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  • #21
    Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

    I think this is good for Universal-Busch Gardens-SeaWorld vacation packages.

    I would enjoy a Tampa side trip on a WDW getaway. I enjoyed the beaches in Clearwater.

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    • #22
      Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

      Originally posted by kcnole View Post
      While this may be beneficial for Disney, this is going to be a major problem for Floridian taxpayers. The fact is that there's not going to be enough riders to pay for this thing once Federal money runs out. Of all the things we could have used 1 billion dollars for, a train that nobody wants to ride isn't one of them.
      I'm still wondering why everyone thinks no one is going to ride it, I've heard nothing but positive feedback from anyone I've spoken to, give or take a few negatives.

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      • #23
        Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

        Keep the faith, Summer, you're right.

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        • #24
          Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

          Originally posted by SummerInFL View Post
          I'm still wondering why everyone thinks no one is going to ride it, I've heard nothing but positive feedback from anyone I've spoken to, give or take a few negatives.
          Have those said people included in that point how much they are willing to pay to ride the train?

          I don't see the value of high speed rail when you don't have the local transit to feed the passengers into the local outlets.

          Train works as one piece of a larger mass transit plan. You can't just build the fancy part without the local coverage part.

          This kind of reminds me of the Simpson's episode...
          Check out my blog - Coreplex: Rambling from inside the Grid


          Am I evil? yes, I am
          Am I evil? I am man, yes, I am

          Originally posted by sleepyjeff
          Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

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          • #25
            Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

            I'm still wondering why everyone thinks no one is going to ride it, I've heard nothing but positive feedback from anyone I've spoken to, give or take a few negatives.
            Trains only work in America in densely populated areas. While there may be people willing to ride it, there's not enough in Central FL who are willing to pay the price it will take to ride it to even break even. If you bring the price down enough to ride it then it'll have to be government subsidized. This isn't the only train in FL, and none of them make money. They all require some level of government propping to stay open. In Florida's current state of economy, the last thing I want is something else the government will have to spend on.

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            • #26
              Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

              Eventually, the HSR will connect Tampa with Boston. Then you'll see more East Coasters heading down to the sunshine state by rail. When it's not a 4 day trip.

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              • #27
                Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                Originally posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
                Eventually, the HSR will connect Tampa with Boston. Then you'll see more East Coasters heading down to the sunshine state by rail. When it's not a 4 day trip.
                What do you think about the Midwest getting linked within the next 15 years? We're getting the "high speed" link between St. Louis and Chicago. However, our speed of 110mph is relatively pitiful compared to other train systems around the world.

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                • #28
                  Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                  Originally posted by MarkTwain View Post
                  I predict this will be popular, not among tourists arriving from the airport, but people going from park to park. For example, someone staying on Disney property, but wanting to spend a day at Universal. I'm sure Disney knows this, which is why I'm surprised they volunteered their land for this (I'm glad, just surprised). Isn't this a change of mind since a few years ago?
                  High Speed Rail is not commuter rail. People keep talking about how these routes shoulder be littered with stops around Florida for the tourists. That will not work. Paying $25 per person in a family of four to get to Universal for a day is going to add $100 in expenses for a family of four.

                  Originally posted by SummerInFL View Post
                  I'm still wondering why everyone thinks no one is going to ride it, I've heard nothing but positive feedback from anyone I've spoken to, give or take a few negatives.
                  This is not a commuter system. People who commute from Tampa to Orlando will only be convenienced if one of the few stations are within walking distance or do have another, cheap means of getting to their destination. I cannot imagining a round trip costing more then $50/car.

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                  • #29
                    Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                    Originally posted by stitchrulz View Post
                    What do you think about the Midwest getting linked within the next 15 years? We're getting the "high speed" link between St. Louis and Chicago. However, our speed of 110mph is relatively pitiful compared to other train systems around the world.
                    That will depend on who is elected President in 2012, 2016, 2020 and 2024.

                    Obama re elected, followed by one or two progressive administrations, and a few Transportation bills later and West, East and mid America could be connected coast to coast.

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                    • #30
                      Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                      Originally posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
                      That will depend on who is elected President in 2012, 2016, 2020 and 2024.

                      Obama re elected, followed by one or two progressive administrations, and a few Transportation bills later and West, East and mid America could be connected coast to coast.
                      I hope that doesn't have to happen.
                      (please don't hurt me)

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                      • #31
                        Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                        Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
                        Serving MCO and Disney doesn't target commuters. It targets tourists. The line needs to serve the residential areas as well as the commercial areas to be commuter oriented.
                        Right, but look how badly our budget is and our state government's financial stability tanks the moment we lose tourism. So it kinda has to target tourism.

                        A high speed rail isn't meant to serve commuters, and I don't think anyone said it would.

                        I'm all for public transportation, but I am for city to city high speed rails, give the airlines some competition (teach them to charge $25 per bag)

                        But as much as we might want to think otherwise, a commuter rail in Orlando would fail because we have no "one stop hub" for everyone to get to work. You can't draw one line in Orlando and hit even a fraction of everything a commuter rail would need. And yes, one line is all...because the only thing that would ever get built would be one line as a "test"...and it wouldn't pass that "test". As much as they plan to "phase it in" afterwards like they have discussed.

                        I've used the commuter rail in Boston, it is great. But a line worked in Boston where it was easier to take the train that sit for 2 hours on the bridge. But I-4 never nears the traffic Boston would get...and even if it did "Orlando" is such a massive sprawl there wouldn't be a great hub that still wouldn't require a car (like North Station under the Fleet Center).

                        Originally posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
                        That will depend on who is elected President in 2012, 2016, 2020 and 2024.

                        Obama re elected, followed by one or two progressive administrations, and a few Transportation bills later and West, East and mid America could be connected coast to coast.
                        One step at a time! As much as I am for expanding our national transportation infrastructure, we've heard this before. And to have to rely on that many administrations agreeing on one issue over that span of time...

                        But all in all, this train can help. The one in Shanghai goes from the airport, to half way to downtown. You still need a taxi to get the rest of the way. But 20 min in a taxi and 8 min on a train skipping over the worst of the traffic beats 2 hours in traffic. But still...Orlando to Tampa won't be the worst link ever made.

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                        • #32
                          Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                          Originally posted by tloolgb View Post
                          I've used the commuter rail in Boston, it is great. But a line worked in Boston where it was easier to take the train that sit for 2 hours on the bridge. But I-4 never nears the traffic Boston would get...and even if it did "Orlando" is such a massive sprawl there wouldn't be a great hub that still wouldn't require a car (like North Station under the Fleet Center).

                          I find it amusing when Floridians complain about how horrific the traffic is in and around Orlando. I'm not really sure Centrral Florida needs a commuter rail type system in place.

                          Side note it hasn't been the Fleet Center since 2005. It was renamed TD Banknorth Garden, then as of last year it is now simply called the TD Garden.
                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwwdFhJWDK0

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                          • #33
                            Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                            Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
                            Have those said people included in that point how much they are willing to pay to ride the train?

                            I don't see the value of high speed rail when you don't have the local transit to feed the passengers into the local outlets.

                            Train works as one piece of a larger mass transit plan. You can't just build the fancy part without the local coverage part.

                            This kind of reminds me of the Simpson's episode...
                            Originally posted by lazyboy97O View Post
                            High Speed Rail is not commuter rail. People keep talking about how these routes shoulder be littered with stops around Florida for the tourists. That will not work. Paying $25 per person in a family of four to get to Universal for a day is going to add $100 in expenses for a family of four.


                            This is not a commuter system. People who commute from Tampa to Orlando will only be convenienced if one of the few stations are within walking distance or do have another, cheap means of getting to their destination. I cannot imagining a round trip costing more then $50/car.
                            Do you think that the tourists would be sufficient enough to cover the cost of running the trains? If so, wouldn't there be down times where the rail wouldn't be utilized? Commuter aside, I think the tourists would make up the difference in cost if the locals aren't willing to jump on board no?

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                            • #34
                              Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                              Originally posted by Disney Magic View Post
                              I find it amusing when Floridians complain about how horrific the traffic is in and around Orlando. I'm not really sure Centrral Florida needs a commuter rail type system in place.
                              It's bad. Really. Bad. I've been on the 405 in LA during rush hour... while Orlando isn't as bad as that, it's pretty dang close. Tampa isn't far behind. ZOMG I hate Tampa traffic. I am so glad I moved from there to Clearwater. We got traffic issues here too (and now we have a bunch of construction on 19 that's messing up the end of my street, but I digress), but it's tame compared to the mess in Tampa. Plus the bulk of Florida drivers are the WORST drivers I have ever seen (how the blazes did these people manage to get their license?).

                              That being said, I'm looking forward to this rail thing along I-4.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                                What people fail to realize is that people love their cars. Tourists wouldn't utilize this system nearly as much as you think they would, at least not enough to offset the tremendous cost of running a rail line.

                                If you find situations where rail lines are profitable in the US and don't require government subsidization to work then I'd like to see them. Maybe NY and Chicago's system, but those are densely populated areas, Orlando is not a densely populated area, and its far too spread out to work in a profitable way.

                                As for Orlando's traffic, it's annoying, but its far from anything like what places like NY have to deal with. Its nowhere near bad enough that the majority of people would be willing to abandon their cars and jump on a train. Heck, its not as bad as Atlanta who does have a train system, the majority of people who take Marta aren't doing so because they don't want to ride a car, they're doing it because its there only real way to get around outside of a few special situations such as heading to sporting events where parking is limited.

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                                • #36
                                  Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                                  Originally posted by SummerInFL View Post
                                  Do you think that the tourists would be sufficient enough to cover the cost of running the trains? If so, wouldn't there be down times where the rail wouldn't be utilized? Commuter aside, I think the tourists would make up the difference in cost if the locals aren't willing to jump on board no?

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                                    Originally posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
                                    Eventually, the HSR will connect Tampa with Boston. Then you'll see more East Coasters heading down to the sunshine state by rail. When it's not a 4 day trip.
                                    It's only about a 24-26 hour trip now.

                                    High Speed Rail is not commuter rail. People keep talking about how these routes shoulder be littered with stops around Florida for the tourists. That will not work
                                    Well said. If you want a lit of relatively close stops, like the airport, I-Drive, the Convention Center, and WDW what you really want is a modern light rail system. High-speed rail is for intercity applications; It's less practical for something like the airport to Disney, it costs a lot more in construction and operating costs, and at best might save 3-5 minutes travel over the light rail option.

                                    Train works as one piece of a larger mass transit plan. You can't just build the fancy part without the local coverage part.
                                    People, even some who ought to know better, tend to forget that across the nation in various "high-speed" projects. Part of the problem, of course, is that the only money made available is solely for the "fancy" part, with no funding for less glamorous (but necessary) connecting services.

                                    If you find situations where rail lines are profitable in the US and don't require government subsidization to work then I'd like to see them.
                                    No passenger railway in the world operates without a subsidy. Neither will the central Florida proposal, but keep in mind that the purpose here isn't to make money but rather to provide a transportation service. Highways and airlines also receive (sometimes hidden) government subsidies.

                                    Trains only work in America in densely populated areas.
                                    In rural areas you still need connecting (long-distance) train services operating between those "densely populated areas".

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                                    • #38
                                      Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                                      Originally posted by SummerInFL View Post
                                      Do you think that the tourists would be sufficient enough to cover the cost of running the trains? If so, wouldn't there be down times where the rail wouldn't be utilized? Commuter aside, I think the tourists would make up the difference in cost if the locals aren't willing to jump on board no?
                                      What you wrote here pretty much sums up people's idea for the DC Metro... won't the tourists and commuters offset each other and give us the sum total we need?

                                      Even here in DC where the Metro system does serve both locals and tourists.. and coverage is quite decent for the city portions... its still mostly used only when/where cars aren't practical.

                                      It's the same reason the NY system works so well... they've priced car alternatives out of consideration.

                                      FL doesn't have the avoidance of using cars due to costs... nor the density.. nor the feeder networks... nor the planned coverage. Without those points, its bound to be a huge money sink that will simply deter from investing in other projects.

                                      Example... where I live there is a private toll road that charges $5 to get on. The area needs more public road capacity in the same corridor that the toll road exists in. But the government won't build the new roads because there is already the Toll Road there... so sure, the capacity is there, if you are able to pay $10 a day in tolls.
                                      Check out my blog - Coreplex: Rambling from inside the Grid


                                      Am I evil? yes, I am
                                      Am I evil? I am man, yes, I am

                                      Originally posted by sleepyjeff
                                      Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                                        FDOT’s high-speed rail homepage, floridahighspeedrail.org, has a map of projected corridors. Phase 1 will connect Tampa and Orlando, running along the median of I-4. There are two potential paths for phase 2, which would run from Orlando to Miami — one along the Florida Turnpike, another along I-95.
                                        High-speed rail plan moving slowly toward Panhandle | panama, city, florida - News - The News Herald

                                        See map here:
                                        KEN MAINES | Florida Freedom Newspapers: News Photo : The News Herald

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                                        • #40
                                          Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                                          Its this subsidization by the FL tax payers that has me up in arms over this. If the thing can operate and even just break even with its business plan then I'd be more than happy to see more transport options, but it won't, and the government will have to pay to keep it running. It just simply isn't going to provide transportation for enough people to cause the government to pay for it, not in today's economy where we're laying off state workers and cutting other more beneficial programs left and right simply because we don't have the money to pay their salaries.

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