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  • #21
    Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep "it's a small world" a classic.

    Originally posted by Club 33 Mike View Post
    Funny to think that the minds at Disney can be changed by a group of hard core Disney fanatics that probably make up way less than 1% of that parks attendance. Online pettitions, blogs, and emails wont do anything.

    Does anyone actually think that Disney would stop whatever changes they are making right in the middle of the project, and reverse course? These changes have been planned for a long time, and for them to now change would surely mean they wouldnt be able to reopen the ride for the holidays.

    Sorry to bring reality to this situation, but whats done, is done. If the general public finds the new version of the ride to be crap, then they will stop riding it. At that point when the turnstyle clicks plumment, then they will change. Think of it like Pirates Lair, most every hard core Disney fan on this site hates what they did, but if you look at the numbers, that island is as popular as ever.
    It's generally accepted that the massive "Save Mr. Toad's Wild Ride" campaign, while not successful in Florida, is one of the reasons the attraction still exists at Disneyland.
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    • #22
      Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep "it's a small world" a classic.

      Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
      I understand why America isn't present, and I think it's a good move. It's supposed to remove attention from our own nationality, and allow us to focus on that of others and the idea that we can all live together in peace.
      Agreed. I certainly appreciate the reasoning behind America's exclusion from the attraction. It is merely an addition I can live with, since it doesn't directly impact the message, IMO. However, the removal of scenes to accomodate this new 'room' is unwise.
      At the end of the day, adding America wouldn't necessarily bother me, but I think removing an entire scene in favor of it is in poor taste. Not only does it alter the message of the original show designers, but it takes away more of Mary Blair's iconic work in favor of a knock off painted in red, white, and blue.
      Heartily agreed.

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      • #23
        Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep "it's a small world" a classic.

        I gonna bet that a public protest would have little or no positive effect. A well written emotionally neutral letter will have a more positive effect. It will not have much of an effect, perhaps even less than an infinitesimal effect, but at least it would be seen as well reasoned. A protest would be seen by many as over the top. The protesters would be in effect protesting about 'minor' changes to a ride in an amusement park. Trying to spin that into a positive would be hard IMHO.
        Originally posted by SummerInFL
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        • #24
          Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep "it's a small world" a classic.

          There are two ways of looking at this, both of which should support this project in its entirety.

          Firstly, Small World has been in horrible shape for a long time, and scenes like that did not make sense from the start. When Walt Disney moved this attraction from the World's Fair, he cut several scenes, and made modifications, because this ride is not a piece of "art." At the time, WED wanted to flood the building, but Walt wanted to reuse the cheap trough to save money. This is no act of history or art. It is a ride in a theme park, and Small World is an experience that allows children to see and hear different parts of the world. None of this has any real historical or artistic significance, and it was viewed as cheesy and mediocre the day that the ride opened. The claim to fame of this ride was that it was filled with animatronics and it has a big clock - there is no huge push to preserve any single scene, especially the aforementioned one, which is a meaningless hodgepodge of random animals. Doesn't this scene seem jumbled to you?

          Secondly, don't you have faith in the current management's track record? While Disney of the late 1990's had a tendency to destroy things, like Tarzan's Treehouse and Tiki Room UNM, the current administration has no such desire to wreck any classics. The Subs, Space Mountain, Jungle Cruise, Haunted Mansion, and all the countless refurbishments have been entirely tasteful, and I don't see the need to be hugely skeptical of what Disney does. The company has been doing some great work in the past several years, and I, personally, am excited to see what the imagineers have up their sleeves for this refurbishment.

          I must also note, the blog that is referenced to in the first post has no real "inside" connections, and is really only a group of disgruntled imagineers who have quit or were fired. Obviously they are going to protest anything that Disney changes, because they may have designed these things, or they may just have chips on their shoulders.

          As for Al Lutz, he has a history of not getting his facts straight, and while it's great that he gets the ideas out there for projects, you may have noticed that much of what he says never turns out to be true at all. This is because he often cites projects that were entirely blue sky, and implies that they are on the front burner. Also, he often says things that are flat-out untrue, as his sources are sometimes uninformed. I'm not saying that the man is spreading lies, but he is not someone to be basing a petition off of. This pattern is hard to realize for new readers, as Al Lutz takes down his older articles, and disallows you from recognizing any patterns.

          All I'm saying is, sit tight, and whatever Disney does to IASW will surely be tasteful, and if it really is a huge mess, then WDI will fix it. Spaceship Earth reopened in December in Epcot, and Disney freaks hated the second half of the ride, and the company went back and made major changes before the February opening. So, with that, relax. It will be fine, Small World will be a much better attraction when it opens, free of mold and boat jams.

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          • #25
            Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep "it's a small world" a classic.

            Originally posted by dl1955pounds View Post
            Firstly, Small World has been in horrible shape for a long time, and scenes like that did not make sense from the start. When Walt Disney moved this attraction from the World's Fair, he cut several scenes, and made modifications, because this ride is not a piece of "art." At the time, WED wanted to flood the building, but Walt wanted to reuse the cheap trough to save money. This is no act of history or art. It is a ride in a theme park, and Small World is an experience that allows children to see and hear different parts of the world. None of this has any real historical or artistic significance, and it was viewed as cheesy and mediocre the day that the ride opened. The claim to fame of this ride was that it was filled with animatronics and it has a big clock - there is no huge push to preserve any single scene, especially the aforementioned one, which is a meaningless hodgepodge of random animals. Doesn't this scene seem jumbled to you?
            That you dismiss "it's a small world" as nothing more than a "mediocre" theme park ride is quite telling. If you fail to see the artistic value of the show, then I wonder how you get enjoyment out of Disneyland as a whole.
            Originally posted by dl1955pounds View Post
            Secondly, don't you have faith in the current management's track record? While Disney of the late 1990's had a tendency to destroy things, like Tarzan's Treehouse and Tiki Room UNM, the current administration has no such desire to wreck any classics. The Subs, Space Mountain, Jungle Cruise, Haunted Mansion, and all the countless refurbishments have been entirely tasteful, and I don't see the need to be hugely skeptical of what Disney does. The company has been doing some great work in the past several years, and I, personally, am excited to see what the imagineers have up their sleeves for this refurbishment.
            The Haunted Mansion, Jungle Cruise, and Space Mountain al received refurbishments and show enhancements that stayed true to the show.

            I find it interesting you conveniently left out controversial changes like Pirates of the Caribbean and Tom Sawyer Island.
            Originally posted by dl1955pounds View Post
            I must also note, the blog that is referenced to in the first post has no real "inside" connections, and is really only a group of disgruntled imagineers who have quit or were fired. Obviously they are going to protest anything that Disney changes, because they may have designed these things, or they may just have chips on their shoulders.
            Right, they definitely don't have any interest in quality show and preserving the art and ideals of those before them.

            And of course, once they were fired they cut all contact with their former co-workers and artists. Of course, these sorts of creative professionals don't network... that would just be silly.
            Originally posted by dl1955pounds View Post
            As for Al Lutz, he has a history of not getting his facts straight, and while it's great that he gets the ideas out there for projects, you may have noticed that much of what he says never turns out to be true at all. This is because he often cites projects that were entirely blue sky, and implies that they are on the front burner. Also, he often says things that are flat-out untrue, as his sources are sometimes uninformed. I'm not saying that the man is spreading lies, but he is not someone to be basing a petition off of. This pattern is hard to realize for new readers, as Al Lutz takes down his older articles, and disallows you from recognizing any patterns.
            Recent leaks by Al that have been pretty correct.
            - Pirate's Lair
            - Pirates of the Caribbean
            - DCA expansion
            - Toy Story Midway Mania
            - Fort Wilderness demolition
            - New Monorail

            Originally posted by dl1955pounds View Post
            All I'm saying is, sit tight, and whatever Disney does to IASW will surely be tasteful, and if it really is a huge mess, then WDI will fix it. Spaceship Earth reopened in December in Epcot, and Disney freaks hated the second half of the ride, and the company went back and made major changes before the February opening. So, with that, relax. It will be fine, Small World will be a much better attraction when it opens, free of mold and boat jams.
            Spaceship Earth's second half is, as far as I can tell, still being panned as underwhelming and untrue to the attraction's core message and theme.
            Last edited by MasterGracey; 03-06-2008, 10:39 AM.

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            • #26
              Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep "it's a small world" a classic.

              >>and if it really is a huge mess, then WDI will fix it<<

              Like Swiss Family Treehouse, Tomorrowland, PeopleMover, Rocket Jets, Pooh/Country Bears, Cascade Peak, Pirate Ship, Tahitian Terrace, Imagination Pavillion, Johnny Depp?

              How long will we have to live with the trainwreck? 5, 10 years? Forever?

              Keep it from happenning in the first place.

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              • #27
                Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep &quot;it's a small world&quot; a classic.

                Originally posted by merlinjones View Post
                How long will we have to live with the trainwreck? 5, 10 years? Forever?

                Keep it from happenning in the first place.
                The whole idea that people are already calling this a trainwreck when it is still only a rumor bothers me more than anything.

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                • #28
                  Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep &quot;it's a small world&quot; a classic.

                  I will be writing Disney. Does anyone have Lassiter's and Rasulo's address?
                  Let's save the rainforest, I already live in America, the last place I need to see on Small World is America.

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                  • #29
                    Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep &quot;it's a small world&quot; a classic.

                    Originally posted by dl1955pounds View Post
                    All I'm saying is, sit tight, and whatever Disney does to IASW will surely be tasteful, and if it really is a huge mess, then WDI will fix it. Spaceship Earth reopened in December in Epcot, and Disney freaks hated the second half of the ride, and the company went back and made major changes before the February opening. So, with that, relax. It will be fine, Small World will be a much better attraction when it opens, free of mold and boat jams.

                    Relax? For how long? We're still stuck with a horrible late 90s Tomorrowland that ruined most of what was GOOD about tomorrowland. Cosmic Waves was a mess. Did they clean it up? No.. they just turned the water off. It's STILL THERE. Rocket Rods' failure should have been the first thing fixed, but nothing's happened.

                    What about Chip n Dale's Treehouse lately? You go up and then nothing. The empty ball pit is definitely looking gross. Donald's Boat? Good luck climbing around. You can only take the stairs now. They roped off everything else.

                    Winnie the Pooh is the worst version of any of the 4 Pooh rides world wide.

                    Weren't we supposed to be riding new monorails right now?

                    Anyone remember Rockin' Space Mountain?

                    The Subs is a disappointing use of the original ride.

                    Do I need to go into DCA?

                    I was eager to see what new exciting things would be coming to Disneyland since Eisner left but as far as I can tell, the decisions have not been great.


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                    • #30
                      Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep &quot;it's a small world&quot; a classic.

                      Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                      That you dismiss "it's a small world" as nothing more than a "mediocre" theme park ride is quite telling. If you fail to see the artistic value of the show, then I wonder how you get enjoyment out of Disneyland as a whole.
                      I was never a fan of the "Oh you don't really truly appreciate Disneyland, so your opinions have no merit" argument.

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                      • #31
                        Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep &quot;it's a small world&quot; a classic.

                        Originally posted by mrfantasmic View Post
                        I was never a fan of the "Oh you don't really truly appreciate Disneyland, so your opinions have no merit" argument.
                        I would stop reading Master Gracey posts then.

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                        • #32
                          Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep &quot;it's a small world&quot; a classic.

                          I agree with the various posters who think adding an American scene is not in itself a betrayal. I understand the argument that the original ride encourages Americans to think globally rather than nationally, but this message is subject to a big misunderstanding too: i.e., IASW is a look at exotic lands, a world "out there," not our world but another world. Yes, putting in an American scene could be misconstrued as "Yee haw, there we are, and ours is the best," but it can also be understood as enforcing the message that our country is only one part of the world. There's only one world, after all, and we can't ignore it because we are part of it (gee, I sound like Merry in LOTR).

                          On other points: Losing a Mary Blair-designed scene is regrettable, but putting in Disney figures reeks.

                          Yes, projects can be halted in their tracks, even at fairly advanced stages. Once upon a time an ambitious project to remodel the load area in the DL HM was cancelled for budgetary reasons just days (I am told) before it was set to go forward. Such cancellations are usually for financial reasons, but if a well-done protest leaves the impression that it isn't nostalgia but positive distaste that has fans up in arms, I'll bet a project CAN be reconsidered at any point.
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                          • #33
                            Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep &quot;it's a small world&quot; a classic.

                            Originally posted by mrfantasmic View Post
                            I was never a fan of the "Oh you don't really truly appreciate Disneyland, so your opinions have no merit" argument.
                            That's not what I was saying, was it?

                            I'm just wondering what, as a Disney fan and an active member of the online Disney community, do they get out of going t Disneyland if they don't acknowledge the artistic value of the park?

                            Disneyland relies heavily on artistry and showmanship. Saying that attractions like "its a small world" aren't art is a strange statement, especially coming from a Disney fan. I can understand if you don't like the art, but to dismiss it entirely as nothing more than a boat ride is simply absurd.

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                            • #34
                              Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep &quot;it's a small world&quot; a classic.

                              This effort is being conducted by a vocal minority and isn't going to hault anything. If they believed that most people would be bothered by it, they wouldn't do it.

                              To my knowledge, Disney has never altered their plans because of a group of fans who object to park changes. The best lead effort was to save Mr. Toad in WDW and he's long gone.

                              There's no good reason why IASW shouldn't evolve as other classics have inside of the park. IASW shouldn't remain stale just because a small group of people/purists feel it should remain as-is for their own satisfaction. The masses will flock to see the updated attraction.

                              While I don't support all of Disney's decisions, I do support their effort to make this tired attraction more interesting.

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                              • #35
                                Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep &quot;it's a small world&quot; a classic.

                                Marketing drives the organization. The MBA's ascertain if they modify Small World and have a whole huge ad campaign about "The World just got a whole lot smaller" New for 2009 "It's A smaller World" at Disneyland they will sell X number of additional tickets. They will have billboards everywhere for the "new and improved small world" radio adverts, tv commercials. Just like they did with the relaunch of Space Mountain. They sell more tickets. As for upsetting the hard core fan base, they don't care much. All the buzz and controversy just turns into more free advertising. Our only hope is this, that John Lasseter and Tony Baxter having final say in the redux and hopefully will make for certain that it is done tastefully. Hey folks I am upset about this to, to tell you the truth I wish they would turn DCA into Disneyland 2.0 and leave the current Disneyland Park version 1.0 with all the classic attractions and occassional new E-Tickets but not changing the gems. They could release the Disneyland 2.0 park with updates and redux's every single year for all I care. If it were up to me, Disneyland would be a museum with very very well taken care for attractions and occasional new "E-Tickets" without replacing the bread and butter.
                                But unfortunately it is not up to me it's up to MBA's and whole bunch of other suites crunching numbers and running spreadsheets. Thankfully we still have a really creative guy in a Hawaiian shirt to add some creative sense into the mix.


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                                Last edited by CAspace; 03-06-2008, 12:01 PM.

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                                • #36
                                  Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep &quot;it's a small world&quot; a classic.

                                  Originally posted by MasterGracey View Post
                                  That's not what I was saying, was it?

                                  I'm just wondering what, as a Disney fan and an active member of the online Disney community, do they get out of going t Disneyland if they don't acknowledge the artistic value of the park?

                                  Disneyland relies heavily on artistry and showmanship. Saying that attractions like "its a small world" aren't art is a strange statement, especially coming from a Disney fan. I can understand if you don't like the art, but to dismiss it entirely as nothing more than a boat ride is simply absurd.
                                  Trying to decide what is art is a philosophical discussion that could easily swamp this board. Enough books have been written about this subject to fill IASW building. The amount of hot air expelled on the subject is probably a leading cause of global warming. Suffice it to say that we can't answer that question here.

                                  The Disneyland universe is pretty small, and there is still room for disagreement on what is art and what is kitsch within the Disneyland Fan universe. While many may appreciate IASW it is quite possible that as many or more see IASW as nothing more than a bad 3-D cartoon. I am not a big fan of IASW, I am against the addition of Disney characters, not because it will harm a wonderful ride, but because the wanton addition of Disney characters to rides is a bad trend that seemingly will continue unabated until the park is unrecognizable.

                                  The recent addition of Pixar characters to the Subs is just one more step along the path. But as far as art goes IMHO IASW is barely art, yet I still like Disneyland.
                                  Originally posted by SummerInFL
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                                  • #37
                                    Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep &quot;it's a small world&quot; a classic.

                                    I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this, but the rainforest scene was already removed from it's original location in the attraction. At the World's Fair it was a small section of the Latin America room. When the attraction was moved to Disneyland, the rainforest was made cut from it's original location and just put into an empty space for lack of anything better to put there.

                                    The rainforest was out of place from the day it opened at Disneyland, if anything removing it and replacing it with a fully realized section improves the attraction thematically.

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                                    • #38
                                      Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep &quot;it's a small world&quot; a classic.

                                      I think those of us protesting the additions of Disney characters in IASW are asking for change. For a change from years of hack merchandising. A change from cheap, generic theming. A change from quick-buck Marketeering to real, creative Imagineering.

                                      Originally posted by KISSman View Post
                                      This effort is being conducted by a vocal minority and isn't going to hault anything. If they believed that most people would be bothered by it, they wouldn't do it.
                                      It's ironic that those words have been said by every business and government to every protest group since the dawn of civilization. "You're in the minority and your protest won't make a difference. And it's unnecessary -- if what we're doing was wrong, we wouldn't be doing it."
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                                      • #39
                                        Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep &quot;it's a small world&quot; a classic.

                                        dl1955pounds, have you experienced Spaceship Earth before and after these "major" changes? I rode the attraction in December and yesterday. The changes were minimal at best.

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                                        • #40
                                          Re: Save the Rainforest - Keep &quot;it's a small world&quot; a classic.

                                          Originally posted by Anders View Post
                                          The rainforest was out of place from the day it opened at Disneyland, if anything removing it and replacing it with a fully realized section improves the attraction thematically.
                                          /sarcasm
                                          No this can't be true. The theme will be ruined...the sky is turning black and falling. The only reason this will be bad is because it's different from what I've known all my life. I never want to park to change and reject the fact that Walt would ever change anything inside Disneyland. Everyone who thinks differently from this obviously doesn't like DL and shouldn't ever go again.

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