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  • #21
    Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

    Originally posted by toonaspie View Post
    Isnt Toy Story Land supposed to be a land for mostly smaller children anyway? Like A Bugs Land in DCA or maybe ToonTown?
    If that is the case, then the whole concept of the land is ill-advised. Disneyland is not about experiences for just children, it is about families. The whole idea of Disneyland was that Walt wanted a place where he could experience the attractions with his children instead of just sitting on a dirty park bench waiting for them to finish their rides.

    This watered down and totally CHEAP "Toy Story Land" makes me sick. It does NOT belong in a "Disneyland" park. Bugs Land is also a joke, but at least it was built in a park which was already so crappy that it didn't really matter. But Disneyland is another matter entirely. I'm sorry to see the already crippled Hong Kong park getting this joke of a "Land."

    On the positive side, the Mystic Point and Grizzly areas look fantastic and certainly worth a trip.

    I know that I'm not alone in this view and that a lot of those involved with HKDL are also quite upset that the wonderful lands that they originally pitched were rejected for an underwhelming and not very ambitious playground.

    When you compare Toy Story Land with a Pirates Land or a Glacier Bay, you realize just how CHEAP Disney went on this one.

    If you want to see HKDL succeed in the long run, don't jump to defend Disney every time they make a bone-headed decision. They've already got a powerful marketing department which glorifies everything they do (good or bad) - they don't deserve our help promoting their crap. These weren't plans approved by Imagineering, they were plans destroyed by politics and accountants. Let's be clear on that.
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    • #22
      Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

      Originally posted by Dustysage View Post
      These weren't plans approved by Imagineering, they were plans destroyed by politics and accountants. Let's be clear on that.
      We can agree on that one.

      I'm sure if we were in a blank cheque situation then the "third land" would probably have been quite something.

      But of course bean counters and politicians got in the way, that I can't excused, but I find myself defending Toy Story Land despite that.

      I can't defend its place in a Magic Kingdom, I'll admit it seems wrong on many levels, but it will serve purpose as a younger audience counterpoint to the older audience for Mystic Manor and Grizzly.

      Admittedly a variation on the Toon Town theme would have fit better, but that would have served the same purpose that Toon Town would have.
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      • #23
        Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

        ^I seriously doubt two thousand people will converge on RC Racer at once. Even on rope drop when it has its first public day of operations.

        And yes I appreciate that the land will be on its own in HKDL for a while, but at least its got something else backing it up in subsequent years unlike Paris which might get a Ratatouille attraction at some point.
        I was using the 2,000 Guest an hour line as an example, but the concerning thing is it only takes 600 Guest and you have an hour long wait. And I feel Ratatouille will come sooner than later.

        As I've said, I admit that the land is not the best, but its what they're getting, there's no use bemoaning it - especially on grounds of limited capacity which cannot be helped due to the nature of the attraction.
        I really don't think you understand me here, I couldn't care if TSL is built or not. I'll check it out when it opens in Paris next year and that will be about it. The limited capacity on the other hand is a completely different issue, and is something that both sides should of addressed before annoucing construction on the project. TSL from an operations point of view is already showing poor planning, and it could of been prevented but wasn't !

        They probably dont expect this land to draw much crowds unless theyre families with small children. That could explain the low capacity.
        Thats probarely the thinking behind it, but Hong Kong Disneyland does not need kiddie rides with limited capacity. If Disneyland in California decided to add TSL I could understand because the park has plenty of big capacity attractions, but currently Hong Kong Disneyland hasn't got many big attractions and will struggle once the crowds do turn up if the solution is to build rides like TSL.

        I can't defend its place in a Magic Kingdom, I'll admit it seems wrong on many levels, but it will serve purpose as a younger audience counterpoint to the older audience for Mystic Manor and Grizzly.
        But how much of the Hong Kong audience is made up of Families with young children. How many kids are going to be turned away from Grizzly and Manor for not reaching the hieght requirement, and be given TSL as an alternative with its long waits.
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        • #24
          Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

          Originally posted by Malin View Post
          Thats an unfair comparrison really, because if your using land capacity as a discussion point, that 2074 Guest per hour would still be poor when its matched against the park's other land's like Adventureland, Tomorrowland or Fantasyland. And the hourly capacity doesn't take into account unseen circumstances like ride shutdown's.
          i don't think that it is an unfair comparison. consider every new major addition in every Disney park. Lets take for example TOT. The addition of that ONE attraction added a couple thousand per hour capacity and cost 170 million to build. One attraction 1900 to 2000 guests per hour if lucky means that only a portion of the day guests will ride this ONE attraction.

          The addition of these three smaller attractions will have a greater capacity than any one major addition that has been added in any Disney park for the last decade or so and the cost to build it is less. So instead of having the 2000 guests on one attraction they are now spread thruought a small new land with more than one option to pick from.

          The same will be when they add mystic point and Grizzly gulch. two land with ONE attraction with the same capacity of toy story land. So just look at this small land as the equivalent capacity of one major attraction added to the park.

          If the lines for these small rides get long the addition of shops and eateries will help keep other guests occupied and at the end they just added something that increased capacity by at least a couple thousands to an already small park.

          Originally posted by Malin View Post
          Agreed not every Guest is going to ride every attraction at the park on the one day, but if you want to ride RC Racer you should be able to do so without having to queue for ever. Not every Guest picks to watch the Lion King but chances are if you turn up shortly before show time your likely to get into that performance, why because this show is set up to handle the strong demand. What happens if 2,000 people all decide to ride RC Racer at the same time, the answer a long wait.
          true not every guests wants to watch the lion king but for the same reason not every guest will want to ride RC racers.
          I am sure that if the land is popular that they might later on consider adding toy story Midway Mania there is obviously room for it. Even then all parks will always have small capacity attractions coupled with high capacity attractions in other areas.
          The bottom line is that the park will have an increase in overall capacity which will give guests something else to do during the day.



          And as a side note, i have noticed that many people keep blaming Disney for the addition but i know for a fact that WDI and Disney upper management pushed to have a much more emmersive land built besides toy story land. Due to the nature of the contracts done during the Eisner era between the government and Burbank They had their hands tied at how much money could be invested into the park without upsetting the balance of ownership. After several months of talks the Asian government was willing to loose control of some of their ownership so that Disney was able to invest a higher percentage of the investment total but still not enough to fully realize the three lands they had in mind. The blame this time around goes to the Asian government for not wanting to invest the necessary capital ratio to Disney intended investment.
          Last edited by Baloo; 12-28-2009, 08:42 PM.

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          • #25
            Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

            Originally posted by Malin View Post
            So you don't see a problem with Guest having to wait 1-2 hours for these attractions, where there time could be better spent spending money. If these rides are anything like the ones in A Bugs Land at DCA your ride time will be 1-2 minutes, how are you going to feel waiting in line for so long for it to be over in a matter of seconds. . . . How do you think Guest will react standing in line on a hot summers day for up to an hour's wait for a ride that you can find in any Six Flags style themepark. Do you think they are going to leave the park and recomend it to everyone else.
            There seems to be no problem with people doing this for Gadget's Go Coaster, which routinely has a 45 minute wait for a ride that lasts 45-60 seconds.
            Last edited by DragonRose; 12-30-2009, 04:58 PM. Reason: grammar
            Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.

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            • #26
              Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

              i don't think that it is an unfair comparison. consider every new major addition in every Disney park. Lets take for example TOT. The addition of that ONE attraction added a couple thousand per hour capacity and cost 170 million to build. One attraction 1900 to 2000 guests per hour if lucky means that only a portion of the day guests will ride this ONE attraction.

              The addition of these three smaller attractions will have a greater capacity than any one major addition that has been added in any Disney park for the last decade or so and the cost to build it is less. So instead of having the 2000 guests on one attraction they are now spread thruought a small new land with more than one option to pick from.

              The same will be when they add mystic point and Grizzly gulch. two land with ONE attraction with the same capacity of toy story land. So just look at this small land as the equivalent capacity of one major attraction added to the park.

              If the lines for these small rides get long the addition of shops and eateries will help keep other guests occupied and at the end they just added something that increased capacity by at least a couple thousands to an already small park.
              What your ignoring is the fact Toy Story Land is still a land made up of only three attractions, and if your putting it in the comparison that your choosing to than that still looks weak when compared to the combined capacity that Fantasyland, Adventureland or Tomorrowland have each hour. Also saying that Guest can spend the time spent outside of attractions enjoying shops and eateries is exactly the reason this park has failed from day one.

              Seeing that your going by land capacity to help suit your argument than, lets make a point with the Tower of Terror that you wrote about above. You point out TOT can only attract 2000 Guest an hour, but thats ignoring that each Tower of Terror is also located inside a land where the hourly capacity is far greater. Take a look at the DCA version located at DCA's Hollywood Backlot. Guest can enjoy the Tower of Terror, Monsters Inc, Muppet Vision 3D, Disney Animation, Playhouse Disney, and the Hyperion Theater. Not sure what the hourly capacity is for the land but I would imagine is much higher than the 2000 to 3000 for Toy Story Land.

              true not every guests wants to watch the lion king but for the same reason not every guest will want to ride RC racers.
              I am sure that if the land is popular that they might later on consider adding toy story Midway Mania there is obviously room for it. Even then all parks will always have small capacity attractions coupled with high capacity attractions in other areas.
              The bottom line is that the park will have an increase in overall capacity which will give guests something else to do during the day.
              And its a very good job not everyone will want to ride RC Racer because the wait times would be insane. But like another poster pointed out these Carnival rides often have the longest wait, now I'm not sure if thats down to there popularity or the fact the hourly capacity is so poor. But Management should be taking Crowd control into consideration from the start instead of a wait and see situation that is similar to when the park misjudge the crowds turning up for Golden Week where Guest were climbing the barriers to get into the park.

              And as a side note, i have noticed that many people keep blaming Disney for the addition but i know for a fact that WDI and Disney upper management pushed to have a much more emmersive land built besides toy story land. Due to the nature of the contracts done during the Eisner era between the government and Burbank They had their hands tied at how much money could be invested into the park without upsetting the balance of ownership. After several months of talks the Asian government was willing to loose control of some of their ownership so that Disney was able to invest a higher percentage of the investment total but still not enough to fully realize the three lands they had in mind. The blame this time around goes to the Asian government for not wanting to invest the necessary capital ratio to Disney intended investment.
              So was it also not Disney's thought the same land minus the shop and Restaurant is also going in at the Studios in Paris. Disney may be tied down to restrictions but its still going ahead with these cheap additions, clearly the name and legacy mean nothing here.

              There seems to be no problem with people doing this for Gadget's Go Coaster, which routinely has a 45 minute wait for a ride that lasts 45-60 seconds.
              But Disneyland does have quite a few more attractions than Hong Kong Disneyland to begin with !
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              • #27
                Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

                ORGOCH: Good points yer makin' here, Malin. Least ways ya knows yer Cauldron gals 'gits it' with what yer sayin'. Some folks seem ta like all them side dishes more than the main course. Guess that leaves more fer yerself an' me ta ride if'n we's ever dumb 'nuff ta visit Ping Pong Dizzyland befer they starts addin' any REAL rides ta the dang place!

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                • #28
                  Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

                  Originally posted by Malin View Post
                  Seeing that your going by land capacity to help suit your argument than, lets make a point with the Tower of Terror that you wrote about above. You point out TOT can only attract 2000 Guest an hour, but thats ignoring that each Tower of Terror is also located inside a land where the hourly capacity is far greater. Take a look at the DCA version located at DCA's Hollywood Backlot. Guest can enjoy the Tower of Terror, Monsters Inc, Muppet Vision 3D, Disney Animation, Playhouse Disney, and the Hyperion Theater. Not sure what the hourly capacity is for the land but I would imagine is much higher than the 2000 to 3000 for Toy Story Land.
                  Eh, I don't really consider ToT at DCA to be part of the "land" even though it's near Hollywood Studios.

                  I understand what you're saying, but when is the last time that Disney has added a full 3 lands to a park at all? (DCA is the exception)

                  There was a lot of back and forth for this project from both sides and Disney is heavily investing in a lot of areas right now. I don't have a problem with the rides themselves going in, I just hope the theming doesn't end up like a Bug's Land or DinoRama.
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                  • #29
                    Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

                    ORGOCH: Good points yer makin' here, Malin. Least ways ya knows yer Cauldron gals 'gits it' with what yer sayin'. Some folks seem ta like all them side dishes more than the main course. Guess that leaves more fer yerself an' me ta ride if'n we's ever dumb 'nuff ta visit Ping Pong Dizzyland befer they starts addin' any REAL rides ta the dang place!
                    Thanks for understanding Witches, people are really missing the point being made here, its not a thread to launch another attack on the park, as one of Hong Kong Disneyland's biggest supporters I wouldn't be doing it. This thread is to raise concerns about the mistakes being made, and that these Toy Story themed rides are not going to meet the demand of its Guest during a peak day where park capacity is at its full. I am already starting to feel for the poor Guest who will have to queue up to an hour to ride Slinky Dog which from some reports will last only 90 seconds in the horrid Hong Kong heat.


                    Eh, I don't really consider ToT at DCA to be part of the "land" even though it's near Hollywood Studios.
                    You may not consider its a part of Hollywood Backlot, but the park certainly does and its officially listed on park maps.
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                    • #30
                      Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

                      Originally posted by Malin View Post
                      Seeing that your going by land capacity to help suit your argument than, lets make a point with the Tower of Terror that you wrote about above. You point out TOT can only attract 2000 Guest an hour, but thats ignoring that each Tower of Terror is also located inside a land where the hourly capacity is far greater. Take a look at the DCA version located at DCA's Hollywood Backlot. Guest can enjoy the Tower of Terror, Monsters Inc, Muppet Vision 3D, Disney Animation, Playhouse Disney, and the Hyperion Theater. Not sure what the hourly capacity is for the land but I would imagine is much higher than the 2000 to 3000 for Toy Story Land.
                      You are not understanding the overall idea of capacity for the park.

                      Lets forget that Toy story land will be built and instead they build an area themed to Indiana Jones. Within this land they build the Indiana Jones attraction and several shops and an eatery.

                      That new land just cost a couple hundred million dollars to build and added one major attraction that has a capacity of 2000 guests per hour. If the park is opened 8 hours that means the new land added a capacity of 16000 per day.

                      Now lets go back to toy story land built on the same piece of property at 1/3 the cost with three minor attractions with a full capacity of 2074 guests per hour. park open for 8 hours totals 16592 per day.


                      Again same piece of land 1/3 the investment and similar overall capacity for the park.


                      Obviously if a different land had been built with one major attraction and a couple smaller ones then yes i would argue that overall the toy story land addition was the wrong way to go when it came to increasing park capacity. The reality is that even the other tow lands that will be built only have one main attraction that will increase the overall park capacity the same amount as toy story land.

                      It has nothing to do with comparing it to existing lands like adventureland or tomorrowland. It is about how much capacity the addition will help increase the parks overall capacity. Even the piece of property that toy story land is being built on would have allowed more than one significant high output attraction. The land that was previously proposed that was Glacier bay was basically the same attraction designs as what toy story will get but with a different theme. The one main attraction in that land was also going to be a 1/2 pike. Obviously it would have looked better than toys but thats another arguement

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                      • #31
                        Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

                        You are not understanding the overall idea of capacity for the park.
                        No I feel its you thats not understanding, you can spin the numbers all you want, but it does not change the fact that each new park attraction at TSL will have a very low hourly rate. This is going to result in longer waits preventing Guest from spending more money at the park, and leaving them feeling frustrated which will do nothing for the parks reputation.

                        Looking at the combined total number the land could pull in is failing to look at the more important issue here!
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                        • #32
                          Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

                          ORGOCH: Keep goin', Malin, ducklin'! I knows just what ya mean by what yer sayin' an even my dumb sister--Orwen--gits what yer sayin'. If'n she can git it there ain't no reason why ANYbody cain't git it!

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                          • #33
                            Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

                            Originally posted by Malin View Post
                            No I feel its you thats not understanding, you can spin the numbers all you want, but it does not change the fact that each new park attraction at TSL will have a very low hourly rate. This is going to result in longer waits preventing Guest from spending more money at the park, and leaving them feeling frustrated which will do nothing for the parks reputation.

                            Looking at the combined total number the land could pull in is failing to look at the more important issue here!
                            it does not matter how long the wait time will be, people will only wait for certain attraction a maximum amount of time. how do you explain attractions like Dumbo, astro orbitor, tea cups they are all low capcity attractions purposely built to fill in guest time.

                            OVERALL PARK CAPACITY is what matters here and if people see that the lines are longer than they wish to wait then the store next to that attraction gets foot traffic.
                            Disney is not stupid, they build three attractions low cost increase park capacity and fill in all the gaps with eateries and shops.

                            If guests spend more time in line then it keeps them in the park longer. Longer guests stay means that they will most likely be spending more money eating and buying things.

                            Again you are worried about this area because of low capacity why not worry about Mystic point then which is a much bigger land with ONE attraction yet will also have the same hourly capacity as Toy Story Land? People will still have to wait no matter what.
                            Last edited by Baloo; 01-28-2010, 08:19 PM.

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                            • #34
                              Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

                              ^Well said.

                              I have a feeling that the argument still goes back to this being a Toy Story specific land with, admittedly, off the shelf attractions albeit it with a Disney theme.

                              I'm sure that, regardless of location in the World, the average guest and more importantly their kids will probably enjoy the attractions. Long lines or not.
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                              "We're not trying to entertain the critics ... I'll take my chances with the public." -
                              Walt Disney

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                              • #35
                                Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

                                it does not matter how long the wait time will be, people will only wait for certain attraction a maximum amount of time. how do you explain attractions like Dumbo, astro orbitor, tea cups they are all low capcity attractions purposely built to fill in guest time.
                                Dumbo and other attractions of this type work because its located in lands like Fantasyland and Tomorrowland where the Guest has a greater choice of options, I have stated this before. TSL has no other options than the three listed attractions all which will move slow. You say Guest will wait only a maxium amount of time, but for a park criticised for having nothing to do, these attractions are very much needed to fill in the day. If the rides are to long for the Guest to wait to ride what are these people expected to do shop.

                                OVERALL PARK CAPACITY is what matters here and if people see that the lines are longer than they wish to wait then the store next to that attraction gets foot traffic.
                                Disney is not stupid, they build three attractions low cost increase park capacity and fill in all the gaps with eateries and shops.
                                Do you really not understand why this park is at a loss and underperforming, people don't want to shop or eat there want things to do and be kept occupied for the entire day. Guest by the way will not view it the way you seem to and will see the long lines and likely leave the park. This is one of the biggest problems with HKDL, very few Guest spend the full day here, so the idea is to give them more things to do, and shopping is not one of them. If you spend a day at the park having faced long lines, your not really going to be in the mood to buy the family gifts.

                                If guests spend more time in line then it keeps them in the park longer. Longer guests stay means that they will most likely be spending more money eating and buying things.
                                Oh so the answer to keeping them in the parks for longer isn't to give them more attractions and things to do, but to keep them waiting in line all day. Good luck selling them T Shirts

                                Again you are worried about this area because of low capacity why not worry about Mystic point then which is a much bigger land with ONE attraction yet will also have the same hourly capacity as Toy Story Land? People will still have to wait no matter what.
                                I think you raise an interesting point that doesn't help your argument either. It will take three TSL attractions to match Mystic Point's one hour capacity. The chances are your going to have to wait longer to ride RC Racer than Mystic Point.

                                I have a feeling that the argument still goes back to this being a Toy Story specific land with, admittedly, off the shelf attractions albeit it with a Disney theme.
                                If you feel that to be the case you clearly do not understand the conversation. Unlike some, I don't have any ill feelings towards TSL and I'm the kind of guy who see's vaule in Bugs Land. Its not the concept at fault, but the poor management decisions being made.
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                                • #36
                                  Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

                                  Originally posted by Malin View Post
                                  If you feel that to be the case you clearly do not understand the conversation. Unlike some, I don't have any ill feelings towards TSL and I'm the kind of guy who see's vaule in Bugs Land. Its not the concept at fault, but the poor management decisions being made.
                                  Well I certainly wasn't expecting you to say that. It appeared to me that the problem was the "off the shelf" and Pixarification (plus "low capacity") nature of the land.

                                  I can see your main argument a little clearer now if that is the case. I still may not agree, mind.

                                  I still see as the land and its three attractions as a necessity born out of questionable decisions that cut back the parks original roster, and in a case of history repeating itself, we find ourselves with another round of those questionable decisions that forces them to pick attractions that don't have great per hour figures.

                                  However, if you take the new expansion as a whole, then these low figures are somewhat offset by the presumably higher per hour of Girzzly and the Manor.

                                  I try to look on the bright side, at least they're getting something new. The park can't carry on without enticing people to return... I know Toy Storyland isn't going to accomplish that on its own, but it will certain do its part to help.
                                  sigpic

                                  "We're not trying to entertain the critics ... I'll take my chances with the public." -
                                  Walt Disney

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                                  • #37
                                    Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

                                    One thing that I think needs to be addressed is the fact that Asian Disney fans (or at least those of Hong Kong) have significantly different preferences than others around the world. This is clear in the inclusion of Stitch in most of the major campaigns of HKDL and has an elevated status as one of the 'core' Disney characters, featured in pins, plastic bags etc. alongside Mickey and Minnie. He is phenomenally (and, in the eyes of many of my Western friends, puzzlingly) popular!

                                    The Toy Story characters have a similar status. Although this has yet been honed in on by official Disney merchandise sold within the park, it is clear if you go to local shops in Hong Kong that stock, say, imported Disney merchandise from Japan that Buzz Lightyear and the LGM have an almost cult following.

                                    Toy Story Land will have much more of a pull on the local population than most seem to believe. In fact, I'd wager that the average local visitor will probably find Toy Story Land at least as much of a 'big thing', if not even bigger, than Mystery Manor. They want to see their favorite Disney character stamped on a ride, even if it's not so very unique. That's why Dumbo still commands an overly long queue (where as the spaceship version in Tomorrowland is much less popular) and the Winnie the Pooh dark ride runs out of fast passes and has people waiting at least half an hour for it (even when the park is relatively empty).

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                                    • #38
                                      Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

                                      I don't think it's a huge problem. HKDL doesn't get the biggest crowds anyway, does it? There'll be plenty of other things to check out if the lines are too large.
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                                      • #39
                                        Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

                                        Bug's Land: The Sequel = Toy Story Land

                                        I don't get it... I think they should have patterned TSL after the Mermaid Lagoon area in Tokyo Disney Sea. Make it into Andy's room or something. The possibilities for Toy Story related attractions seem endless to me and I don't understand why they would want to limit themselves to such a tiny area of the park. The rides look lame. They should just not build TSL and wait to develop that area until they come up with a better concept.

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                                        • #40
                                          Re: Toy Story Land low Capacity !

                                          Toy Story Land will have much more of a pull on the local population than most seem to believe. In fact, I'd wager that the average local visitor will probably find Toy Story Land at least as much of a 'big thing', if not even bigger, than Mystery Manor. They want to see their favorite Disney character stamped on a ride, even if it's not so very unique. That's why Dumbo still commands an overly long queue (where as the spaceship version in Tomorrowland is much less popular) and the Winnie the Pooh dark ride runs out of fast passes and has people waiting at least half an hour for it (even when the park is relatively empty).
                                          Keeping this in mind, if the Toy Story Characters as popular as baffle states, this will further illustrate my point why I feel its stupid to be building attractions that each have a small capacity rate. Although I do question how popular the Toy Story Characters are to the local audience, as Buzz Lightyear is already featured in the park.

                                          I don't think it's a huge problem. HKDL doesn't get the biggest crowds anyway, does it? There'll be plenty of other things to check out if the lines are too large.
                                          So you don't think HKDL isn't hoping for a big attendance boost with this expansion?
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