo View Post
                ...5) If people want to experience the park organically land-by-land then they don't have to get a fastpass. It's optional, so you don't have to eliminate it for all guests.
                While this is technically true, guests who don’t take advantage of fastpass pay a penalty by experiencing slower standby lines then they would otherwise for every attraction that has FP.

                Fastpass itself is not the problem, it’s the fact that it slows down standby lines when implemented. If there was zero impact to the standby line wait times, then it wouldn’t really matter at all to me whether fastpass exists or not.

                Ultimately it’s that design flaw in the implementation that I have the biggest issue with.
                Mike_M

                Disneyland Trips
                Walt Disney World
                Disneyland Paris

                1980, 1982, 1984, 1986, 1987, 1989
                1990, 1992, 1993

                2000, 2001, 2006, 2007, 2009
                2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2016, 2017, 2/2019, 11/2019
                2020

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mike_M View Post

                  While this is technically true, guests who don’t take advantage of fastpass pay a penalty by experiencing slower standby lines then they would otherwise for every attraction that has FP.

                  Fastpass itself is not the problem, it’s the fact that it slows down standby lines when implemented. If there was zero impact to the standby line wait times, then it wouldn’t really matter at all to me whether fastpass exists or not.

                  Ultimately it’s that design flaw in the implementation that I have the biggest issue with.
                  My sense is that FastPass was concocted because enough people indicated that wait times were a problem. For some people (like myself) waiting in lines is the worst part of the trip. FP gives options to people to get out of something that really negatively impacts their day.

                  It's true that the people who choose not to get fastpasses will have their wait times increased. But if wait times were such a problem for those people, then they'd get fastpasses. If people don't mind waiting in lines and enjoying immersive queues, then the cost they face of increased wait times is somewhat mitigated.

                  There are tradeoffs, for sure, but in the end I think the winners win more than the losers lose.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Co Foo View Post
                    It's true that the people who choose not to get fastpasses will have their wait times increased. But if wait times were such a problem for those people, then they'd get fastpasses. If people don't mind waiting in lines and enjoying immersive queues, then the cost they face of increased wait times is somewhat mitigated.

                    There are tradeoffs, for sure, but in the end I think the winners win more than the losers lose.
                    Wait times weren’t a problem though for many of us before fastpass. A long line that moves quickly (POTC) is much more pleasurable than a long line that moves very slowly (Space Mountain). Fastpass itself created that situation where we either have to use it, or experience slower lines that weren’t slow before.

                    I get that there are people like yourself that would prefer to get on the ride quickly, with as short a line as possible. If there was instead a system, where people like you who wanted a ‘skip straight to the ride experience’ could do so without impacting the experience for everyone else, I’d be all for it. But that’s not the case.

                    it’s that unequal trade-off that I have the problem with. The options are an unpleasant slow standby line that wasn’t so painful before FP, or an abbreviated fastpass queue that is missing or rushing past all of the theming and entertainment present in the standby queue.

                    Think of it like this.

                    I see many of the elaborate queues as part of the attraction, and the FP line skips them in many cases making it a reduced experience overall. This is especially true for Indy (rushed past), BTMRR (half skipped) & Roger Rabbit (completely skipped).

                    Is the stretching room in haunted mansion part of the queue or part of the ride? If we use fastpass logic, then its part of the queue and FP should be taking you straight to the doom buggies and skipping the elevator all together. That’s a subpar experience in my opinion and the major flaw in FP on most attractions.

                    Simply put, it’s a lose-lose scenario. Either option is a reduced experience from how it was designed to work and entertain IMO.
                    Last edited by Mike_M; 01-28-2021, 02:26 PM.
                    Mike_M

                    Disneyland Trips
                    Walt Disney World
                    Disneyland Paris

                    1980, 1982, 1984, 1986, 1987, 1989
                    1990, 1992, 1993

                    2000, 2001, 2006, 2007, 2009
                    2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2016, 2017, 2/2019, 11/2019
                    2020

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Co Foo View Post
                      I look at the Disneyland app every day to see what wait times are like. It's a fun way to think about the parks when I can't visit. My own experience doing this confirms that Matterhorn's standby wait time increased by probably 20 minutes or so after fastpass was implemented....

                      I admit that this isn't rock solid evidence that the company releases, so take it with a grain of salt, but I'm not making this up to suit a narrative.
                      Additional evidence is in the eyewitness testimony of MiceChat CMs who worked at DL when Fastpass was first rolled out. They posted that walkway crowding significantly increased, due to guests being in "virtual queues."


                      Originally posted by Mike_M View Post
                      ...Simply put, it’s a lose-lose scenario. Either option is a reduced experience from how it was designed to work and entertain IMO.
                      Exactly.

                      It has been discussed in numerous threads that the main advantage of the Fastpass system is to Disney: guests who spend less time in queues spend more time roaming the park, where they can be tempted by potential points of sale for food and merch. The old shopping mall wisdom of "the customer can't spend when he's sitting on his wallet" (or standing in a queue) was key to Pressler's mall model for Disneyland.
                      "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
                      it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
                      together with every variety of recreation and fun,
                      designed to appeal to everyone."

                      - Walt Disney

                      "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
                      - Michael Eisner

                      "It's very symbiotic."
                      - Bob Chapek

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post

                        Exactly.

                        It has been discussed in numerous threads that the main advantage of the Fastpass system is to Disney: guests who spend less time in queues spend more time roaming the park, where they can be tempted by potential points of sale for food and merch. The old shopping mall wisdom of "the customer can't spend when he's sitting on his wallet" (or standing in a queue) was key to Pressler's mall model for Disneyland.
                        Now...that you bring up this statement, about "MALL"
                        That why ,it also hard a place sit down in a Shopping Malls also -DANG
                        Another reason ,I do not like malls no more !
                        Soaring like an EAGLE !

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Co Foo View Post

                          I look at the Disneyland app every day to see what wait times are like. It's a fun way to think about the parks when I can't visit. My own experience doing this confirms that Matterhorn's standby wait time increased by probably 20 minutes or so after fastpass was implemented.

                          I admit that this isn't rock solid evidence that the company releases, so take it with a grain of salt, but I'm not making this up to suit a narrative.
                          I mean if every ride is only going up by 20-25 mins then FP is great.

                          You are saving tons of time Indy and Space would always be 40 mins anyway now its 60. FP takes less than ten for mins for sure saving you 20-30 mins. Same with Indy.

                          I like FP but im also someone who had an AP so am very used to all the Q's of the park...and most don't really interest me past ten mins. Splash for example is just long walkways with not much but rockwork to look at.
                          Happy Halloween!!!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by JerrodDRagon View Post

                            I mean if every ride is only going up by 20-25 mins then FP is great.

                            You are saving tons of time Indy and Space would always be 40 mins anyway now its 60. FP takes less than ten for mins for sure saving you 20-30 mins. Same with Indy.

                            I like FP but im also someone who had an AP so am very used to all the Q's of the park...and most don't really interest me past ten mins. Splash for example is just long walkways with not much but rockwork to look at.
                            Why would anyone think making a standby queue 20-25 min longer is a good thing?? A 20-25 min total per attraction wait time is pretty standard around the park for non-FP attractions most days, and something I personally have no problem with on any attraction. Artificially doubling that to 40-50 min total is outrageous and makes what was once a reasonable queue experience into something that is absolutely miserable for everyone stuck in it.
                            It’s a poor guest experience for the majority no matter how you spin it.

                            I admit that not every queue is interesting enough to care about. Space Mtn, Splash Mtn, BLAB, and the Matterhorn have no advantage to the standby queue in terms of theming, and I can’t remember the last time I even attempted to use the standby line for those. But that is because the standby line times are no longer reasonable at all where FP was implemented. An hour for Space Mountain is the low end most days for the standby line because of FP’s impact. Because of that, it has lost its place as something I can experience on a whim. It’s either FP or nothing now and that’s a shame.

                            The problem is that I have no choice in the matter. It’s either buy into the FP method of reserving time on rides and create a schedule to my day, when I would prefer not to have one at all, or suffer through artificially slower lines caused by what is essentially a sanctioned ‘cut in line’ process.

                            Even though I am an idealist when it comes to most aspects of the park, I am a realist in others. I know that FP is not going away, no matter how much I despise it. Maxpass is definitely an improvement over the paper system and at least allows me to not have to rush across the park to get a FP. It’s also the lesser of two evils by a significant amount when compared to FP+ which is the main reason I have not returned to WDW in 20 years (if it wasn’t for Covid, I’d actually consider going to Walt Disney World right now because they have no fast pass at all currently and taking a quick look at the wait times in MK, with only a couple exceptions. The entire park is well within my acceptable queue time range)

                            All that said, once COVID is behind us, I would be ok with returning to the status quo as it was pre-Covid. It’s not perfect, but it’s significantly better than what they had at WDW.
                            Last edited by Mike_M; 01-29-2021, 10:50 AM.
                            Mike_M

                            Disneyland Trips
                            Walt Disney World
                            Disneyland Paris

                            1980, 1982, 1984, 1986, 1987, 1989
                            1990, 1992, 1993

                            2000, 2001, 2006, 2007, 2009
                            2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2016, 2017, 2/2019, 11/2019
                            2020

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JerrodDRagon View Post
                              ...and most don't really interest me past ten mins. Splash for example is just long walkways with not much but rockwork to look at.
                              I swear I don’t mean to single you out all the time. Lol

                              You and I have very different ways we look at the park, and it’s easier for me to use your posts to convey my point in many cases. It’s not that I think your way of enjoying the park is bad, it’s just not my way. I have no problem with anyone experiencing the park the way they want to, so long as it doesn’t interfere with my ability to do the same.

                              That said, A big part of the difference here I think relates to the same difference you and I had over Galaxy’s Edge.
                              it’s looking at the park as a collection of experiences instead of a collection of rides. it’s why WDI refers to them as “attractions“ instead of rides.

                              The fastpass system, as it’s currently designed, forgets that these are meant to be attractions/experiences and not rides to blow through.

                              The longer we stay in a single land, the more immersed we become, the easier the illusion of reality is.

                              To use Adventureland as an example:

                              With queue times included, to experience all of Adventureland sequentially (and assuming no more than a 30 min queue time each for JC and Indy), it would probably take ~2+ hours. That’s every attraction, browsing the shop, and a snack at either the Tropical Hideaway or Bengal BBQ. After 2 hours in Adventureland, you’ve become accustomed to the sights, sounds, smells, tastes, and feel of the land. It’s not hard to feel like you are actually somewhere else other than southern California.

                              Now, let’s take queue time out of the mix.

                              Not 100% sure how accurate these are, but according to a website I found, the total time on all the rides and shows in Adventureland equals 34 minutes.
                              Tiki Room 14.5 min
                              Jungle Cruise 7.5 min
                              Indy 3.25 min
                              Tarzan’s Treehouse 9 min

                              That’s a pretty quick turnaround and for me, it would be difficult to feel fully immersed in such a short time.

                              The queues are not just a way to wait your turn for the ride, they are an opportunity to soak in your surroundings and let your guard down enough to except the fantasy of the experience.

                              -The waiting area for Tiki Room with its preshow gives you a mini tour of Hawaii and its culture, plus a chance to pickup a dole whip to enjoy during it all.
                              -The queue for JC is filled with photos and references of explorers and the cargo that the boats will be transporting on their journey. Plus there is the radio playing in the background that further transports you back to the 1930s.
                              -The queue for Indy is an archeological excavation with hints of what’s to come peppered throughout. Images of Mara (all with eyes closed). Traps that Indy had to survive before making it in. Messages written in another language to decipher. Much of what’s around you can be touched and impacted: moving the support in the spike ceiling room, pulling the rope in the large round chamber, etc. Plus all the Easter eggs related to the Indiana Jones movies that are all over the place.

                              These are the reasons why I believe fastpass hurts the overall experience. Skipping all of that beautiful immersion robs you of the fantasy you are supposed to be experiencing. At that point, it’s truly just a ride.
                              Mike_M

                              Disneyland Trips
                              Walt Disney World
                              Disneyland Paris

                              1980, 1982, 1984, 1986, 1987, 1989
                              1990, 1992, 1993

                              2000, 2001, 2006, 2007, 2009
                              2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2016, 2017, 2/2019, 11/2019
                              2020

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                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Mike_M View Post

                                Wait times weren’t a problem though for many of us before fastpass. A long line that moves quickly (POTC) is much more pleasurable than a long line that moves very slowly (Space Mountain). Fastpass itself created that situation where we either have to use it, or experience slower lines that weren’t slow before.

                                I get that there are people like yourself that would prefer to get on the ride quickly, with as short a line as possible. If there was instead a system, where people like you who wanted a ‘skip straight to the ride experience’ could do so without impacting the experience for everyone else, I’d be all for it. But that’s not the case.

                                it’s that unequal trade-off that I have the problem with. The options are an unpleasant slow standby line that wasn’t so painful before FP, or an abbreviated fastpass queue that is missing or rushing past all of the theming and entertainment present in the standby queue.

                                Think of it like this.

                                I see many of the elaborate queues as part of the attraction, and the FP line skips them in many cases making it a reduced experience overall. This is especially true for Indy (rushed past), BTMRR (half skipped) & Roger Rabbit (completely skipped).

                                Is the stretching room in haunted mansion part of the queue or part of the ride? If we use fastpass logic, then its part of the queue and FP should be taking you straight to the doom buggies and skipping the elevator all together. That’s a subpar experience in my opinion and the major flaw in FP on most attractions.

                                Simply put, it’s a lose-lose scenario. Either option is a reduced experience from how it was designed to work and entertain IMO.
                                First off, we should all admit that there is no perfect scenario that works best for everyone. Fastpass or no fastpass, there are some people who aren't going to be served optimally. I'm very utilitarian in my views that we should be doing whatever system works the best for the most people.

                                I think there are good reasons to believe that plenty of people like fastpass. At Disney World you have to make reservations 60 days in advance. The fact that the standby lines do get impacted indicates how many people are actually using fast pass. There are enough FP users out there that it shifts the balance. I don't have survey data from the early 90s to show how many people liked standing in those lines, but as far as I'm concerned people vote with their feet every day. If people didn't like fastpass then they wouldn't use it. A lot of the talk about how many people were happy before fastpass sounds like an overly rosy view of the past.

                                I was listening to an interview with the imagineer Joe Lanzisero a few days ago and he described Disney fans as being floaters, swimmers, or divers. Floaters experience the parks pretty superficially, whereas divers are very immersed in the details and stories, and the swimmers are somewhere in between. My sense is that the people who are really into the thematic details in the lines and see it as part of the attraction are divers, and do not make up the majority of Disneyland guests. People with really intense preferences almost never make up the majority of the group.

                                I get that for you the current standby lines are too slow, but the fastpass lines are too fast. It seems strange though that you're really into those details and immersion, but an extra 15-20 minutes in the line now makes it a miserable experience that you have to suffer through. This sounds like a pretty specific scenario that needs to be pulled off. It's like a chemistry experiment where you have to have the precise mix of volatile chemicals that will explode if it's out of balance. It's hard for me to imagine that there are that many people that fall into that category outside of MiceChat.

                                Divers who are into the details still have the opportunity to experience them. Maybe on some other day you don't feel like it and you just want to get on the ride. On that day then you can get a fastpass. Ultimately I think that giving people options is the best way to serve them. Allowing people to choose what's best for them is almost always the best strategy.

                                I understand that for some folks, the current status quo stinks. It's also true that 100% standby lines stinks for others. I think eliminating fastpass winds up taking something away that a lot of people use for a smaller group of people that have a pretty specific need to fill. If there is any hard evidence that I'm wrong, I will gladly eat my words.
                                Last edited by Co Foo; 01-29-2021, 01:25 PM.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Co Foo

                                  I agree with you that there is no perfect answer. That’s why I called it a lose-lose scenario. One takes away from the other for sure. I’m not even certain that there is a better answer out there. All I can say, is that before fastpass existed, I had absolutely no problems at all with the queues at Disneyland.

                                  As much as I don’t like how FP at DL has changed my experience, I have come to accept it, and believe that I have figured out how to use DL’s implementation as best as possible to fit the experience I look for (The Diver title fits me well).

                                  It’s not as simple as saying that the stand by lines are longer, therefore worse. Pace has a lot to do with things which is what’s ultimately impacted the most by FP. Take 5 steps, then wait 2 minutes. Then 5 more steps, then wait again. It’s the unevenness of the experience that wears on a person. POTC, which doesn’t have FP, or TBH the most interesting queue, can have a long line at times, but the pace is constant and therefore easier to overlook, even when it’s longer than usual. 45 min in the POTC queue is more pleasant than 45 min waiting for Space Mountain.

                                  Additionally, In some cases what Disney chose to do is create a lesser experience of switchbacks, in a less themed area, for the standby line to spend the majority of its time in.

                                  Space mountain is an obvious example where they made the outside queue a pretty miserable experience due to not only the pace but the lack of immersion quality. You’re standing in a big white line of never ending switchbacks which has a soul crushingly slow pace to it. I honestly don’t understand how anyone stands in that particular standby line at all.

                                  It’s a similar issue with Indy. Rather than have the line back up to the temple entrance, they pace it in a way where you spend a half hour in the outside switchbacks, waiting for a turn to join the main queue, just to be rushed through the most interesting part of the queue. I’d much rather have spent that half hour in the interesting part of the queue.

                                  It’s not the existence of fast pass that I have a problem with, it’s simply how it impacts the standby line experience as it was designed originally to work. The pace before was acceptable, even when long, and allowed for enough constant movement and change in scenery to add to the experience or at least distract you enough to not care so much.

                                  If they could fix the pace issue, that solves the majority of the issue for me. I just don’t think that’s realistically possible.
                                  Last edited by Mike_M; 01-29-2021, 02:10 PM.
                                  Mike_M

                                  Disneyland Trips
                                  Walt Disney World
                                  Disneyland Paris

                                  1980, 1982, 1984, 1986, 1987, 1989
                                  1990, 1992, 1993

                                  2000, 2001, 2006, 2007, 2009
                                  2010, 2011, 2014, 2016, 2016, 2017, 2/2019, 11/2019
                                  2020

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I have use Fast Pass.......
                                    But have to say...I never been a great FAN of it.

                                    IMO
                                    Soaring like an EAGLE !

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Mike_M View Post

                                      Why would anyone think making a standby queue 20-25 min longer is a good thing?? A 20-25 min total per attraction wait time is pretty standard around the park for non-FP attractions most days, and something I personally have no problem with on any attraction. Artificially doubling that to 40-50 min total is outrageous and makes what was once a reasonable queue experience into something that is absolutely miserable for everyone stuck in it.
                                      It’s a poor guest experience for the majority no matter how you spin it.

                                      I admit that not every queue is interesting enough to care about. Space Mtn, Splash Mtn, BLAB, and the Matterhorn have no advantage to the standby queue in terms of theming, and I can’t remember the last time I even attempted to use the standby line for those. But that is because the standby line times are no longer reasonable at all where FP was implemented. An hour for Space Mountain is the low end most days for the standby line because of FP’s impact. Because of that, it has lost its place as something I can experience on a whim. It’s either FP or nothing now and that’s a shame.

                                      The problem is that I have no choice in the matter. It’s either buy into the FP method of reserving time on rides and create a schedule to my day, when I would prefer not to have one at all, or suffer through artificially slower lines caused by what is essentially a sanctioned ‘cut in line’ process.

                                      Even though I am an idealist when it comes to most aspects of the park, I am a realist in others. I know that FP is not going away, no matter how much I despise it. Maxpass is definitely an improvement over the paper system and at least allows me to not have to rush across the park to get a FP. It’s also the lesser of two evils by a significant amount when compared to FP+ which is the main reason I have not returned to WDW in 20 years (if it wasn’t for Covid, I’d actually consider going to Walt Disney World right now because they have no fast pass at all currently and taking a quick look at the wait times in MK, with only a couple exceptions. The entire park is well within my acceptable queue time range)

                                      All that said, once COVID is behind us, I would be ok with returning to the status quo as it was pre-Covid. It’s not perfect, but it’s significantly better than what they had at WDW.
                                      Some rides for sure don't see as much of a benefit but once again once a ride gets to 40-60 misn anyway I'd rather get a FP and come back and wait 10-20 mins. Especially now that i have no plans on getting an AP me going to GOTG and getting a FP then watching Philhare magic and getting lunch is much better use of my waiting time then standing in a Q for 60 mins.

                                      Literally one way gets me to see a show, eat and ride the same ride...while someone just standing there is waiting an hour plus for less. It's what I've done since i was a kid, you get a FP for Big Thunder and then ride HM/Pirates and come back.

                                      FF is 20+ years old...if people don't understand how to best use it yet that is on them..there are video's and guides out there so if you are not using it that on you...also heard from a friend when he went and used Max Pass they basically didn't wait in any line for over 30 mins because they used Max pass on rides that had it and used the other time to go on rides that did not...so sure I'll love Max Pass once I finally used that and can get a FP for a ride I am no where near.

                                      Also Disneyland is everyone's land.....and no one can tell me I'm enjoying it wrong if you wait to pay to wait...you pleaseeeee do that but I pay money to do things and you will walkthrough the Q still. But I don't need to walk the outside of HM to enjoy the ride...i for sure take my time once im inside the building and look at everything even let people pass me to look at the paintings longer but the outside and grass? I'm good
                                      Happy Halloween!!!

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                                      • #20
                                        JerrodDRagon

                                        Funny enough, I almost think you and I are having a similar difference of perception as Stovk and I had in the JC thread, only the roles are reversed. I’m the older one this time I suspect, who has a wider lens of experience in the park.

                                        Before I go further, I will reiterate; as long as someone’s experience doesn’t impede on anyone else’s, there is absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying the park however you want. You be you, and I’ll be me. We’re both right, so long as we continue to have enjoyable experiences in the park.

                                        Even though I believe that FP hurts the overall immersion experience, I’d bet that I’m as good, if not better than most at using it. I understand the efficiency it offers. With Maxpass (which I admit took me a couple trips to comfortably work into my routine), I’ve ridden every single ride at DCA in a single day, with time and FPs available to do a couple big rides multiple times. Not too hard to do actually. I have my strategies for using it at DL as well, although the months that I generally choose to visit have worked out to have lower volumes of guests, which has resulted in many standby lines being very reasonable on average. Honestly, FP is really only really needed for Space Mtn, Matterhorn & Indy. The remaining FP attractions in DL are easily found with acceptable standby times during the right windows of opportunity on most days.

                                        I have done short, rushed trips, and I’ve done long leisurely trips as well. I can honestly say that the longer, more leisurely pace has always ended up being more enjoyable. It’s become my opinion that the park was designed with that leisurely pace in mind and that efficiently measures in the park like FP do take something away from that experience.

                                        I suppose my point in this discussion has always been that there is a benefit to stopping and smelling the roses when in the park. This benefit has become more and more important to me over the years, culminating in the superior immersion offered in Galaxy’s Edge. Being efficient will get you on more rides in less time for sure. It’s just my opinion that being efficient can make one miss the substantial amount of details around them, and result is a less fulfilling overall experience.

                                        Many will not know the difference. Many may even be so conditioned by the FP process that it would be detrimental to their experience now to be without it. I personally don’t think it will go away. It’s here for good. I do hope it doesn’t expand to more classic attractions at DL, but fully expect it to be on all new E Tickets going forward.

                                        I do hope you understand however that when a superior queue experience with historical wait times around 20 min became twice as long or greater because of how FP affected the pacing, it was something those of us conditioned to accept those old times have never felt comfortable with. It was like going from scenic back roads to bumper to bumper freeway traffic. Both get you there, but one way is much more enjoyable. Yes there is a shortcut available, but you’ll miss even more of the details using it.

                                        The realist in me accepts it. The Idealist in me longs for the days with no FP.
                                        Mike_M

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