[Chat] What do you all make of this?

[Spectacular]

http://qz.com/768740/chinas-richest-...on-disneyland/

Personally I think this guy will fail. He is essentially trying to bring Six Flag's business model to China. Also his company is inexperienced, young, and has virtually no brand recognition or intellectual property. This guy thinks he can somehow defeat Disney by building a bunch of Chinese California Adventure 1.0's all across China. (His parks are cultural parks that focus on Chinese culture).

[baroquehoedown]

From what I understand, which is admittedly limited, there's a lot more amusement/theme park competition in general in China and quite a few of them are high quality. I thought that was part of the reason people have complained about Disney building in Shanghai in the first place. I think that it will depend on if he does it well since he has to compete not only with Disney, but with a ton of other parks. The Wanda park that has been built looks pretty impressive. Only time will tell I guess.

[Donald1980]

http://qz.com/768740/chinas-richest-...on-disneyland/

Personally I think this guy will fail. He is essentially trying to bring Six Flag's business model to China. Also his company is inexperienced, young, and has virtually no brand recognition or intellectual property. This guy thinks he can somehow defeat Disney by building a bunch of Chinese California Adventure 1.0's all across China. (His parks are cultural parks that focus on Chinese culture).

I think this thread is in the wrong place, because he hasn't declared war on Disneyland, Anaheim but in Shanghai.

[BogLurch]

I can make a hat... or a brooch... or a pterodactyl...

Seriously, though - different markets with different priorities and fundamentals. It is not outside reality that the developer will succeed beyond his wildest dreams without even scratching Disney's draw. Their domestic market has that much potential.

[Spectacular]

From what I understand, which is admittedly limited, there's a lot more amusement/theme park competition in general in China and quite a few of them are high quality. I thought that was part of the reason people have complained about Disney building in Shanghai in the first place. I think that it will depend on if he does it well since he has to compete not only with Disney, but with a ton of other parks. The Wanda park that has been built looks pretty impressive. Only time will tell I guess.

No actually, there is a general lack of "higher quality" theme parks. The Wanda parks are small and are located in tier 3 cities. One of them has already closed down- this Wang Jianlin guy famously expected 80,000 people a day- the facility only gets 200. And this is only 10 months after opening.

[Spectacular]

I think this thread is in the wrong place, because he hasn't declared war on Disneyland, Anaheim but in Shanghai.

no, he has global ambitions. He is opening a park to directly compete with Disneyland Paris. He has global ambitions. He wants to become the world's largest tourism company by 2020. Also, c'mon- I want this to be discussed, not be sent to some unpopular thread where my post will die. C'mon. This thread has the most people, I want discussion.

[Donald1980]

no, he has global ambitions. He is opening a park to directly compete with Disneyland Paris. He has global ambitions. He wants to become the world's largest tourism company by 2020. Also, c'mon- I want this to be discussed, not be sent to some unpopular thread where my post will die. C'mon. This thread has the most people, I want discussion.

But the article is all about China and how he wants Shanghai to be unprofitable within two decades.

[Spectacular]

But the article is all about China and how he wants Shanghai to be unprofitable within two decades.

I'm talking outside the article. He has clearly stated in the past that he seeks to rival Disney on a global scale.

[baroquehoedown]

No actually, there is a general lack of "higher quality" theme parks. The Wanda parks are small and are located in tier 3 cities. One of them has already closed down- this Wang Jianlin guy famously expected 80,000 people a day- the facility only gets 200. And this is only 10 months after opening.

I wasn't really referring to the Wanda parks so much in those high quality numbers since all I have seen are pictures and they're fairly new, but there are some very successful theme parks. I was actually thinking about Fantawild and Happy Valley, which always seem to show up on lists of top theme parks in the world. If Wanda could create parks of that quality, they might do okay for themselves. I'm not saying they'll put Disney out of business, but they could provide some serious competition if they can refine their style in the next few years.

I do agree that this should be in the Shanghai forum though. For the near future at least, Wanda won't be going anywhere outside of China.

[Mr Wiggins]

Seriously, though - different markets with different priorities and fundamentals. It is not outside reality that the developer will succeed beyond his wildest dreams without even scratching Disney's draw. Their domestic market has that much potential.

Yep. Disney fans' immediate reaction is to blow off Jianlin, but in the big world outside the U.S. he has more advantages than one might think. Consider -

- Home boy on home soil.
- The publicity image of the spirited, passionate individual entrepreneur taking on the cold, pushy U.S. corporation.
- It's his company and he's in it for the long haul, vs. Disney's revolving door parade of corporate managers.
- His overhead is enormously less than the cost of running Disney's bloated bureaucracy.
- He can make decisions and build parks much faster than Disney.
- He can undercut Disney's prices any time he wants, while Disney is addicted to pleasing Wall Street by continually raising prices.
- He can put anything he wants in his parks, while Disney is stuck with their prime directive of pushing their brands.
- His potential market is vast: the billions of people on the planet who aren't Disney fans, and who can't hop a jet and fly to a Disney park.
- Outside of Disney fans, how many international customers really see a great difference in the experience of visiting a Jianlin park vs. a Disney park?

I agree with BogLurch -- Jianlin could do extremely well by developing a worldwide market of non-Disney customers, particularly in areas that Disney doesn't serve.

[BigThunder1]

I don't have much to say about this but I think his business model seams a little wang-ky. You can built 500 different parks all around Disneyland Shanghai and you wouldn't have the quality of story telling and the attention to detail Disney has. I think he might go broke trying to slay the dragon.

[Mr Wiggins]

I don't have much to say about this but I think his business model seams a little wang-ky. You can built 500 different parks all around Disneyland Shanghai and you wouldn't have the quality of story telling and the attention to detail Disney has. I think he might go broke trying to slay the dragon.

That's assuming Jianlin builds his parks all around Disneyland Shanghai, instead of in different parts of the world. It also assumes that "quality of story telling and attention to detail" automatically equals financial success for a theme park. As we've seen in the numbers for Hong Kong Disneyland, the longtime struggles of Disneyland Paris, and now Disneyland Shanghai, it doesn't necessarily equate.

[Spectacular]

Yep. Disney fans' immediate reaction is to blow off Jianlin, but in the big world outside the U.S. he has more advantages than one might think. Consider -

- Home boy on home soil.
- The publicity image of the spirited, passionate individual entrepreneur taking on the cold, pushy U.S. corporation.
- It's his company and he's in it for the long haul, vs. Disney's revolving door parade of corporate managers.
- His overhead is enormously less than the cost of running Disney's bloated bureaucracy.
- He can make decisions and build parks much faster than Disney.
- He can undercut Disney's prices any time he wants, while Disney is addicted to pleasing Wall Street by continually raising prices.
- He can put anything he wants in his parks, while Disney is stuck with their prime directive of pushing their brands.
- His potential market is vast: the billions of people on the planet who aren't Disney fans, and who can't hop a jet and fly to a Disney park.
- Outside of Disney fans, how many international customers really see a great difference in the experience of visiting a Jianlin park vs. a Disney park?

I agree with BogLurch -- Jianlin could do extremely well by developing a worldwide market of non-Disney customers, particularly in areas that Disney doesn't serve.

No, think about it: This guy is building theme parks in relatively unknown, 3rd tier cities. Wanda has no brand recognition. I mean for god sake's it was a property developer less than 5 years ago. It has no intellectual property or cultural significance to build off of. Disney isn't stupid to blanket China with 100's of parks. Its single, high quality resort in China has the potential to draw millions of higher paying, upper middle class tourists, and at the same time strengthen it's brand recognition. If I used your reasoning, you are essentially saying that Six Flags undercuts Disney's pricing. The thing is, Six Flags attracts essentially poorer, more localized crowds. Brands are the future and are the key to success for any theme park- it's what Disney's entire business model is built off of, so of course they'll push it. The Six Flags model DOES NOT WORK. "Build parks faster than Disney... undercut Disney's prices"--> That is simply a disproven business model. There is a reason Disney charges high money for admission, and spends bigs on its park. Undercutting theme park investment and ticket prices is just a model that the likes of Disney and Universal laugh at. You spend big, use big characters, and charge big. Wanda is spending big, using no characters, and is charing low while at the same time building their parks in the middle of nowhere. And let's just pretend that Wanda did somehow get enough intellectual property to be well-known and recognized for... The fact that they would have 100's of parks in China would dilute attendance figures. It would be like saying, hey howabout we go to our local Disneyland down the street... vs. howabout we go to the one and only DISNEYLAND. See the difference?

[Mr Wiggins]

^ Meaning no disrespect, your arguments are based on circular reasoning and logical fallacies.

Example: Jianlin's model hasn't been previously proved successful, therefore it must fail. (Fact: he hasn't yet proven his model is a success or a failure.)

Example: Jianlin's model is the same as the Six Flags model (unproven), and the Six Flags model does not work overseas (unproven), therefore Jianlin's model will not work overseas (unproven).

Arguing that Disney's current model for overseas theme parks will work for all future overseas theme parks is cherry-picking, made even more unsupportable by the fact that the sample size (i.e. the number of overseas Disney parks from which you're extrapolating) is much too small, and the variables of location, culture and local politics for potential future theme parks too great, to draw any logical conclusions.

Bottom line, you're arguing that Disney's model is the only route to success, therefore Jianlin's model must fail. (Fact: absence of the positive is not proof of the negative.)

Again, I mean no disrespect.

[Spectacular]

^ Meaning no disrespect, your arguments are based on circular reasoning and logical fallacies.

Example: Jianlin's model hasn't been previously proved successful, therefore it must fail. (Fact: he hasn't yet proven his model is a success or a failure.)

Example: Jianlin's model is the same as the Six Flags model (unproven), and the Six Flags model does not work overseas (unproven), therefore Jianlin's model will not work overseas (unproven).

Arguing that Disney's current model for overseas theme parks will work for all future overseas theme parks is cherry-picking, made even more unsupportable by the fact that the sample size (i.e. the number of overseas Disney parks from which you're extrapolating) is much too small, and the variables of location, culture and local politics for potential future theme parks too great, to draw any logical conclusions.

Bottom line, you're arguing that Disney's model is the only route to success, therefore Jianlin's model must fail. (Fact: absence of the positive is not proof of the negative.)

Again, I mean no disrespect.

"Jianlin's model is the same as the Six Flags model (unproven)" what do I need to cite my sources, do you need a bibliography? From the information i have read online, I am making my OWN PERSONAL opinion that his model is similar to Six Flag's. Do I need to quote an article and analyze it to satisfy you?

"Jianlin's model hasn't been previously proved successful, therefore it must fail (fact he hasn't yet proven his model is a success or a failure.)" He's opened several entertainment complexes throughout China- and as I have just said, several of them have been under performing. He is a proven failure - and I'm making the conclusion that he will fail in the future.

"Arguing that Disney's current model for overseas theme parks will work for all future overseas theme parks is cherry-picking" - what? I never mentioned future international theme parks. I talked specifically about China- and I'm saying that Disney's Shanghai park and model in China will be a success. Wang Jianlin does not think so.

"you're arguing that Disney's model is the only route to success, therefore Jianlin's model must fail" - no, there are many ways to succeed, but Wang Jianlin is basing his model off Six Flags, which is an unsuccesful model (see below).

Six Flags MODEL Is proven unsuccesful. Attendance figures, revenue, and profit have remained flat for the company for almost a decade. Wanda's theme park model looks eerily similar to six flags. It's blanketing its domestic market with hundreds of parks that lack any significant intellectual property. Look man, If I wanted to write a 90 page thesis on this- of course I'd sharpen my argument and make my claims more comprehensive, but this is a web forum. Wang Jianlin lacks intellectual property and experience. I'm making the claim that Wang Jianlin business model is similar to Six Flags- and as I just said, Six Flags is not successful.

Wang Jianlin will prove a formidable adversary if he harnesses intellectual property- ie. use Legendary Pictures and continue acquiring hollywood companies.

Let me respond to your arguments:

"He can make decisions and build parks much faster than Disney" Disney isn't stupid to saturate itself to death. Disney parks are singular, limited, and unique experiences. Remember what happened when Disney made rushed, cheap, and fastly built theme parks- we got DCA 1.0 and a whole lot of other crap.

" He can undercut Disney's prices any time he wants" Disney cares more about guest spending than ticket price. It would rather target a handful of upper middle class families than legions of working class Chinese. Also, you can't really apply this argument to theme parks. Sure it works for consumer electronics and other physical goods- but Chinese tourists are willing to spend money on experiences. People don't take price as the sole factor in choosing a hotel to stay at- people will look at the amenities and overall experience the hotel offers.

"- He can put anything he wants in his parks, while Disney is stuck with their prime directive of pushing their brands" what? He has nothing to put in his parks- he has no brands? What? By anything- do you mean knock-offs?

" His potential market is vast: the billions of people on the planet who aren't Disney fans, and who can't hop a jet and fly to a Disney park"- First of all "Millions" not "billions" The vast majority of China's 300 million middle class citizens live in the coastal region--> Shanghai Disneyland is a 3 hour train ride for most of this market. Wang Jillian is building his parks in the vast, yet poorer interior.

" Outside of Disney fans, how many international customers really see a great difference in the experience of visiting a Jianlin park vs. a Disney park" That's why the park was built in the first place- to help formulate the Disney brand to the chinese people. And yet again, Disneyland is marketing itself as a singular, unique experience- rather than your off the shelf, local entertainment complex. Don't underestimate Disney's PR and Marketing capabilities even in countries like China.

"His overhead is enormously less than the cost of running Disney's bloated bureaucracy" Hardly- all though Disney's domestic Parks have the largest operating costs of all Disney resorts- they are also the most profitable theme parks in the world. Disneyland earned a net 1 or 2 billion USD. How? Hotels, merchandise, food. Theme parks regardless are expensive endeavors.

" It's his company and he's in it for the long haul, vs. Disney's revolving door parade of corporate managers" Iger has grown the company signficantly as did Eisner. Disney is a very dynamic company- some consider it a tech company. Bob Iger has put emphasis on technology and has greatly improved the corporate environment (and optimism) of the company.

"The publicity image of the spirited, passionate individual entrepreneur taking on the cold, pushy U.S. corporation" publicity for investors sure, but the everyday theme park guest is not going to visit his park for such a reason. I don't go buy an iphone because I think Steve Jobs is great, I think his products are great and therefore he is great.

" Home boy on home soil" This I have to agree with you. The Chinese are protectionist and I wouldn't be surprised if Wang got some unfair advantages.

"

[Marko50]

I can make a hat... or a brooch... or a pterodactyl...

Spending way too much time imagining you folding your computer...or phone...or tablet...

[Mr Wiggins]

^^ Sorry, Spectacular. With no disrespect, the basis of your argument is to extrapolate a small sampling of existing American business models in a comparison against Jianlin's yet-to-be-built overseas parks, and claiming that therefore Jianlin will fail. The argument is illogical: regardless of what Six Flags or Disney does, Jianlin isn't bound by their models. Nobody knows what he's going to do, only what his stated goal is.