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5 Million Dollar Magic Key Lawsuit Filed.

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  • Originally posted by merlinjones View Post
    Since when is a day at Disneyland always a "vacation?" Of course it can be but for many Californians it can just be a day off to relax and unwind. Seems like an unfair "yield" bias. Should guests be punished simply because they live within driving distance of the park?

    Were Walt's "Daddy's Day'' visits to Griffith Park with Diane and Sharon (that inspired Disneyland) a "vacation?"
    It became a vacation day when the parks became super popular tourist destinations as well as a place for locals. Unfortunately it’s just a case of supply and demand. The same can be said for lots of spaces now. Two beach parks near my place have become so popular you need to arrive at 6:30 AM to get a parking spot and enjoy the day, just ten years ago we could arrive at 9:30 or 10 and there would be ample space, times change and in order to enjoy the same things we have to adapt which can often “suck”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by merlinjones View Post
      Since when is a day at Disneyland always a "vacation?"
      Since Disneyland became marketed as a "resort."


      Oh, and I took the liberty of fixing the following for you...

      Originally posted by merlinjones View Post
      Seems like an unfair "yield" bias. Should guests yield units be punished simply because they live within driving distance of the park?
      "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
      it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
      together with every variety of recreation and fun,
      designed to appeal to everyone."

      - Walt Disney

      "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
      - Michael Eisner

      "It's very symbiotic."
      - Bob Chapek

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post

        Since Disneyland became marketed as a "resort."


        Oh, and I took the liberty of fixing the following for you...



        So true
        Mr Wiggins the cost of a day at Disneyland is higher than ever before while its value has never been lower.

        Far better things to do with your time and money by and large. I mean actually paying money to be further nickel and dimed by a bean counter like Chapel is just too much.

        Like
        Eagleman
        Lord of the Sky
        Eagleman is fond of saying, there's more to life than Disney.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by merlinjones View Post
          Since when is a day at Disneyland always a "vacation?" Of course it can be but for many Californians it can just be a day off to relax and unwind. Seems like an unfair "yield" bias. Should guests be punished simply because they live within driving distance of the park?

          Were Walt's "Daddy's Day'' visits to Griffith Park with Diane and Sharon (that inspired Disneyland) a "vacation?"
          Since the price to visit became commensurate with going on a full on vacation.

          We live under a two hour drive away. You’d think we could look at it like a fun family day but, really, it’s the same cost to go there for two days (not even on property mind you) that it would be to get on a plane and travel to Hawaii or Canada right now. Same amount of hotel days, cost on food, and etc...

          I get your indignation. Truly I do and I’m right there with you. But, for whatever reason, the powers that be really don’t want you to think of them as a day trip anymore.
          You know, I have the strangest feeling that I've seen that ship before. A long time ago, when I was very young. ―George Darling
          It seems to me that we have a lot of story yet to tell. ― Walt Disney

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post

            Since Disneyland became marketed as a "resort."


            Yep!

            I really don’t get it though. Who in the organization looked at the numbers and said “let’s make the barrier to entry this high and get more people to want to visit less and really think next time their comparing us against other things they could be doing”???
            You know, I have the strangest feeling that I've seen that ship before. A long time ago, when I was very young. ―George Darling
            It seems to me that we have a lot of story yet to tell. ― Walt Disney

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Mom kissed Walt View Post
              ...Who in the organization looked at the numbers and said “let’s make the barrier to entry this high and get more people to want to visit less and really think next time their comparing us against other things they could be doing”???
              The same people who thought it would be a great idea to promote Paul Pressler from head of Disney Stores to head of Disney Parks, and promote Bob Chapek from head of Disney Parks to CEO of the Disney Company.

              "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
              it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
              together with every variety of recreation and fun,
              designed to appeal to everyone."

              - Walt Disney

              "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
              - Michael Eisner

              "It's very symbiotic."
              - Bob Chapek

              Comment


              • I hope the lawsuit compels Disney to change the reservation system, or better yet, to get rid of it altogether. I think the lawsuit has merit. A Dream Key holder can purchase a 365-day pass, with no blockout dates. Yet the key holder must still make a park reservation. If a Dream Key holder cannot make a reservation for a certain day, yet someone purchasing a hard ticket can still reserve that same day, then that date is effectively blocked out for the Dream Key holder. The program as advertised is deceptive.

                The guy that posts informative Disneyland videos on YouTube as "Fresh Baked" posted a good video yesterday about the lawsuit. He points out that reservations are subject to "availability". But how is availability determined? Who decides how many Magic Keys can reserve for a specific date? My cynical take on this is that the Disney managers want to sell lots of Magic Keys, getting money upfront, but they also love to sell hard tickets. Thus, the current Dream Key is a deceptive scam. In my mind, no amount of legalese in the fine print can change that.

                My poor opinion of the reservation system is affected by my status as a tourist visiting from Northern California. I would have to make hotel reservations, airline reservations if flying, perhaps kennel reservations for pets, and now park reservations for each day. It also seems that it has been difficult to make meal reservations. This juggling act is a mess. To me, it's simply not worth the stress.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by merlinjones View Post
                  Since when is a day at Disneyland always a "vacation?" Of course it can be but for many Californians it can just be a day off to relax and unwind. Seems like an unfair "yield" bias. Should guests be punished simply because they live within driving distance of the park?

                  Were Walt's "Daddy's Day'' visits to Griffith Park with Diane and Sharon (that inspired Disneyland) a "vacation?"
                  None of these are even remotely legal arguments.


                  Disney will say in court that a service it offers, which is designed and marketed as a way to obtain a discounted Disneyland Resort vacation, requiring you to make your reservations a month or two in advance is perfectly reasonable within existing industry standards. They will say the contract was clear, and if people thought it would function similar to the old annual pass program then that is of course unfortunate but also entirely their own failure to do due diligence about the product they were buying, because Disney never said or even implied that the Magic Key program it introduced would operate along the same lines as the old AP program. A company discontinuing a product that you feel represented a good value and replacing it with a product you feel represents a bad value might be a 'bad' thing to do from all sorts of perspectives, but it certainly isn't an illegal thing to do.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Tomorrowland67 View Post
                    I hope the lawsuit compels Disney to change the reservation system, or better yet, to get rid of it altogether. I think the lawsuit has merit. A Dream Key holder can purchase a 365-day pass, with no blockout dates. Yet the key holder must still make a park reservation. If a Dream Key holder cannot make a reservation for a certain day, yet someone purchasing a hard ticket can still reserve that same day, then that date is effectively blocked out for the Dream Key holder. The program as advertised is deceptive.
                    As I understand it this only has merit if you can successfully argue that, when Disney told people buying a Magic Key that there would be a limited number of Magic Key reservations each day, it did so in a way that would reasonably lead people to believe at the time of purchase that the only limit on the total Magic Key reservations would be the maximum operating capacity of the park. I seriously doubt this can be successfully argued. A strategy that conflates "reservations sold out" with "blockout date" isn't going to be successful; these are different concepts (outside of entirely hypothetical ridiculous extreme scenarios, like them offering zero reservations each day).

                    I also hope the lawsuit compels Disney to treat its guests better, but because of the PR, not because of the legal merit.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tomorrowland67 View Post
                      ...The guy that posts informative Disneyland videos on YouTube as "Fresh Baked" posted a good video yesterday about the lawsuit. He points out that reservations are subject to "availability". But how is availability determined? Who decides how many Magic Keys can reserve for a specific date? My cynical take on this is that the Disney managers want to sell lots of Magic Keys, getting money upfront, but they also love to sell hard tickets. Thus, the current Dream Key is a deceptive scam. In my mind, no amount of legalese in the fine print can change that.
                      And that will be the takeaway in the minds of the public. Disney will no doubt win on legal grounds. But while their lawyers congratulate themselves on their cleverness, they will ignore the negative impact to the Disney brand.

                      "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
                      it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
                      together with every variety of recreation and fun,
                      designed to appeal to everyone."

                      - Walt Disney

                      "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
                      - Michael Eisner

                      "It's very symbiotic."
                      - Bob Chapek

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post

                        And that will be the takeaway in the minds of the public. Disney will no doubt win on legal grounds. But while their lawyers congratulate themselves on their cleverness, they will ignore the negative impact to the Disney brand.
                        This is right on the money, I think.

                        Comment


                        • Remember again that the standards in California consumer protection laws don't care how legally sound and perfectly written the contract is. I'm sure technically all of tickets have terms that don't guarantee admission, reservations, and even state no refund even if you can't ride a single ride or you have a personal emergency and have to leave right after you go through the turnstile. But California still has their PAGA act and consumer rights laws that overrule any consumer contract. If the application of the contract is considered deceptive to the average person or otherwise anti-consumer then it is still illegal in California. This is the most anti-business, pro-consumer court system in America and probably in the world. You can declare the massive annual profit of the company to be evidence in your legal argument thanks to PAGA. That is why Disney wants the decision to be based on Florida laws. If they get their way it is a quick guaranteed victory. If it stays in California they will settle rapidly. California PAGA (Private Attorney General Act) is so crazy that they could face verdicts charging far beyond the monetary value of the Magic Key. They won't ever get to a verdict stage here.
                          ClownLoach
                          MiceChatter
                          Last edited by ClownLoach; 12-31-2021, 03:29 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ClownLoach View Post
                            Remember again that the standards in California consumer protection laws don't care how legally sound and perfectly written the contract is. I'm sure technically all of tickets have terms that don't guarantee admission, reservations, and even state no refund even if you can't ride a single ride or you have a personal emergency and have to leave right after you go through the turnstile. But California still has their PAGA act and consumer rights laws that overrule any consumer contract. If the application of the contract is considered deceptive to the average person or otherwise anti-consumer then it is still illegal in California. This is the most anti-business, pro-consumer court system in America and probably in the world. You can declare the massive annual profit of the company to be evidence in your legal argument thanks to PAGA. That is why Disney wants the decision to be based on Florida laws. If they get their way it is a quick guaranteed victory. If it stays in California they will settle rapidly. California PAGA (Private Attorney General Act) is so crazy that they could face verdicts charging far beyond the monetary value of the Magic Key. They won't ever get to a verdict stage here.
                            Can you please link an article from a reputable source that says Disney is trying to get this litigated based on Florida law because Disney has not said that in any way as far as I can tell.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Golden Zephyr View Post

                              So true
                              Mr Wiggins the cost of a day at Disneyland is higher than ever before while its value has never been lower.

                              Far better things to do with your time and money by and large. I mean actually paying money to be further nickel and dimed by a bean counter like Chapel is just too much.

                              Like
                              Eagleman
                              Lord of the Sky
                              Eagleman is fond of saying, there's more to life than Disney.
                              You have my X2
                              Soaring like an EAGLE !

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TacAlert View Post

                                It's a lost cause. But if you and others think this lawsuit will succeed, bravo to you. To me it was very clear that no block out dates meant you could attempt to make a reservation on any day,, but did not guarantee admission. Just like the old annual passes. Admission was not guaranteed on the top tier pass. Have a Merry Christmas.
                                Merry Christmas, and a happy new year! I think I've been clear I don't think the suit will succeed, but rather that the hazy facts could survive a motion to dismiss if argued correctly. Reaching that stage would make a settlement more likely, rather than just paying millions for all-out warfare.

                                Originally posted by bigcatrik View Post

                                Since you're a lawyer, could this have been one of those cases raised simply to get a response, and now that we see the reservations much more open (next four days, and beyond, are wide open for Dream Keys) it gets dropped by the plaintiff(s)? I assume those with Dream Keys would rather spend their time at Disneyland than in a court room.
                                I think the plaintiff's lawyer probably took the case on contingency, is hoping for a decent settlement and some positive press for himself. I doubt the client was the one actually wanting their money back or more dates opened up, but is just a willing participant.

                                Originally posted by TacAlert View Post

                                Or it could be they just want to let more people in. Maybe they are not expecting as many out of town visitors now with all the hype in the news about Omicron.
                                I think this is key to Disney winning, frankly. Even if the plaintiff was right, Disney has already fixed the problem by opening up more dates frequently for the different key levels and the case is now moot.

                                Originally posted by BasilOregano View Post

                                The defense from Disney will be that the Magic Key is a tool to make future reservations, not same day admission like the old Annual Pass, and that they did enough in the marketing and contracts and such that this should have been be known to the purchaser.

                                I think Magic Key may well be awful, but the purpose of the legal system isn't to right wrongs, it's to enforce the existing law, and I really doubt Magic Key is legitimately legally problematic. Disney has a huge legal department; they looked at it.
                                Disney doesn't really have a defense to why Magic Keyholders can't get a reservation on the same day when one-day ticketholders can. There's nothing in the contract that discloses they're separate. Frankly, that is a legal oversight to me. And it doesn't matter how large their legal department is, they aren't infallible. Even then, an airtight contract wouldn't trump business interests, otherwise Disney wouldn't have settled the Scarlett Johannsen case after maligning her in the press, disclosing her salary, and firing her from all other projects.

                                Originally posted by BasilOregano View Post
                                Sure -- it's possible to take a lot of not-super-great behavior to extremes so extreme that you run into actual legal exposure. But Disney isn't doing this. If the Magic Key wait time is something like two months in advance it will be very, very easy for Disney to argue that this is a reasonable frame of time in which to ask people to begin making their vacations plans based on industry standards.
                                Not long after Magic Key first started, Disney literally had no reservations available for the entire 3-month period for any Keyholders, and that didn't change until negative press articles started coming out. If things stayed that way, would that be reasonable behavior? If everyone with Magic Keys could only plan one day at a time, only trying via midnight lotteries to get a reservation, good luck arguing that would be in line with industry standards when everyone who wasn't a Keyholder could reserve a one- or mult-day pass up to the day of admittance in most cases. Only Disney knows exactly how many Keyholder reservations exist per day, and they haven't made that figure public. Until they do, I definitely wouldn't be able to say with confidence that the reservations available were reasonable during that early period.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by BasilOregano View Post

                                  As I understand it this only has merit if you can successfully argue that, when Disney told people buying a Magic Key that there would be a limited number of Magic Key reservations each day, it did so in a way that would reasonably lead people to believe at the time of purchase that the only limit on the total Magic Key reservations would be the maximum operating capacity of the park. I seriously doubt this can be successfully argued. A strategy that conflates "reservations sold out" with "blockout date" isn't going to be successful; these are different concepts (outside of entirely hypothetical ridiculous extreme scenarios, like them offering zero reservations each day).

                                  I also hope the lawsuit compels Disney to treat its guests better, but because of the PR, not because of the legal merit.
                                  Your argument only holds up if Disney has disclosed that one-day park pass reservations are only limited by max capacity. That's not the case, and Disney wouldn't hamstring themselves into admitting that in court in case that would be used against them in the future. Instead, the reason the reservation ambiguity gives this lawsuit power is because it isn't clear how many reservations are available for a ticket type, and you don't find out you're more limited than one-day passes until after you've already purchased a Magic Key.

                                  If you call Disney and ask if they have reservations available for next week, they would easily say yes. But when you check your non-blocked out Magic Key and find reservations are in fact not available, then you have both reasonable and legal justification to be angry. It's not about being allowed in anytime the park isn't at capacity, but rather about treating Magic Keyholders different from the rest of ticketholders.

                                  My own disclaimer: Keyholders are definitely different from regular ticketholders, and Disney isn't necessarily wrong to treat them as such. But it is wrong to not disclose that in the contract, which they clearly failed to do.

                                  On a different note, lawsuits frequently point to public comments by CEOs and press releases as indicators of a company's intentions. It's interesting how careful and corporatized Chapek was about not calling a Magic Key an annual pass, only to call it an annual pass membership a few months later. That mixed messaging could further make guest confusion reasonable to a judge.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by WaltDisney'sAlec View Post
                                    ...On a different note, lawsuits frequently point to public comments by CEOs and press releases as indicators of a company's intentions. It's interesting how careful and corporatized Chapek was about not calling a Magic Key an annual pass, only to call it an annual pass membership a few months later. That mixed messaging could further make guest confusion reasonable to a judge.
                                    That's especially pertinent when considering that Annual Passholders were a primary sales market for Magic Keys. Regardless of Disney cannily not calling them such, Magic Keys were commonly viewed as a new form of Annual Pass -- which for decades at DLR (and other So Cal theme parks) rewarded the purchasers of the highest tier with no blackout dates.

                                    "Disneyland is often called a magic kingdom because
                                    it combines fantasy and history, adventure and learning,
                                    together with every variety of recreation and fun,
                                    designed to appeal to everyone."

                                    - Walt Disney

                                    "Disneyland is all about turning movies into rides."
                                    - Michael Eisner

                                    "It's very symbiotic."
                                    - Bob Chapek

                                    Comment

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