[Fun] Would you rather: New Gate(s) or Park Expansions

[RapunzelsCabbage]

DisneylandForward is super up in the air and nebulous and nowhere near a guarantee and all that jazz..but let’s say it goes forward with no holds barred. Let’s say they get carte blanche to build whatever they want on the land that they already own.

Would you rather the western lot by the hotels and Downtown Disney become a new independent park, or expansions to the existing parks?

What about the Toy Story Parking Lot? A new gate or a new kind of Downtown Disney?

EDIT: if you want to speculate beyond DisneylandForward I think that’s all in good fun, but the question is specifically about Disneyland’s public (if not extremely detailed) wish to expand entertainment options ONLY ON THE LAND THEY CURRENTLY OWN. If you haven’t seen the proposal, you can read more here: https://disneylandforward.com.

DisneylandForward will take years to come to fruition, if it’s approved at all, but while they focus on working with the city of Anaheim to make the most of what they already have, I personally doubt buying more land is very high on their priority list.

[mickeyfan42]

Give me a bit, but I have a LOT of thoughts on this topic that will take a bit of time to jot down.

[Brian PieGuy]

A new gate would be cool depending on what they did with it, but my concern is that Disney would just built a scaled down clone of another one of their theme parks, but without all the space needed for something grand.

I kind of like the idea of having a supersized Disneyland; the front of the park is the historic "Walt Disney park" and the back is the "new Disneyland" with Galaxy's Edge and whatever their expansion would be.

[mickeyfan42]

ok, here's the extremely long thoughts on this:

1) They need to get the Eastern Gateway approved and built before they can do ANY redevelopment of the existing ground level parking lots (West Side and Toy Story) because adding too much more to the parks while taking away parking will make the parking situations worse.

2) No matter what they want to do, they probably need to get expansion approvals for the West Side parking lots if we still want new attractions without having to replace anything that exists, and right now, without having to permanently cut parades, they have the expansion pad behind the Quinjet that is earmarked for an Avengers E-ticket later, a pad between Galaxy's Edge and Toon Town that will most likely go to Star Wars, some room in Tomorrowland since it needs a MASSIVE overhaul, and the same for Hollywood (including being able to expand north into the current shuttle drop off zone if Eastern Gateway gets approved, and probably room for another solid dark ride on the pier using the band stand area as the entrance and going in behind or in place of the boardwalk games (do we really need the physical games when we have Midway Mania?), as well as potentially some Fantasyland areas like the theater and the old Motor Boat Cruise)

3) If all they make a shopping district in the Toy Story lot (which has been zoned for a park since before Disney purchased the land in the 90s) they'll still going to run out of room eventually using just those West Side parking lots to expand out, and I give that about 15-20 years max before we run into that problem again. Also, they will never be able to get another parcel of 75 acres of connected land that close to the parks to do a 3rd gate.

4) GardenWalk is right across the street from the Toy Story lot and has been struggling ever since it opened over 10 years ago, and they're probably hurting now too because House of Blues hasn't been able to have live shows since the pandemic started, and the theater only just reopened and those are easily the 2 most profitable venues on that property. Disney opening their own shopping district across the street doesn't make sense.

5) If you build a 3rd gate in the Toy Story lot and it doesn't suck like DCA 1.0 did, and you intentionally under build it at first to give it some room for future growth like they did with DCA, you buy yourself more time before space becomes an issue, again, and more opportunity for different areas that won't break theme with either DL or DCA (for instance, a Wakanda area would make NO sense in either of those parks).

So what would I do if I were Disney? I would still seek out the zoning approvals. then, I would aggressively go after the GardenWalk property to use as their East Side shopping district. Then I'd get Eastern Gateway started and break ground on a 3rd gate at the Toy Story property to open before DL's 75th anniversary (we have 9 years), using GW as a way to funnel the guests from EG through shopping to get to the park, much like how DLH, and PPH guests are funneled through DTD to get to the Esplanade. Then, I'd start on the Hollywood and Tomorrowland overhauls since they both desperately need it after the 3rd gate opens). Then, I would cycle the new expansions for the parks between all 3 and placing them based on what makes the most sense for each park. I think if they don't do a 3rd park, we are out of room to grow again by 2035, if we get the 3rd park I think we by ourselves at least an extra 15-20 years before we run into that problem.

[RapunzelsCabbage]

Wow, mickeyfan42, that is a really in depth look at what they should do in terms of long term business plans! I definitely agree that they should leave to grow, whatever they do. I'm not as well versed in their current zoning, or even what the neighboring business dynamics, but I wonder if GardenWalk's problems would necessarily bleed over to a Disney shopping/entertainment district across the street. I'd imagine that actually Disney's area would do fine, since people would come to town specifically for it (especially if there's a new Disney hotel there) and the further damage to GardenWalk from the poached business would then make it easier for Disney to eventually buy it out. It's brutal, and not really as nice to the city of Anaheim as I think Disney is trying to be with DisneylandForward, but it'd be an effective way to plan growth if nothing else.

On the more creative/amateur imagineering side, I would definitely prefer the Toy Story lot to be a hybrid shopping/entertainment/hotel area to replace Downtown Disney rather than become its own gate. It comes down to the difference between Disneyland and Walt Disney World to me; Disneyland and DCA is a walking resort, inside a city but well sheltered like an oasis, while WDW is a sprawling city of loosely connected parks that require buses and shuttles. It might just be across the street and down a block, but I'm just not a fan of leaving the resort entirely for another park, I think it would break the magic bubble. I wouldn't mind it for shopping or a show though.

Now for the land west of the two parks, it's an odd shape but I think it could definitely work as a third gate, especially if they got rid of the Paradise Pier Hotel. Again, kind of a brutal move, but if there's a new hotel (or two) on the Toy Story lot, go for it to make a way better park on land that's still connected to the two parks we have. A new park opens up what they can do for theming lands, and from a business perspective is a bigger draw to get guests to stay extra days than simply adding lands. I do think for a third gate here to make sense PPH needs to go, otherwise the size difference between it and the existing parks will make pricing really funky.

I worry about Tomorrowland, Hollywoodland, and Paradise Garden Park (which I'm honestly more disappointed in than Hollywoodland) no matter what the DisneylandFoward plan ends up being, and can only hope that they left enough money and energy to address them in the next few years. I'd rather see them fixed before a third gate/expanded lands, honestly, because if not the comparison between them and brand new lands will be embarrassing, but they might be planning on using the publicity/money from new stuff to cover such significant closures.

[rld275501]

Oh this is a hard one, although I’d say new gate: I picked Toy Story Lot.

Why?
Once Avengers E-ticket ride completes phase 2 of Avengers Campus.
AND
Once Hollywood, (hopefully) gets its DCA 2.0 style redo with attractions added in the current bus transportation area, you have once again ran into the problem of, “we have no room for expansion.”
Who knows, maybe the Tron Coaster in (hopefully Tomorrowland) could share half of the bus transportation area with DCA if able to?
Also, DESPITE
common assumptions, lands at DCA still are required to have a slight connection to California. This is why I believe the whole time as the main underlying reason they didn’t put Star Wars Land in California Adventure.
THEREFORE,
A 3rd park would lack the required connection to California.

[SuperHappyCM]

I feel the DisneylandForward project is just a political (and wise move) by Disney to get approval for certain projects, but not all the things you see on those vague sketches. Anaheim has treated Disneyland badly but the pandemic clearly showed the city and it's businesses that if you have no Disneyland, you have nothing. Now Disneyland is in the driver's seat.

[Captain Andy]

Doesn't Anaheim have the Convention Center, Anaheim Stadium (which hosts many games and concerts), hockey, and Knott's? And my favorite bagel place (Blue Mountain Bagel Co)?

I lived in Anaheim for a time, and for a big chunk of that time, I didn't visit Disneyland. In fact, when I had to go to bed early for work, Disneyland was a nuisance –– the fireworks were loud, I couldn't sleep, and I'm sure my older neighbors were probably just as annoyed by the noise as I was. Disney magic from afar is not as magical.

I know Disney is a hunk and a moneymaker, but it hurts to see the words: "you have no Disneyland, you have nothing." Anaheim has so much character. I believe it shouldn't be entirely consumed by the mouse's empire, no matter how much money Mickey rakes in.

Small pockets of expansion (from what I've seen on that map)... I'm not even impressed or enamored by it. I think the space Disney has is enough. Does anyone else feel this way?

[mickeyfan42]

Wow, mickeyfan42, that is a really in depth look at what they should do in terms of long term business plans! I definitely agree that they should leave to grow, whatever they do. I'm not as well versed in their current zoning, or even what the neighboring business dynamics, but I wonder if GardenWalk's problems would necessarily bleed over to a Disney shopping/entertainment district across the street. I'd imagine that actually Disney's area would do fine, since people would come to town specifically for it (especially if there's a new Disney hotel there) and the further damage to GardenWalk from the poached business would then make it easier for Disney to eventually buy it out. It's brutal, and not really as nice to the city of Anaheim as I think Disney is trying to be with DisneylandForward, but it'd be an effective way to plan growth if nothing else.

On the more creative/amateur imagineering side, I would definitely prefer the Toy Story lot to be a hybrid shopping/entertainment/hotel area to replace Downtown Disney rather than become its own gate. It comes down to the difference between Disneyland and Walt Disney World to me; Disneyland and DCA is a walking resort, inside a city but well sheltered like an oasis, while WDW is a sprawling city of loosely connected parks that require buses and shuttles. It might just be across the street and down a block, but I'm just not a fan of leaving the resort entirely for another park, I think it would break the magic bubble. I wouldn't mind it for shopping or a show though.

Now for the land west of the two parks, it's an odd shape but I think it could definitely work as a third gate, especially if they got rid of the Paradise Pier Hotel. Again, kind of a brutal move, but if there's a new hotel (or two) on the Toy Story lot, go for it to make a way better park on land that's still connected to the two parks we have. A new park opens up what they can do for theming lands, and from a business perspective is a bigger draw to get guests to stay extra days than simply adding lands. I do think for a third gate here to make sense PPH needs to go, otherwise the size difference between it and the existing parks will make pricing really funky.

I worry about Tomorrowland, Hollywoodland, and Paradise Garden Park (which I'm honestly more disappointed in than Hollywoodland) no matter what the DisneylandFoward plan ends up being, and can only hope that they left enough money and energy to address them in the next few years. I'd rather see them fixed before a third gate/expanded lands, honestly, because if not the comparison between them and brand new lands will be embarrassing, but they might be planning on using the publicity/money from new stuff to cover such significant closures.

I have to disagree about an offsite shopping area that isn't directly attached to getting to a park (aka buy GW and have that be your East Side shopping). As an out of town guest, I'm not wasting my time going anywhere that isn't directly in my path between the hotel shuttle drop off and a park with the exclusion of current DTD because it is right next to the parks and I can grab last minute souvenirs on my way out on my last night. Off site shopping? Not worth it at all, especially knowing that retail in general is dying (as evidenced by this past year), and just don't see how Disney developing the Toy Story lot into anything other than its current use will do anything but help the GW property. While there are about 60 acres in the land the parking lots take up on the West side, putting a 3rd gate there would royally screw over both DL & DCA for potential future growth. Also, when you look at it from an aerial view, the Toy Story Lot only feels like its a distance away because Disney doesn't own GW yet and therefore can't have all their existing property on the East Side of Harbor be connected yet, but GW is the ONLY missing link needed to pull that off. Plus, 75 acres is WAY too big for additional shopping and dining, even if they had a hotel on that area too. Plus, for a long term health of the resort, it would be foolish to do anything but a park on that property because if all they do is theme park (whether a very awkwardly shaped 3rd park or expansions to both existing parks) in those West Side lots, we'll be completely out of room for either park to grow out, and have wasted the only other plot of Land Disney will ever have close to the existing parks. It's not like we're talking about Angel Stadium. Imagine you have no borders to the parks and you could walk right out of Cars Land to the street, literally you would just have to cross the street twice to the opposite corner and of the street and you'd be at the 3rd gate, that is closer than any 2 parks at WDW are and you won't need shuttles. If you're a local, just plan accordingly on which parks you want to go to that day, and if you primarily want to go to the 3rd gate, park at the Eastern Gateway instead of Mickey & Friends. Those of us staying at the good neighbor hotels would already be getting dropped off at that site anyway. Also, if feasible, I'd probably add a skyliner that would have stations at the current DTD monorail station to service DL, DCA, DLH, PPH, GCH, and DTD, the Eastern Gateway to service everyone who parked over there or got dropped off over there, and the entrance to the 3rd Gate which would also service the GW property.

[RapunzelsCabbage]

Doesn't Anaheim have the Convention Center, Anaheim Stadium (which hosts many games and concerts), hockey, and Knott's? And my favorite bagel place (Blue Mountain Bagel Co)?

I lived in Anaheim for a time, and for a big chunk of that time, I didn't visit Disneyland. In fact, when I had to go to bed early for work, Disneyland was a nuisance –– the fireworks were loud, I couldn't sleep, and I'm sure my older neighbors were probably just as annoyed by the noise as I was. Disney magic from afar is not as magical.

I know Disney is a hunk and a moneymaker, but it hurts to see the words: "you have no Disneyland, you have nothing." Anaheim has so much character. I believe it shouldn't be entirely consumed by the mouse's empire, no matter how much money Mickey rakes in.

Small pockets of expansion (from what I've seen on that map)... I'm not even impressed or enamored by it. I think the space Disney has is enough. Does anyone else feel this way?

I definitely see your point, and that was my initial reaction too to be honest. Disneyland has a bad track record with how it treats expansion further into Anaheim, so as much as I like the idea of more Disneyland, I do have the caveat that I'll only support DisneylandForward as long as Anaheim does and right now it's a bit early to tell. As much as the last year might have shown what an economic boon Disneyland is to Anaheim, it also showed that Disney actually isn't the boss and they need good relationships with their neighbors, because you're exactly right there are plenty of other Anaheim staples that could step up.

There was a pretty good amount of talk in their release about keeping a harmonious relationship with Anaheim, about giving back and helping the town with non-Disney projects. It made me cautiously hopeful, I'll say! It's also why I don't want to speculate too much on growth outside of land they already own. Repurposing land into more entertainment certainly has the risk of sound and light bleed-over like you mention, but the (very early stages and likely to change drastically) concept art they released already had a lot of those ever-important barriers, so keeping things enclosed is clearly at least on their mind.

I hope you don't mind that you've kind of accidentally pushed me toward the idea of land expansions over a new park though, because a new park would mean a new nighttime show and if anything will cause more sound and light bleed over to the surrounding neighborhood it's that, but this time one block closer to actual residences.

[Co Foo]

One thing that should be noted about a third gate is that also means a third admission cost. If you expand a park, you still get to experience the new land included in the existing admission cost.

[Sukie Norman]

It actually depends on what perspective you are going to look into. What makes you interested in this? Is it a survey on which will profit most in the long run based on the answers here?

[mickdaddy]

ok, here's the extremely long thoughts on this:

1) They need to get the Eastern Gateway approved and built before they can do ANY redevelopment of the existing ground level parking lots (West Side and Toy Story) because adding too much more to the parks while taking away parking will make the parking situations worse.

2) No matter what they want to do, they probably need to get expansion approvals for the West Side parking lots if we still want new attractions without having to replace anything that exists, and right now, without having to permanently cut parades, they have the expansion pad behind the Quinjet that is earmarked for an Avengers E-ticket later, a pad between Galaxy's Edge and Toon Town that will most likely go to Star Wars, some room in Tomorrowland since it needs a MASSIVE overhaul, and the same for Hollywood (including being able to expand north into the current shuttle drop off zone if Eastern Gateway gets approved, and probably room for another solid dark ride on the pier using the band stand area as the entrance and going in behind or in place of the boardwalk games (do we really need the physical games when we have Midway Mania?), as well as potentially some Fantasyland areas like the theater and the old Motor Boat Cruise)

3) If all they make a shopping district in the Toy Story lot (which has been zoned for a park since before Disney purchased the land in the 90s) they'll still going to run out of room eventually using just those West Side parking lots to expand out, and I give that about 15-20 years max before we run into that problem again. Also, they will never be able to get another parcel of 75 acres of connected land that close to the parks to do a 3rd gate.

4) GardenWalk is right across the street from the Toy Story lot and has been struggling ever since it opened over 10 years ago, and they're probably hurting now too because House of Blues hasn't been able to have live shows since the pandemic started, and the theater only just reopened and those are easily the 2 most profitable venues on that property. Disney opening their own shopping district across the street doesn't make sense.

5) If you build a 3rd gate in the Toy Story lot and it doesn't suck like DCA 1.0 did, and you intentionally under build it at first to give it some room for future growth like they did with DCA, you buy yourself more time before space becomes an issue, again, and more opportunity for different areas that won't break theme with either DL or DCA (for instance, a Wakanda area would make NO sense in either of those parks).

So what would I do if I were Disney? I would still seek out the zoning approvals. then, I would aggressively go after the GardenWalk property to use as their East Side shopping district. Then I'd get Eastern Gateway started and break ground on a 3rd gate at the Toy Story property to open before DL's 75th anniversary (we have 9 years), using GW as a way to funnel the guests from EG through shopping to get to the park, much like how DLH, and PPH guests are funneled through DTD to get to the Esplanade. Then, I'd start on the Hollywood and Tomorrowland overhauls since they both desperately need it after the 3rd gate opens). Then, I would cycle the new expansions for the parks between all 3 and placing them based on what makes the most sense for each park. I think if they don't do a 3rd park, we are out of room to grow again by 2035, if we get the 3rd park I think we by ourselves at least an extra 15-20 years before we run into that problem.

I agree with this but I have a different timeline for it. I agree that they need to aggressively go after the Garden walk property and build a 3rd gate at the Toy story lot. However I think they need to start with the Eastern Gateway first then attack Tomorrowland and Hollywood land expansions and fixes along with complete the E ticket for Avengers campus. They could break ground on the garden walk redevelopment and 3rd gate towards the end of these expansions and have those areas ready to go by the 75 Anniversary. I can see some expansion of the parks into the existing DTD area once the garden walk is properly developed.

[mickdaddy]

One thing that should be noted about a third gate is that also means a third admission cost. If you expand a park, you still get to experience the new land included in the existing admission cost.

I think any expansion will equal a price increase. They have consistently increased price without expansion so I don't think it needs a 3rd gate to have a higher cost. It may actually spread guests out enough to lower ticket costs since the increases seem to be designed to keep people away because of over crowding.

[Co Foo]

I think any expansion will equal a price increase. They have consistently increased price without expansion so I don't think it needs a 3rd gate to have a higher cost. It may actually spread guests out enough to lower ticket costs since the increases seem to be designed to keep people away because of over crowding.

Expansions will mean an incremental cost of an existing ticket. Costs always go up with or without an expansion.

A third gate will require a third ticket entirely. You're not going to get into the new park with just your Disneyland ticket.

[mickdaddy]

Expansions will mean an incremental cost of an existing ticket. Costs always go up with or without an expansion.

A third gate will require a third ticket entirely. You're not going to get into the new park with just your Disneyland ticket.

Why would you not get into the new park with your Disneyland ticket? That goes against every Disney park Ticket policy, You will still have 1 park tickets and park hopper tickets. Both would cover entry into the 3rd gate.

[Jesser-pie]

Why would you not get into the new park with your Disneyland ticket? That goes against every Disney park Ticket policy, You will still have 1 park tickets and park hopper tickets. Both would cover entry into the 3rd gate.

You would have to pay more for a park hopper or go an extra day to see the new park. If it’s new land, you could theoretically chose the lowest cost option (1 day no hopping) and see more than if it’s separate park.

[mickdaddy]

You would have to pay more for a park hopper or go an extra day to see the new park. If it’s new land, you could theoretically chose the lowest cost option (1 day no hopping) and see more than if it’s separate park.

That is true but if you really look at the value park hopper tickets are by far Disney's best value ticket.

[Jesser-pie]

That is true but if you really look at the value park hopper tickets are by far Disney's best value ticket.

I have to admit that I am biased against park hoppers since I don’t find them a value on a personal level. For the cost, I say just go another day and thus you’ll also have more time to enjoy the other park. Value is really subjective.

[mickdaddy]

I have to admit that I am biased against park hoppers since I don’t find them a value on a personal level. For the cost, I say just go another day and thus you’ll also have more time to enjoy the other park. Value is really subjective.

Coming from an out of state prospective I love the park hopper option especially with the parks being so close. Also I am not sold on DCA being a full day park. For me its a nice escape from the crowds of Disneyland and while I love sections of DCA I can get through most of what I want to do in a few hours so I love the option of bouncing back and forth between the 2 parks. You are right on Value being subjective. Based on Price point alone the best value is a multi-day hopper pass.