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  • #41
    Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bill
    we care more about show than efficiency... though because you work in ops, your managers probably forget that because counts are the most important thing that can be improved to them... understandable, but not what WDI wants.


    Originally posted by tloolgb View Post
    Yeah I was going to say...show over efficiency? That's just silly theory these days. Don't say that near the Haunted Mansion's shorter stretch room program and new policy of "keep the front doors open and keep yelling over Master Gracey to squeeze MORE MORE MORE into the Stretch Rooms regardless of how off your show timing is!!!".

    Yeah...so as for Space, audio I can live without...I like the silent space. I could have gone for more effects than just blinding me with a flash (before the lift hill?) and a darker mountain though.
    Bill and thoolgb... you two ROCK! You couldn't be any more correct. Efficiency managers royally foul up everything that they touch. WDI must loath them as much as we do. A creative show/ride is the force that engenders the public to Disney. Eventually, the bad apples always seem to have a way of falling by the wayside, while giving way to those that truely care about the guest experience.

    I believe that it is only a matter of time before the idiots at WDW get a swift kick in the bumm by the Mouse, just as they have at the Disneyland Resort.
    To Boldly Go Where No MiceChatter Has Gone Before!

    Comment


    • #42
      Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

      Originally posted by Bill View Post
      Really now? Ever worked at Space Mt. in California? They don't seem to have any efficiency problem with their audio on their trains. Last time I checked, we care more about show than efficiency... though because you work in ops, your managers probably forget that because counts are the most important thing that can be improved to them... understandable, but not what WDI wants.

      Anyhow, adding audio to Space Mountain in Florida would not be a long and drawn out process. It would involve very little. The biggest hurdle is battery life and charging times. Those rockets don't stay put for very long! Thank goodness for new battery technology! For non believers, go look at X-2.
      That's weird because Disneyland trains are a heck of alot bigger than WDW space rockets. So the room for onboard audio at DL was already there. You say they don't have an efficiency issue at DL? Well before this rehab I admit that Space at WDW has had it's fair share of down times but that's exactly why this rehab was so desperately needed. The amount of time and money that was given was just for that aspect alone. The amount of show effects and repainting was a blessing. So of course after an extensive referb at DL they would not have an issue. When Space at WDW is totally finished the amount of down times should be a thing of the past. Plus the amount of trains that DL has compared to WDW is a lot less. Granted they have more seats in them but WDW makes up for it in the amount of trains and the dispatch times. You also made a comment about adding audio not being a big deal. REALLY??? In order to get audio on a ride that was never intended to have it you need new cars to fit the equipment which will make the cars heavier and larger so that will affect the load and unload areas the track supports, the train timing, the brakes, the conveyor motors, the charging stations pretty much the ENTIRE ride. So adding audio is no small task. Now if you talking about a BGM through out the ride then that's a different matter. And I would agree that it would be much easier.

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      • #43
        Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

        Originally posted by Bill View Post
        Really now? Ever worked at Space Mt. in California? They don't seem to have any efficiency problem with their audio on their trains. Last time I checked, we care more about show than efficiency... though because you work in ops, your managers probably forget that because counts are the most important thing that can be improved to them... understandable, but not what WDI wants.

        Anyhow, adding audio to Space Mountain in Florida would not be a long and drawn out process. It would involve very little. The biggest hurdle is battery life and charging times. Those rockets don't stay put for very long! Thank goodness for new battery technology! For non believers, go look at X-2.

        Of course they don't have an efficiency problem after their own extensive refurb about 3 years ago. Disneyland is always going to put show in front of efficiency. 1/3 of their attendance is annual passholders who don't want to see the same thing over and over and over again. They have better upkeep there because of that. Now look at WDW, where the majority of the attendance is first-time visitors who want to get as much done in one visit. You forget that Magic Kingdom is the #1 park in the world regarding attendance so unfortunately we have to be able to get people in and out as quickly as possible. At WDW, people complain more about the lines and wait times than anything else.

        And it's not the managers who get their panties in a twist over efficiency. It's the park VPs and execs. The same ones who waltz over to Space one day, see a 60 min wait time and change it down to 30 so the guests don't complain. Unfortunately, efficiency is more important than show at WDW. Deal with it.

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        • #44
          Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

          Dot, I think you're probably a very good Cast Member, but I believe you've been brainwashed by someone at WDW with a lot of misinformation. Let me enlighten you.

          Claim: WDW doesn't have nearly as many APs as DL.

          Fact: WDW and DL has comparable amounts of Passholders. The only difference is that WDW is much larger, and they make up a smaller percentage total. Treat yourself and look at the numbers for WDW Passholders and DL Passholders. The numbers are very similar once you take into account the different types of passes. In reality, both resorts have about 800,000-900,000 Passholders, but Disneyland's numbers are far skewed to look like they're around 1,200,000 because of the Southern California Select Passes that aren't valid on weekends and the like. WDW has nothing comparable. Currently, the AP structures are entirely different between WDW and DL. This argument doesn't hold much water.

          Claim: 1/3 of their (Disneyland's) attendance is annual passholders who don't want to see the same thing over and over and over again. They have better upkeep there because of that.

          Fact: We've already talked about Disneyland's attendance, but I digress. Because WDW is supposedly the crown jewel of Disney Parks, it should have the best upkeep. It makes the most revenue per guest. And by that logic, Disneyland's Passholders wouldn't exist, because they wouldn't want to see the same thing over and over again. Completely lost me on that one. So I don't know why on earth you'd say otherwise unless you were misinformed. If capacity was the main issue, Space Mountain at WDW should have been re-built with two new tracks, (same layout) but with the ability to use Disneyland's rockets instead of WDW's. That would have doubled the capacity. No one wanted to spend the money.

          Claim: At WDW, people complain more about the lines and wait times than anything else.

          Fact: Lines and wait times are NOT the number one complaint at WDW. Know what is? Characters! They didn't get to see enough characters. Didn't have the chance to meet their favorite character. They couldn't find them or missed them. That's the number one complaint at WDW, and it outnumbers every other complaint at least 2 to 1. The 2nd most common complaint? Depending on the time of year, it's either that FastPasses were all gone or that there weren't enough places open to eat. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that waiting in line isn't a major complaint, it is, but it's not the number one complaint.

          Claim: It's the park VPs and execs. The same ones who waltz over to Space one day, see a 60 min wait time and change it down to 30 so the guests don't complain.

          Fact: Park VPs and Execs don't randomly adjust wait times... yes, they would like to see shorter waits and higher capacities, but they know that changing a published wait time isn't going to help lower the wait. What kind of fools do you take them for?

          Claim: Unfortunately, efficiency is more important than show at WDW. Deal with it.

          Fact: That's totally not what is supposed to be. If this is occurring, it is not what is being directed by corporate and needs to be fixed immediately. You've brought up many good points about VPs wanting efficiency to be higher, and I've witnessed many managers that have that same mindset. But this is NOT what is truly important at WDW. It's the quality. "Quality will out." -Walt Disney

          And for those of you who are from the "Walt is dead, it doesn't matter" camp, I leave you with a quote from my friend who's still alive and running a good portion of the company:

          "I was in one meeting once, and I went to one of the finance guys and they were talking about something they had to cut out, and I said, 'Okay, umm, are you going to be the one at the exit of a ride, and explain to everybody getting off the ride why it's successful because it's on-time and on-budget when it's a piece of crap?' and he said, 'Oh my God I can't believe you just said that! I could be fired!' and yes he did get fired, so, and then, it's just something I believe." -John Lasseter

          My point is, it's about the quality of the show, balanced with a pre-determined capacity. Hourly capacity should not be used to rate the success of an attraction, nor should capacity and Guest expectations prevent a full scale refurbishment to keep the quality of an attraction up to par. Nor should we care if Space Mountain is closed during your visit for an extended refurbishment for a year that we gave everyone more than six months notice about.

          The Magic Kingdom is in a tough place. They've removed so many attractions, that the park can't operate well without Guest complaints when even one attraction is closed. That is the root of the problem. Not this capacity thing.
          -Bill

          Comment


          • #45
            Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

            Originally posted by FX-1 View Post
            That's weird because Disneyland trains are a heck of alot bigger than WDW space rockets. So the room for onboard audio at DL was already there. You say they don't have an efficiency issue at DL? Well before this rehab I admit that Space at WDW has had it's fair share of down times but that's exactly why this rehab was so desperately needed. The amount of time and money that was given was just for that aspect alone. The amount of show effects and repainting was a blessing. So of course after an extensive referb at DL they would not have an issue. When Space at WDW is totally finished the amount of down times should be a thing of the past. Plus the amount of trains that DL has compared to WDW is a lot less. Granted they have more seats in them but WDW makes up for it in the amount of trains and the dispatch times. You also made a comment about adding audio not being a big deal. REALLY??? In order to get audio on a ride that was never intended to have it you need new cars to fit the equipment which will make the cars heavier and larger so that will affect the load and unload areas the track supports, the train timing, the brakes, the conveyor motors, the charging stations pretty much the ENTIRE ride. So adding audio is no small task. Now if you talking about a BGM through out the ride then that's a different matter. And I would agree that it would be much easier.
            Go look at X-2. I'm done here. You have no concept of how easy it is to add audio to a coaster in this day and age. And Disneyland's trains were re-designed for their audio because of the weight of batteries. Try again.
            -Bill

            Comment


            • #46
              Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

              In order to get audio on a ride that was never intended to have it you need new cars to fit the equipment which will make the cars heavier and larger so that will affect the load and unload areas the track supports, the train timing, the brakes, the conveyor motors, the charging stations pretty much the ENTIRE ride.
              Not really.

              Yes, we probably would need brand new cars completely, those were originally planned but dropped at the last minute. As I already posted one rumor flowing around is that we'll get a new car made out of a lightweight composite material which will help offset the added weight of onboard audio.

              Secondly the batteries needed to do this now vs what was needed back when DL added onboard audio are much much smaller and lighter now than they were then. Plus the movement of the trains can be used to keep a battery charged as they move along the track.

              Finally, remember while they didn't rebuild the track they added a ton of supports to it. This was done to help the track be more stable but it wasn't necessary. These supports were added with the future in mind and should be enough to deal with any added weight.

              Comment


              • #47
                Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

                Ok, I'm not an electrician, or an engineer, or a physicist, but I have a quick question. This may sound stupid, but for the case of the batteries, couldn't they make it so that the wheels generated energy when they spun, charging the batteries (similar to the wind up cars that you pull back in order to charge them? [I may be showing my age here as I don't know if they even make toy cars that do that anymore]).

                Comment


                • #48
                  Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

                  Originally posted by Figment Fan View Post
                  Ok, I'm not an electrician, or an engineer, or a physicist, but I have a quick question. This may sound stupid, but for the case of the batteries, couldn't they make it so that the wheels generated energy when they spun, charging the batteries (similar to the wind up cars that you pull back in order to charge them? [I may be showing my age here as I don't know if they even make toy cars that do that anymore]).
                  They do still make energy generating toys. Although energy producing ride cars would not produce enough energy to fully operate an entire ride, your idea is ecceptional. Attached power producing generators could potentially make rides more cost effective.
                  Last edited by Ride Warrior; 11-22-2009, 06:11 PM.
                  To Boldly Go Where No MiceChatter Has Gone Before!

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

                    I figured it would be enough to power the on-board audio, thus maybe reducing, or eliminating, the need for recharging the cars. I agree, it could not power the whole ride though. I'm all about the idea of ways to reduce energy costs, and efficiency in anything is always a plus.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

                      Originally posted by Figment Fan View Post
                      I figured it would be enough to power the on-board audio, thus maybe reducing, or eliminating, the need for recharging the cars. I agree, it could not power the whole ride though. I'm all about the idea of ways to reduce energy costs, and efficiency in anything is always a plus.
                      Ahh! An energy generator for each car could power an on-board audio system... especially if the cars were made of a hi-tech light composite material (as was the suggestion of another contributer to this thead).
                      To Boldly Go Where No MiceChatter Has Gone Before!

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

                        A charging system using the wheels would not work on a roller coaster if retrofitted on.

                        A roller coaster works based on potential energy... you put it up on top of a lift hill and drop it. The potential energy is converted to kenetic and you zoom around the ride. As everyone is familar, your ability to complete the track circuit is based on you having enough potential energy so you don't get stuck and stall out.

                        A system that tried to generate power by using the rotating wheels of the car would require the wheels be slowed down if you were to take any of the rotational energy away (conservation of energy!). This slowing down of the wheels to generate power would rob the train of the essential energy it needs to complete the track circuit.. leading to stalls or cars not being able to make the circuit as originally built at all.

                        Conservation of energy my friends... it must come from somewhere, and the trains already need all their potential energy - you can't afford to steal it away from the wheels if you want your coaster to actually make it
                        Check out my blog - Coreplex: Rambling from inside the Grid


                        Am I evil? yes, I am
                        Am I evil? I am man, yes, I am

                        Originally posted by sleepyjeff
                        Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

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                        • #52
                          Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

                          Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
                          A charging system using the wheels would not work on a roller coaster if retrofitted on.

                          A roller coaster works based on potential energy... you put it up on top of a lift hill and drop it. The potential energy is converted to kenetic and you zoom around the ride. As everyone is familar, your ability to complete the track circuit is based on you having enough potential energy so you don't get stuck and stall out.

                          A system that tried to generate power by using the rotating wheels of the car would require the wheels be slowed down if you were to take any of the rotational energy away (conservation of energy!). This slowing down of the wheels to generate power would rob the train of the essential energy it needs to complete the track circuit.. leading to stalls or cars not being able to make the circuit as originally built at all.

                          Conservation of energy my friends... it must come from somewhere, and the trains already need all their potential energy - you can't afford to steal it away from the wheels if you want your coaster to actually make it
                          In keeping with the laws of physics, this makes logical sense flynn. You never fell to amaze me with your technical knowledge. Would like to see you take part in a ride designing project one of these days! :thumbup:
                          To Boldly Go Where No MiceChatter Has Gone Before!

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

                            I did not even think about the fact that the generation of energy would slow the car down and take away the energy needed to move the car. Good point. Oh well, it isn't like it would have been implemented from my comments anyway (if it had been possible).

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

                              It's fun to be creative... it's just sometimes those laws of physics come back to haunt ya
                              Check out my blog - Coreplex: Rambling from inside the Grid


                              Am I evil? yes, I am
                              Am I evil? I am man, yes, I am

                              Originally posted by sleepyjeff
                              Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

                                Yeah, reality can be a real limiting factor on these things, can't it?

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

                                  I will agree you had valid arguments up until this point:

                                  Originally posted by Bill View Post

                                  Claim: It's the park VPs and execs. The same ones who waltz over to Space one day, see a 60 min wait time and change it down to 30 so the guests don't complain.
                                  I have seen them do it on numerous occasions at Space when we are trying to recover from a downtime. That's an actual event i witnessed a few times.

                                  As far as the attendance claims, you should talk to my professors at UCF that have taught me that. These are professors that work or worked for Disney at some point and now teach in the Theme Park specialized track UCF offers.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

                                    Originally posted by Bill View Post
                                    Go look at X-2. I'm done here. You have no concept of how easy it is to add audio to a coaster in this day and age. And Disneyland's trains were re-designed for their audio because of the weight of batteries. Try again.

                                    Actually what he said about the entire ride being altered for on board audio came from the mouth of a ride and show engineer who we worked with during test and adjust at Space. We flat out asked the engineer about it and he explained how it would affect the ride, what would be added and altered, etc. WDI oversees ride and show and mainly handles all the show elements of the ride, while ride and show mainly handles the ride software and the track (brakes, conveyor motors, lifts, etc). So the addition of on-board audio would be a ride and show project. I highly doubt that the engineer didn't know what he was talking about. They planned for it but it got cut either right before we went down or during the refurb. I'm not knocking on-board audio but it would be unrealistic to have that done as well as everything else done in a small amount of time, like 7 months. It took them about 7 months to put the new ride system software in and we're still having glitches even today. The easiest part of a refurb is the painting but even then it can be ****ed up by 3rd party contractors, i.e. Space Mt's load dock floor. If you ever get to the load dock and the lights are turned on, look down. The floor's paint job SUCKS! A refurb isn't a cut and dry as it may seem my friend. These last 3 months I've been inside Space have been both eye opening and excruciating to witness.

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                                    • #58
                                      Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

                                      but it would be unrealistic to have that done as well as everything else done in a small amount of time, like 7 months.
                                      Of course, no one really expected that. The original downtime was more like a year and a half.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

                                        Originally posted by Bug View Post
                                        I will agree you had valid arguments up until this point:



                                        I have seen them do it on numerous occasions at Space when we are trying to recover from a downtime. That's an actual event i witnessed a few times.

                                        As far as the attendance claims, you should talk to my professors at UCF that have taught me that. These are professors that work or worked for Disney at some point and now teach in the Theme Park specialized track UCF offers.
                                        Well, that's distressing to hear. Then again, Phil doesn't have the best record...

                                        Let me guess, Ady told you that? Or Duncan? I know it wasn't Ron. lol Ady's research is from years ago, Duncan knows what he's talking about usually, and Ron was the entertainment side.
                                        -Bill

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Re: Space Mountain Rehab Track Refurb On The Fast Track Horizon

                                          Originally posted by Bug View Post
                                          Actually what he said about the entire ride being altered for on board audio came from the mouth of a ride and show engineer who we worked with during test and adjust at Space. We flat out asked the engineer about it and he explained how it would affect the ride, what would be added and altered, etc. WDI oversees ride and show and mainly handles all the show elements of the ride, while ride and show mainly handles the ride software and the track (brakes, conveyor motors, lifts, etc). So the addition of on-board audio would be a ride and show project. I highly doubt that the engineer didn't know what he was talking about. They planned for it but it got cut either right before we went down or during the refurb. I'm not knocking on-board audio but it would be unrealistic to have that done as well as everything else done in a small amount of time, like 7 months. It took them about 7 months to put the new ride system software in and we're still having glitches even today. The easiest part of a refurb is the painting but even then it can be ****ed up by 3rd party contractors, i.e. Space Mt's load dock floor. If you ever get to the load dock and the lights are turned on, look down. The floor's paint job SUCKS! A refurb isn't a cut and dry as it may seem my friend. These last 3 months I've been inside Space have been both eye opening and excruciating to witness.
                                          I have a feeling that your engineer just wasn't versed on the newer technologies that exist. Even 4 years ago, that would have been true. But batteries have come a long way since then. We can thank Steve Jobs over at Apple for that.

                                          And yes, I agree, 7 months could have not completed everything. But I still believe that on-board audio is something that can be done at night with minimal impact to day guests. After the elements are installed at night, you might have to go down for a week at most to test and adjust the audio sync, that's about it. The rockets can be switched out and upgraded one at a time.
                                          -Bill

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