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No Respect for the Rivers of America (Why F! Must Go)

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  • No Respect for the Rivers of America (Why F! Must Go)

    Yeah, yeah, yeah..."this again". It's a slow day, and it is my mission to scream my nutty head off until all agree with me (or just submit to my Will, which would be preferable to me personally ).

    The beautiful Ohio, the ol' Mississippi, the mighty Missouri--these are the waterways that I think of when I am able to cruise the Rivers of America.

    Like the wild Frontier of the 1800's, these Rivers were also conquered and pressed into the service of pioneering Americans; showcasing the indomitable spirit of the United States in its Westward Expansion period.

    "Here we experience the story of our country's past...
    the colorful drama of frontier America in the exciting days of the covered wagon and the stage coach, the advent of the railroad and the romantic riverboat. Frontierland is a tribute to the faith, courage and ingenuity of the pioneers who blazed the trails across America." - Walt Disney



    We all appear to be witnessing the erosion of Frontierland and arguably Disneyland's most beautiful feature: the ROA; and yet no one seems aware/concerned about this drastic shift away from Walt Disney's established framework for his 'favorite' Land (Disney even had to fund its completion out of his own pocket).

    Pirates and Fantasmic! have done more damage to Frontierland than any amount of neglect it has suffered over its long history, IMO. These two 'enhancements' have diminished the ROA, and perverted its purpose.

    As much as I dislike F! itself, I would still support it if it had even a shred of thematic continuity. But it hasn't. I would be interested in hearing your ideas regarding the justification of F! or PLOTSI on the ROA. I just can't find ANY reason in it. As soon as all reason has been abandoned in the theming of Frontierland, there will be no hope for it.

    F! fans argue its placement is justified by its popularity. Is this how one constructs a theme park? Why is public popularity and thematic adherence viewed as mutually exclusive concepts? Are we saying there are NO possible Frontierland-themed projects that could possibly generate public appeal?

    Theme needs to be taken more seriously IMO, and done right. Doing right is harder than doing what's easy. As anyone who has ever ridden the Mark Twain around the Rivers of America has heard:

    "Always do right - it will gratify some people and astonish the rest."

  • #2
    Re: No Respect for the Rivers of America (Why F! Must Go)

    I hate fantasmic. It needs to go.

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    • #3
      Re: No Respect for the Rivers of America (Why F! Must Go)

      Originally posted by SCUBAbe View Post
      I hate fantasmic. It needs to go.
      I always knew I was especially fond of you, but I never really knew why...'til now.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: No Respect for the Rivers of America (Why F! Must Go)

        You're dismissing what Fantasmic! is. It's a figment of Mickey's imagination. In that, it transcends the space its performed on.
        Besides, during the day, the River is exactly the same (minus Laffite's Tavern) as it was before Fantasmic!
        Fantasmic! makes use of a space that was closed at dusk anyways, and finds great ways to incorporate the river traffic into its story.

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        • #5
          Re: No Respect for the Rivers of America (Why F! Must Go)

          Originally posted by mrfantasmic View Post
          You're dismissing what Fantasmic! is. It's a figment of Mickey's imagination. In that, it transcends the space its performed on.
          Besides, during the day, the River is exactly the same (minus Laffite's Tavern) as it was before Fantasmic!
          Fantasmic! makes use of a space that was closed at dusk anyways, and finds great ways to incorporate the river traffic into its story.
          exactly, it takes once was a really nice relaxing area to be in at night and turns it into one of the most crowded intense nightmares for hours on end. It's ridiculous!

          I did catch part of the show once. they spray river water up and play cartoons on it. The river water smells so bad. I left when the crane came up with what appeared to be hefty garbage bags all over it. It was just really bad. I was later told that was suppose to be a dragon...Ok

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          • #6
            Re: No Respect for the Rivers of America (Why F! Must Go)

            Originally posted by mrfantasmic View Post
            You're dismissing what Fantasmic! is. It's a figment of Mickey's imagination. In that, it transcends the space its performed on.
            Besides, during the day, the River is exactly the same (minus Laffite's Tavern) as it was before Fantasmic!
            Fantasmic! makes use of a space that was closed at dusk anyways, and finds great ways to incorporate the river traffic into its story.
            Why is Mickey on Tom Sawyer/Pirate Island at all? He's not there during operational hours; directly implying (and rightly so) that he doesn't belong there ('course, 17th century buccaneers have no business there either, so...).

            Fantasmic! isn't visible during the day, thank the Maker, but it shuts down an entire attraction for the duration of the entire evening. It has a profound effect on the ROA and Frontierland. Pirates take over by day, F! by night.

            I know you are a BIG fan of F!, probably as big a fan as I am of Frontierland. I have laid out my argument as to why it DOESN'T belong--I would like to hear yours explaining why it DOES belong in the Frontier of the 1850's.

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            • #7
              Re: No Respect for the Rivers of America (Why F! Must Go)

              I do parties, if anyone wants to pay for a light show.


              and no Rivers are disturbed.
              Originally posted by Grumpee
              I only care for Disney bling!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: No Respect for the Rivers of America (Why F! Must Go)

                Originally posted by Duck44 View Post
                I do parties, if anyone wants to pay for a light show.


                and no Rivers are disturbed.
                You'd 'do' anything. And incidentally, you ARE a party.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: No Respect for the Rivers of America (Why F! Must Go)

                  Originally posted by fo'c's'le swab View Post
                  You'd 'do' anything. And incidentally, you ARE a party.
                  gosh,

                  thank you for the compliment.

                  To show my gratitude I will go back and actually read your post.
                  Originally posted by Grumpee
                  I only care for Disney bling!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: No Respect for the Rivers of America (Why F! Must Go)

                    You mean the Rivers of the Pirates of the Caribbean right?
                    There is no right or wrong in this debate. It is simply a matter of perspective.
                    -Dr. Strange

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                    • #11
                      Re: No Respect for the Rivers of America (Why F! Must Go)

                      Originally posted by Duck44 View Post
                      To show my gratitude I will go back and actually read your post.
                      (some of the BOLD mine)Thanks, you'd be one of a select few .

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: No Respect for the Rivers of America (Why F! Must Go)

                        Originally posted by Wren View Post
                        You mean the Rivers of the Pirates of the Caribbean right?
                        Unfortunately yes, the ROPOTC.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: No Respect for the Rivers of America (Why F! Must Go)

                          Of course I agree. The rivers certainly are NOT the same, even during the day, no matter how the F! apologists try to convince us otherwise. The shoreline facing NOS used to be wonderfully rustic. It's clearly a stage now, even with its modest "camoflage."

                          As for Pirates...please. I hadn't been to Disneyland for a year and a half before I went in late November. I took a ride on the Mark Twain--with an open mind--and was appalled to see all the "nautical" things on the island as we went around. Did it ruin the ride? It sure did if I looked in that direction. What once was a tranquil ride on American rivers has been utterly destroyed. Where once I was in 1830s Missouri, I was only reminded that I was in 21st century Anaheim.

                          Many things were lost with these two additions. Even the Columbia has had to have her authentic rigging and sails modified to accommodate "F!" What a loss...

                          I love that Walt quote about the "romantic riverboat." Too bad you can't ride it in the evening, at its most romantic--unless it's the dead of winter.

                          As I've said before--and in all seriousnes, without a hint of hyperbole--we're witnessing the utter destruction of Disneyland as a Theme Park, as it devolves into nothing more than Universal Studion Anaheim. Color me disgusted.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: No Respect for the Rivers of America (Why F! Must Go)

                            i can see now why you have the grinch as your icon.
                            Just kidding of course.


                            But keep in mind, Fantasmic is just a short 20 minute show they only do on the busy nights. The rest of the time its still the rivers of America.

                            mrfantasmic is right. The show is about imagination. And imagination is something you're suppose to be able to utilize anywhere. Thats part of the charm, that they can take what is otherwise a very ordinary stage, and turn it into a spectacle of light and color.

                            And while you dismiss it as cartoons on a screen, and a cheap garbage bag dragon, please remember that for over ten years, families have lined up hours in advance to see all the action. For a child, its all very real. And most adults can appreciate the level of difficulty it is to put on a show of that scale, with that many actors, with that many fireworks, etc. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but of course so are they.

                            I'll agree that Frontierland has lost the focus it used to generate back in the day. But I don't think that a 20 minute show that runs only on busy days is really the problem.

                            And I strongly disagree with wording like "perverted its purpose". Its purpose is to look like a river. It does that. Sure its a flashy river... but if you want the quiet river scene, go to Hungry Bear.

                            You're right that things can be both popular and fit the theme. But at the same time, I think we're all a little too uptight about the standards of Disneyland. When paint is chipping, yes we should be vocal about noticing it. But when we start complaining about a 20 minute celebration of imagination, then I think we kind of forget what the whole point of Disneyland is.

                            And that is to have a place where families can go to have a fun time together.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: No Respect for the Rivers of America (Why F! Must Go)

                              Gotta love slow days...and here I was going to leave work early.

                              I completely agree with you that F! needs to go. Not because of theme issues, or anything of course (because that would be way too much thinking on my part). I personally would be no happier with a properly themed F! in that area. The ROA especially at night should be a nice quiet place to hang out, watch the waters and spend time enjoying the park and its beauty at night.

                              Instead, with F! its a crowded nightmare to manuver, enter this way, exit that way...and God forbid you have a small child with a stroller...not possible. I have to specifically plan to be as far away from NOS/Frontierland at night, which sucks because it means no "one last time on PoTC before we leave".

                              A little piece of heaven

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