Monorail Teal..

[Timon]

Re: Monorail Teal..

Being a monorail pilot is no more dangerous than driving Disney busses around.

Probably safer, there are always battered buses behind the shop waiting for bodywork. As for the fatal kind of danger, your probably right even though the odds are more likely worst for buses. Monorail pilots only have to worry about who is in front or behind you not a zillion cars and people coming at you from all angles.

I think the odds are about the same of a collision using an automated system, because we all know how reliable technology is (thats sarcasm)

I'd love to find some per-mile statistics on this. Usually in an automated system the trains are smart and a central computer system watches over the trains, either one can initiate a shut down if there is a problem and they don't get sleepy or distracted. Additionally there are backup systems and human supervision. I'd say the advantage goes to the automated system as an improvement.

I do agree that they do need to be refurbished, which will probably will mean no more smell. I'm not surprised that they do smell, which I think it smells like vynal, because it's used quite a bit.

I believe the carpet has been removed for vinyl flooring which should help. Carpet which gets wet and dirty from thousands of guests gets quite an odor. The one thing they may not have done is cleaned the AC and ducts. In Florida we run our AC nearly 9 months of the year and these systems can pick up and keep an odor in the dust and grime that builds up.

[cakvalasc]

Re: Monorail Teal..

I would love to see the Monorail system expanded at least to DHS that would help a lot for that part and the traffic problem it has when it empties.

[TDLFAN]

Re: Monorail Teal..

I'm not too upset about traffic clearances. It just shows that it is indeed a fully functional transportation system.

Actually.. I think it's deplorable because you may have only 3-4 monorails on a single line at once, and with such small number of vehicles, why should there be delays? In the real world.. train and monorail systems in major cities like Tokyo, Paris, Hong Kong, NYC etc etc, you have hundreds of trains running at once, and things run in time and without delay for the most part. So I ask, why is it a big production at WDW to keep the monorails going fast and efficiently? My guess to that is that the monorail system is operated "like an attraction" and NOT like the true transport system that it is meant to be. In real life, public trains need to move on a schedule, get to station, open doors, people get out, people get in, doors closed and presto! you are moving again. On average, in any given city, train doors are opened at the most 30 seconds. At WDW? the monos stop at the station and everything is slow motion.. sometimes you sit there for minutes with not much happening, while I am sure the train behind is waiting for clearance.
Point is, there is no urgency on the part of the monorail team, to keep the monorails moving like a real transport system. That is why it fails to some degree. The WDW will get you there.. but don't be in a hurry to get there because you will not make it there quickly. And remember, when you have a hopper pass, the more time you spend waiting for traffic clearance, the less time you spend inside the parks, where you should be enjoying your day.

[Timon]

Re: Monorail Teal..

.. train and monorail systems in major cities like Tokyo, Paris, Hong Kong, NYC etc etc, you have hundreds of trains running at once, and things run in time and without delay for the most part. So I ask, why is it a big production at WDW to keep the monorails going fast and efficiently? My guess to that is that the monorail system is operated "like an attraction" and NOT like the true transport system that it is meant to be. to some degree. The WDW will get you there.. but don't be in a hurry.

This is very true. Remember WDW 's system derived from DL's which was an attraction and built apon that. It was much worst with the Mark IV trains, where each door had to be shut by hand. One of the things that really slows things up is the big double bench seat in the middle of the car. People take forever to sit down and get up - sometimes the left end of the car is more crowded than the right side but the bench prevents people from evening out across the car.

Another thing the WDW system doesn't have is a full control room with a big display of where every train is at any time and camera views of every station, switch and roundhouse. This is probably why they get backed up because the pilots are really on their own. FYI the control tower at the TTC can only radio the trains, shut down power to tracks and watch via video the infamous Epcot switch but the switch can only be changed by the Shop - Pure attraction thinking.

And remember, when you have a hopper pass, the more time you spend waiting for traffic clearance, the less time you spend inside the parks, where you should be enjoying your day.

You would think the "bean counters" would want you in the parks spending money and less time tooling around on the monorail or waiting for clearance. Time for some technical improvements.

[Imagineer Scott]

Re: Monorail Teal..

In my experiences with Monorails they go very fast at night and the delays are only about a minute or 2...

Saying the amount of time delayed on the monorail affects your amount of time spent at the parks in a noticable way is such a fabrication and exaggeration of the truth.

[BANANAZ]

Re: Monorail Teal..

Hmmm... the fact that they are using the rest of the old cars worries me a little bit. I understand that it makes transportation harder, but in that case, it should only be a temporary solution. This is a temporary solution, isn't it?

[Imagineer Scott]

Re: Monorail Teal..

Hmmm... the fact that they are using the rest of the old cars worries me a little bit. I understand that it makes transportation harder, but in that case, it should only be a temporary solution. This is a temporary solution, isn't it?

Old cars?

The old cars are really the same monorails they've been using that recently crashed. There's nothing old about them and they were running fine before this crash which was more human error than mechanical error.

And they are making a brand new train.

[D.O.M.]

Re: Monorail Teal..

So I ask, why is it a big production at WDW to keep the monorails going fast and efficiently? My guess to that is that the monorail system is operated "like an attraction" and NOT like the true transport system that it is meant to be. In real life, public trains need to move on a schedule, get to station, open doors, people get out, people get in, doors closed and presto! you are moving again. On average, in any given city, train doors are opened at the most 30 seconds. At WDW? the monos stop at the station and everything is slow motion.. sometimes you sit there for minutes with not much happening, while I am sure the train behind is waiting for clearance.

If you really look at what you posted, I think you kind of answered your own question. There are major differences between running a system like the one at WDW and one in a major city.

First off the Monorails, for the most point, only run between two terminus stations. For the trains running from the TTC to MK (as I'm sure they're the most used) that means everyone (for the most part) that is on the train is going to get off, and everyone waiting at the station is going to get on.

Also because you're at a theme park, you have more people with bags, strollers, kids, disabilities etc than you would on a regular system and that can slow things up. I've also noticed the few times I'm at WDW that people take more time to choose a car to go into, find a seat, make sure everyone is together and whatnot.

They treat it more like an attraction than just a simple means of getting to where they want to go.

For those reasons, having an arbitrary timer on the door that closes it no matter what at a certain time won't really work.

Also you may feel like you're sitting waiting for no reason but I'm sure there are good reasons most of the time. If you have a large group of people waiting for a train, and one comes into the station, you're going to try and get as many people on the train as you can. Lets say you get 2/3 of the people on, and while you're loading it another empty train comes up behind and is waiting. Now that 2nd train is going to load up the other 1/3 of the people much quicker than the first train. It may be ready to leave the station before the first has even arrived at the next station. But there's a 3rd train coming up from behind so it leaves and arrives before that first train has finished emptying and loading, so it has to wait again.

The traffic patterns at a theme park are different than in a city. Even though cities have rush hours and busy times, I'm sure a Theme Park has Crush hours that are quite different than a city.

Also Disney has to worry about the guest experience. They let everyone out of the train before letting anyone get on, they'll try and get as many people on as they comfortably can, and may hold the doors open for guests just coming up the ramp.

The trains that I deal with where I live are not as kind. Once the doors open people are pushing their way on and off through the same doors, the doors will close even if there's still a number of people working their way on (but open again if they hit something), they won't see you running, and I've sat on a platform many times as full trains come and go and I have to wait for one that has some space.

And on top of that they do sit at a terminus station for quite some time.

[TDLFAN]

Re: Monorail Teal..

Even the "Flight to the Moon" preshow had more AAs than this "control center" has!!! No wonder monorails are crashing onto one another.

Also because you're at a theme park, you have more people with bags, strollers, kids, disabilities etc than you would on a regular system and that can slow things up. I've also noticed the few times I'm at WDW that people take more time to choose a car to go into, find a seat, make sure everyone is together and whatnot.

I would like to agree with you, really I would.. but again, I have to use TDR's monorail system as the counter point to this argument. They too have people with strollers, kids, older folks who are slow..etc etc, yet the monos move and move fast, and on the posted times on their electronic boards on their stations. That is the beauty of the automated system versus the manual systems at WDW. At TDR, knowing this information helps me plan my monorail trip and when to be at my final destination. It takes 2 mins from Resort Gateway to TDL station, 3 minutes from TDL to Bayside station, 5 minutes from Bayside to TDS station, and 2 minutes from TDS back to Resort Gateway station. This is the norm there, and I have never EVER been delayed because of technical problem, traffic clearance or to perform one of those "safety checks" they constantly have to with the WDW monos. The TDR monorails sit on the station with doors opened on average 30 seconds.. and keep in mind that at TDL and Bayside stations, the guests embark and disembark on the same side of the train. People there get on and off with no problems, so What makes the crowds at WDW so special as to not move quickly when those door are opened? Are their hineys that big they can't move faster? Do they over pack? Too many kids? This argument does not fly with me. Sorry.

The old cars are really the same monorails they've been using that recently crashed. There's nothing old about them and they were running fine before this crash which was more human error than mechanical

Those monorail cars were put in service back in 1992. EVERYTHING is old with them AND the entire operation of the system.

[s8film40]

Re: Monorail Teal..

Actually.. I think it's deplorable because you may have only 3-4 monorails on a single line at once, and with such small number of vehicles, why should there be delays? In the real world.. train and monorail systems in major cities like Tokyo, Paris, Hong Kong, NYC etc etc, you have hundreds of trains running at once, and things run in time and without delay for the most part. So I ask, why is it a big production at WDW to keep the monorails going fast and efficiently?

The WDW Monorail System is the most heavily traveled monorail system in the world, and considering the number of people that are transported it is very efficient. The fact that you are waiting for traffic clearance does not indicate that the system is necessarily inefficient, but rather they are providing a higher level of service than what is needed. For example they could run the express beam with two trains. Trains could be scheduled to depart every five minutes (a perfectly acceptable real world transit wait time). This would eliminate any waiting for traffic clearance and maintain a reasonable wait time, and furthermore the extra minute or so of waiting time in the station would give people more time to position themselves so that they could load faster for the next train resulting in shorter wait times in the station.

Now the reason why things aren't done this way is that WDW doesn't exactly compare to real world mass transit. The truth is the WDW monorail system actually operates at a much higher capacity than real world mass transit systems. While the WDW system doesn't compare in size to some of the largest transit systems in the world it is more concentrated. Take NY for example yes they have hundreds of trains running and millions of people riding each day but this is spread out over nearly 700 miles of track and almost 500 stations and passenger demand is spread out over a 24 hour period. So with NY's 5.25 million daily ridership spread out over 656 miles that works out to about 8,000 passengers using the system per mile. Now consider that the WDW systems ridership of 200,000 passenger per day over 13.7 miles works out to close to double that of NY at 14,598. Also take into account that people are not as familiar with the WDW system as the average New Yorker is with the subways, the vast majority of passengers are traveling in groups of 3 or 4 or more, and the number of strollers and wheelchairs and it's really a miracle the trains leave the stations as fast as they do. Then throw on Disney's desire not to upset their guests leading them to wait for everyone to get on before closing the doors (and now automatic gates) so no one gets bumped by a gate or door. Considering everything I think the WDW Monorail system is very efficient. Now is there room for improvement yes, I think they could really benefit from an automated system like Las Vegas.

My guess to that is that the monorail system is operated "like an attraction" and NOT like the true transport system that it is meant to be. In real life, public trains need to move on a schedule, get to station, open doors, people get out, people get in, doors closed and presto! you are moving again. On average, in any given city, train doors are opened at the most 30 seconds. At WDW? the monos stop at the station and everything is slow motion.. sometimes you sit there for minutes with not much happening, while I am sure the train behind is waiting for clearance.
Point is, there is no urgency on the part of the monorail team, to keep the monorails moving like a real transport system. That is why it fails to some degree. The WDW will get you there.. but don't be in a hurry to get there because you will not make it there quickly. And remember, when you have a hopper pass, the more time you spend waiting for traffic clearance, the less time you spend inside the parks, where you should be enjoying your day.

The monorail is still faster than buses or driving.

[TDLFAN]

Re: Monorail Teal..

I will give you that much. I hate taking those busses at WDW.

AS for the WDW monorail, yes it has a captived audience, so it's easy to see why they are considered popular. I wonder however, how many guests on average they transport daily. Like the Tokyo/Haneda monorail in Tokyo which carries on average 127,000 passengers daily.

[s8film40]

Re: Monorail Teal..

This is the closest there is to any official numbers it's a little outdated and even then it really is just an estimate since they stopped counting guests.

[TDLFAN]

Re: Monorail Teal..

So based on that, the Haneda monorail packs more people daily, and the busses take the top spot. Way to go for the ghetto busses used at WDW!!!

[s8film40]

Re: Monorail Teal..

I'm not sure I follow how you arrived at that conclusion

Haneda Daily ridership 127,000
WDW Daily Ridership 157,000

looks like WDW packs more people in daily.

Again this is another area where WDW doesn't really compare well with the real world. For real world systems the average is a lot closer to what pretty much happens every day, theme parks have busy and slow seasons cities don't. The WDW system at peak times has a daily ridership of 200,000.

And yes it is pretty sad that the Buses hold the top spot at WDW, but they don't lead by that much and it says a lot that it takes more than 400 buses to transport just a few more people than 12 monorails do.

[ORD84]

Re: Monorail Teal..

I wonder when or if they will ever expand out the monorail granted the costs involved..I would think that it costs less to operate a monorail than a bus fleet??

A long long time ago I heard that they were going to expand it out to AK or DHS but obviously that has yet to come to fruition..but if the costs versus long time savings were there it would be easy to make a argument for the Monorails over the busses..

[s8film40]

Re: Monorail Teal..

What I think would be really great is for Disney to sell the Monorail System to RCID who could then contract Bombardier to expand and automate the system. The money from the sell could be used to fund a parking garage near the Magic Kingdom and the Express and Epcot lines could be combined and then extended to the other parks. This way the monorails could take care of all the park to park transportation making it very easy for guests to park hop. Resort transportation could then be localized for example if you are traveling from anywhere to the Polynesian you would take the monorail to MK and transfer to the resort monorail, going to AK lodge take the monorail to AK and then get the bus from there.

[Thorpeedo]

Re: Monorail Teal..

Expanding or updating the monorail will need significant investment, which will only be made available if there is sufficient drive towards long term plans not short term financial targets. an improved economic picture only servers to make the job of selling the investment to the finance people. It wouldn't magic the cash.

[s8film40]

Re: Monorail Teal..

This is why I suggested the Monorail System should be sold to RCID. For a company like Disney it's hard to justify spending that kind of money on something that doesn't directly effect profits. Whereas RCID approaches everything from a community perspective, looks at things more long term, and doesn't have to generate a profit. Also while I don't know how much tax money they actually receive everything they do seems to be very well funded.

[lazyboy97O]

Re: Monorail Teal..

This is why I suggested the Monorail System should be sold to RCID. For a company like Disney it's hard to justify spending that kind of money on something that doesn't directly effect profits. Whereas RCID approaches everything from a community perspective, looks at things more long term, and doesn't have to generate a profit. Also while I don't know how much tax money they actually receive everything they do seems to be very well funded.

RCID only has one primary source of tax revenue, Disney. Also, by selling it to a public body Disney now has to make all of the monorail pilots and maintenance staff employees of the District. There are plenty of other issues that would come into play. It would end up just costing Disney more money.

[Imagineer Scott]

Re: Monorail Teal..

So based on that, the Haneda monorail packs more people daily, and the busses take the top spot. Way to go for the ghetto busses used at WDW!!!

ghetto? They seem pretty reliable and nice to me....

If Tokyo used the buses I bet they'd be terrific and efficient and just what TDR needs... :lol: