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  • #41
    Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

    Obama just gave Florida billions in federal dollars, so to FL taxpayers, this project is less expensive than ever before.

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    • #42
      Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

      Originally posted by kcnole View Post
      Its this subsidization by the FL tax payers that has me up in arms over this. If the thing can operate and even just break even with its business plan then I'd be more than happy to see more transport options, but it won't, and the government will have to pay to keep it running. It just simply isn't going to provide transportation for enough people to cause the government to pay for it, not in today's economy where we're laying off state workers and cutting other more beneficial programs left and right simply because we don't have the money to pay their salaries.
      Do the Florida toll roads generate profit? What about the interstates that the state is responsible for maintaining?

      Comment


      • #43
        Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

        Originally posted by kcnole View Post
        What people fail to realize is that people love their cars. Tourists wouldn't utilize this system nearly as much as you think they would, at least not enough to offset the tremendous cost of running a rail line.

        If you find situations where rail lines are profitable in the US and don't require government subsidization to work then I'd like to see them. Maybe NY and Chicago's system, but those are densely populated areas, Orlando is not a densely populated area, and its far too spread out to work in a profitable way.

        As for Orlando's traffic, it's annoying, but its far from anything like what places like NY have to deal with. Its nowhere near bad enough that the majority of people would be willing to abandon their cars and jump on a train. Heck, its not as bad as Atlanta who does have a train system, the majority of people who take Marta aren't doing so because they don't want to ride a car, they're doing it because its there only real way to get around outside of a few special situations such as heading to sporting events where parking is limited.

        Even in Chicago it takers Government subsidies to make the L system run without interruption...but your right the problem is that people love their cars way too much even in areas where mass transit greatly reduces traffic still many people refuse to take it out of love for their cars...and unfortunately Floridians still have everything so spread out that it is impractical to utilize public transit I think commuters from Tampa and surrounding areas to Orlando will be better than nothing to aleviate some of the traffic in those areas...but not as much as the government and people think probably just enough to keep this High speed rail afloat with alittle help from the State of Florida..
        The test of success is not what you do when you are on top. Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.
        -George S. Patton

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        • #44
          Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

          Originally posted by lazyboy97O View Post
          Do the Florida toll roads generate profit? What about the interstates that the state is responsible for maintaining?
          There will always be a lot of naysayers.

          But I firmly believe that if we invest in the infrastructure and get high speed trains running, people will adopt them, driving your own car everywhere is highly over rated. Some people correctly point out that it's highly useful to have a subway network to connect into when you reach your destination. But you can't do everything all at once, and this is a new technology where America lags behind not just Europe and Japan, but also China. It's a great way to put people to work, we'll enjoy the benefits of this for many generations, just as we enjoy driving over the Golden Gate Bridge in 2010.

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          • #45
            Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

            Originally posted by aimster View Post
            compared to the mess in Tampa. Plus the bulk of Florida drivers are the WORST drivers I have ever seen (how the blazes did these people manage to get their license?).
            Tampa is bad, I would say, I guess I would agree that it is worse than Orlando. Maybe the difference is I have not nearly been killed in Orlando, while Tampa left us in a string of near-misses that ended up in a rear-ending.

            Which brings me to my real complaint: insurance. This "no fault" and "everyone must have insurance" means plenty of half-assed (IE couldn't operate in any state with actual regulation) companies can give coverage to drivers simply to "have coverage" which makes it a pain for those of us that get rear-ended (AT A STOP) by people with that cheap coverage.

            Off my soapbox now. :angel:

            Originally posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
            Obama just gave Florida billions in federal dollars, so to FL taxpayers, this project is less expensive than ever before.
            Florida is still part of the Union last I checked so the project is just as expensive as ever as we are all still responsible for our national deficit. We'll be paying for it at some point.

            Originally posted by lazyboy97O View Post
            Does anybody know if Florida's toll roads generate any profit and what that money goes on to fund?
            In Orange county that goes to fund the corrupt toll comissioner who hires his friends for jobs, raises rates, gives everyone bonuses and then when named by an independent commission as being corrupt, somehow manages to keep his job and get the independent commission to quit.

            Originally posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
            There will always be a lot of naysayers.

            But I firmly believe that if we invest in the infrastructure and get high speed trains running, people will adopt them, driving your own car everywhere is highly over rated.
            I'm not against the modernization of our transportation networks in this country. I just think there are issues here at hand still. I also think there are better places to link (Boston to DC with a stop in NYC), but I am for a well thought out train anywhere.

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            • #46
              Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

              Boston - NYC - DC has Acela, the nation's only high speed train.

              Problem is, it can't go full speed for very much of the track, because it's too windy or the tunnels are too old (Baltimore's tunnels were built before the Civil War).

              A large part of the cost is making grade-seperated straight lenths of track, so the trains can do what they're made to do... go FASSSSSSSSSSSSST.

              Comment


              • #47
                Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                Indeed, the high speed rail line is exciting news for both Florida residents and tourists. I didn't find any posts talking about Sunrail, which is a commuter rail line in central Florida that will open shortly before high speed rail will open. It's recent approval from the powers in Tallahassee helped fuel the decision from Obama's team to support Florida's high speed rail over other proposed rail lines.

                As the Sentinel points out, the high speed rail won't directly connect to the sunrail system, High-speed rail: How will downtown Orlando fit into high-speed rail - OrlandoSentinel.com and it's six miles between the Convention Center station of high speed rail and the nearest sunrail station The region's mass-transit future - OrlandoSentinel.com. For more information on Sunrail, check out SunRail | Changing the Way Central Florida Travels.

                Over time, though, it won't require a bus to get between Sunrail and the high speed rail line. In fact, there is a comprehensive master system for rail in Orlando. Here's the image, in case anyone is curious: http://www.metroplanorlando.com/site...ConceptMap.jpg

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                • #48
                  Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                  Obama just gave Florida billions in federal dollars, so to FL taxpayers, this project is less expensive than ever before.
                  The Federal Government can't just magically print dollars. Those dollars are my dollars and your dollars. They have to be paid back sometime. Where do you think the Federal government got the money to "give" this to FL from? It came from our taxes.

                  Secondly if you're going to "give" a billion dollars to Florida, then let them choose to spend it where it can go to best use. Florida has had to slash its regular operating budget by billions, the best guess estimate is that next budget will probably bring another several billion dollar cut (no matter what Governor Crist tries to tell us). If we can't even afford to adequately fund the agencies and policies that are actually useful to Florida, why are we throwing billions towards something very few people will actually find useful?

                  Secondly, even though it may be cheaper to build than ever, it still has to run. It can't run on its own so its going to continue to be a drain on Florida's taxpayers for its entire existence while very few people will ever use it. As others have said, even in densely populated areas they don't make money. How do we expect this to?

                  Do the Florida toll roads generate profit? What about the interstates that the state is responsible for maintaining?
                  We're comparing Apples and Oranges again. People use the interstates, and the toll roads do pay for themselves eventually, at least their construction. We have roads with a ton of cars on them, which will only increase. The study's have shown that this train will not make a dent in traffic, and that ridership will be very low.

                  Again I ask why we're funding something that very few people will use when we can't even adequately pay for the things that tons of people do use (education for example). The class size amendment is about to finally kick in hard and heavy costing the state even more dollars that we don't currently have.

                  Keep in mind that Florida's constitution does not allow the state to have deficit spending like the Federal government does. So if we are to pay for all these things, we're either going to have to raise taxes quite a bit (stifling economic growth in the process) or cut even more vital state functions than we already have.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                    Originally posted by kcnole
                    The Federal Government can't just magically print dollars. Those dollars are my dollars and your dollars. They have to be paid back sometime. Where do you think the Federal government got the money to "give" this to FL from? It came from our taxes.
                    Right, but the jobs created by building this project are going to help spur the improvement of the worst economy since the Great Depression by creating thousands of jobs. If the line is successful (and I say if to be objective here, personally I think over time it will be very successful), construction jobs in rail will be sustained for decades until a vast rail network is complete. Surely, by then our economy will be improved. Actually, if the government doesn't do project like this, it has to do exactly what you suggest- print money (inflation). Hopefully, with projects like this, that doesn't happen (or at least, it is minimized).
                    Secondly if you're going to "give" a billion dollars to Florida, then let them choose to spend it where it can go to best use.
                    They already did choose to build a high speed railroad, several years ago on a statewide ballot. Jeb Bush failed to build what Florida voters overwhelmingly supported and approved. So, I don't think you can really fairly say that Floridians didn't have a chance to choose to build high speed rail.
                    Florida has had to slash its regular operating budget by billions, the best guess estimate is that next budget will probably bring another several billion dollar cut (no matter what Governor Crist tries to tell us). If we can't even afford to adequately fund the agencies and policies that are actually useful to Florida, why are we throwing billions towards something very few people will actually find useful?
                    Actually, the just approved state budget is better than it was last year. Hopefully this will be a good year for the Florida economy. Public education spending will be higher in the new budget than it has been in two decades. All of this is possible because the state has made great strides in the last budget to slash unnecessary spending (for example, closing a FSU's expensive state supported "circus museum" in Tampa and consolidating duplicate departments and redundant programs across multiple colleges at FSU).
                    Secondly, even though it may be cheaper to build than ever, it still has to run. It can't run on its own so its going to continue to be a drain on Florida's taxpayers for its entire existence while very few people will ever use it. As others have said, even in densely populated areas they don't make money. How do we expect this to?
                    You saying very few people will ever use it is simply conjecture, just like it would be for me to say everybody will use it. The state invested in professional statistical collection that led to the conclusion that the line is a good investment for the state. No, that is not a guarrantee, but I tend to be more optimistic about it than you appear to be.
                    We're comparing Apples and Oranges again. People use the interstates, and the toll roads do pay for themselves eventually, at least their construction.
                    That's a straw man argument, to paraphrase "people use roads so they won't use rail" (forgive me if you weren't trying to sound that extreme). As several others have pointed out in this thread, roads don't pay for themselves. I wouldn't point to the "efficiency" of the toll road system in Orlando, either- look at the recent scandals involved with the orange county expressway authority (do a simple google news search). Tolls offset expenditure on roads, but they're certainly not free. Transportation is going to be an expenditure, no matter what the option. As Joe Biden pointed out in the town hall speech in Tampa, it's more expensive to add a lane of highway than it is to lay a rail bed.
                    We have roads with a ton of cars on them, which will only increase. The study's have shown that this train will not make a dent in traffic, and that ridership will be very low.
                    I'd like to see that study, because I would be very surprised by those results.
                    Last edited by gatorgrad; 02-04-2010, 04:28 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                      Originally posted by CaliforniaAdventurer View Post
                      Boston - NYC - DC has Acela, the nation's only high speed train.

                      Problem is, it can't go full speed for very much of the track, because it's too windy or the tunnels are too old (Baltimore's tunnels were built before the Civil War).

                      A large part of the cost is making grade-seperated straight lenths of track, so the trains can do what they're made to do... go FASSSSSSSSSSSSST.
                      Actually, there aren't any grade crossings at all on the Northeast Corridor (Acela's only route) between New York and Washington. That's not the problem; The primary limitation on train speed stems from a lack of constant tension catenary. Test trains have run there at upwards of 160 mph anyway, but that's probably asking for trouble, not really something you want to try on a regular scheduled operation.

                      There are a literal handful of crossings east of New Haven, but they are all in station or terminal areas where no train will ever be moving too fast anyway. New York state is/was/will be planning 110 mph operation between New York City and Albany, which will operate through at grade crossings.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                        roads are a necessity for most people...
                        ... mass transit isn't.

                        So roads not being self-supporting is generally accepted. But go and build a road or bridge for some niche application/location that isn't usable by most people.. and you'll hear uproar about that typically as well.

                        The billion dollars from the Fed aren't even enough to make this thing happen... the other dollars will have to come from the locals as well as the operating and future capital expenditures. It's kind of like getting a 10% coupon... sure its 'free money', but only if you spend the other 90%.
                        Check out my blog - Coreplex: Rambling from inside the Grid


                        Am I evil? yes, I am
                        Am I evil? I am man, yes, I am

                        Originally posted by sleepyjeff
                        Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                          Right, but the jobs created by building this project are going to help spur the improvement of the worst economy since the Great Depression by creating thousands of jobs. If the line is successful (and I say if to be objective here, personally I think over time it will be very successful), construction jobs in rail will be sustained for decades until a vast rail network is complete. Surely, by then our economy will be improved. Actually, if the government doesn't do project like this, it has to do exactly what you suggest- print money (inflation). Hopefully, with projects like this, that doesn't happen (or at least, it is minimized).
                          This isn't the place to argue political points and as the idea of government spending actually creating real jobs then I'll just say I disagree and leave it to that. Political discussions often fall into nasty arguments and I don't want to bring that to these boards.

                          Actually, the just approved state budget is better than it was last year. Hopefully this will be a good year for the Florida economy. Public education spending will be higher in the new budget than it has been in two decades. All of this is possible because the state has made great strides in the last budget to slash unnecessary spending (for example, closing a FSU's expensive state supported "circus museum" in Tampa and consolidating duplicate departments and redundant programs across multiple colleges at FSU).
                          If you're referring to the budget Crist just put forward then that hasn't been approved. The legislature hasn't even met to work on that one yet. lets just say that his proposed budget is simply election material as the final budget will not be the excess 3 billion that Crist proposes, but from all reports I've read lately, will probably be even a billion less than the last budget. We've got major budget shortfalls that have just been discovered that weren't prepared for.

                          I did enjoy the not so subtle jabs at FSU though, even though they were misinformed. Not suprised considering your screen name though.

                          I'm going to let this debate drop from here though as I try to keep politics and the magical experience of Disney away from each other. I've been debating this on and off with a number of people on several other forums for quite a while now. I'll leave my heated political debates for there however.

                          I'm sure WDW will reap a profit for this, but I'm just afraid its going to be a massive drain on Florida taxpayers for years just like the other approved constitutional amendment to class sizes is becoming. These amendments were voted on before they were required to disclose costs, now that people are seeing the costs of these projects they're reversing their opinions very quickly.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                            Just join Micechat Gold and you have have the discussions there Keep your Disney and 'other' stuff
                            Check out my blog - Coreplex: Rambling from inside the Grid


                            Am I evil? yes, I am
                            Am I evil? I am man, yes, I am

                            Originally posted by sleepyjeff
                            Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                              This isn't the place to argue political points ... but I'm just afraid its going to be a massive drain on Florida taxpayers for years
                              You can't have it both ways. You can't come in here with guns blazing saying "don't build this boondoggle" and in the same breath say "but I don't want this conversation to be political."

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                                To get into a huge debate on to whether government creates jobs or not is a different direction than I want to discuss. I'll just leave it at saying I don't think the government is truly capable of creating jobs. However to get into my reasons on why I believe that would take this conversation in a much different direction and would probably get into a lot more heated discussions than I want to bring to a Disney board.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                                  One of the major reasons that high speed rail infrastructure is receiving Federal Funding is because it is funded by an economic stimulus bill intent on creating jobs and growing the economy. It wouldn't be getting funded otherwise.

                                  I don't understand your comment that this "is a different direction than I want to discuss." In that case, don't post in the thread.

                                  There are socio political dynamics involved, to ignore them would be to manipulate the conversation. Again, you obviously have a political agenda - you don't want taxes going to this, you don't want to pay for this, you don't think it will create jobs, you think the whole Recovery Act is bad.

                                  Well I don't agree. I think the time is now. I think this is a good investment in our country's transportation infrastructure. I think it will change people's habits, once they have high speed ground transportation available.

                                  I think it's high time Disneyland and Walt Disney World were plugged in to rail, the way all of their overseas counterparts are.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                                    One of the major reasons that high speed rail infrastructure is receiving Federal Funding is because it is funded by an economic stimulus bill intent on creating jobs and growing the economy. It wouldn't be getting funded otherwise.
                                    Fine, government is incapable of creating jobs no matter what is stated. It is a flawed Keynesian principle. For the government to spend it must take money from the private sector. The private sector is the one area truly capable of creating jobs.

                                    All this ridiculous waste of money will do is cause further devaluation of the dollar, further tax increases on the one entity capable of actually creating jobs, and continue to hold this country down in a recession. It would be one thing if it were funding going to an entity that has a proven profit model, but there is not one area where we've ever seen this be a profit earner. So once again our government is going to choose to spend our hard earned dollars on a failed plan to stimulate the economy. So far, the stimulus bill has stimulated nothing.

                                    I wouldn't be so annoyed if it were going to something that would create jobs and sustain itself, but to go forward to a system that very few people will ride, that will continue to drain money from our already weak economy through increased taxation is a horrible idea. As a Florida citizen, the one who will be forced to pay for this into the future, I despise the idea.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                                      Basically you're a fiscal conservative who's happy driving his own Suburban?

                                      That's fine but there's another group of people who want European/Asian style train networks to get some of the traffic off our roads and out of the sky.

                                      Some of the other benefits are you reduce pollution, decongest busy roads and perhaps slow the growth of airports. Passengers can rest and relax rather than concentrating on driving. For relatively short distances like Tampa-Orlando-Miami it makes more sense than increasing commuter flights, you'll arrive at your destination faster on the ground than if you had to go through 1 or 2 hour preboarding security at the airport.

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                                      • #59
                                        Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                                        Fiscal Conservative true. Driving my own Suburban hardly. I'm sure there are people who wish we had European type transportation, what they fail to realize is that America is much more spread out that Europe is. You can easily link all of Europe with trains, because of our suburban lifestyles in the US it doesn't work that well.

                                        I'm not against mass transit in areas where it makes fiscal sense to do so. I just hardly see this route being popular enough to make it a sound idea. What we'll wind up doing is having the majority of Floridians who couldn't care less about this route financing the very small minority who do. Its ridiculous.

                                        There's been study after study done in Tallahassee that shows this will be a tremendous money sink for Floridians. Were we in prosperous times I might see it as an ok expenditure. The fact is we can't afford the new class size amendment coming through, we've already cut almost every state agency to the bone. There's no where left to cut in Florida, and unlike our Federal government, Florida isn't allowed to have deficit spending. So the only other option is to increase taxes substantially to pay for all these new programs.

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                                        • #60
                                          Re: WDW to provide 50 acres of free land for high speed train

                                          I'm not against mass transit in areas where it makes fiscal sense to do so.
                                          Out of curiosity, which high speed rail corridors do you support then? The California HSR project? The Vegas to Anaheim proposal? The various Chicago-centric corridors? The Vancouver BC to Portland OR corridor?

                                          IMO Central Florida's myriad attractions make it an excellent target for bringing in people from Tampa and Miami on high speed rail. I just think areas like Orlando, Las Vegas and Anaheim could bring in their regional visitors by train rather than by private automobile or a combo of air+rental car.

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