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  • Coheteboy
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    This forcing you speak of is exactly why WDW isn't the world class resort it deserves to be.

    When Walt Disney had plans for Walt Disney World, he did not want a Disneyland East. He wanted Walt Disney World to be even MORE unique than it has become.

    Leave a comment:


  • disneyfann121
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    Oops. Looks like the Thread Killer strikes again!

    Leave a comment:


  • disneyfann121
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    Fascinating discussion. Just a quick point: I don't think that Orlando management is doing a bad job overall, but their penny pinching and stinginess is too often a reflex. As Angie_Duke noted, Disney's head office had to force Orlando management to go ahead with the Fantasyland expansion. They also had to force them to accept Star Tours II -- and then Orlando wanted to go with a watered down version! Lucas refused, so they are going ahead with the full blown ST II.

    Again, if it wasn't for others forcing them to do the right thing, they would be happy to do things on the cheap -- or not do them at all. Thankfully, we don't have an Eisner in charge, encouraging this kind of short term thinking b.s.

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  • Lightning509s
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    Even Roy Disney, may he rest in peace, was well aware of the parks declining back in 03'...Quote:

    After years of dissatisfaction with Eisner's leadership and the company's lagging stock price, Disney and Gold resigned their board seats in 2003 and launched a shareholder revolt.

    In his resignation letter, Disney called for Eisner's ouster, complaining that on his watch the company's standards had declined, particularly at theme parks like California's Disneyland and Florida's Walt Disney World.

    "The Walt Disney Company deserves fresh, energetic leadership at this challenging time in its history just as it did in 1984 when I headed a restructuring which resulted in your recruitment to the company," Disney wrote to Eisner.

    Initially rebuffed, Disney rallied small investors and enthusiasts who responded to his folksy complaints about peeling paint at the theme parks and his anger at being told he would have to leave the board because he was too old.

    Roy, you will be missed greatly. Here's hoping Mr. Iger and John Lasseter will continue to grow your families great legacy...
    Last edited by Lightning509s; 12-16-2009, 12:53 PM. Reason: correction

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  • Lightning509s
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    It's quite apparent that Kevin Yee's latest blog "Less The Season" touches on the very context of what this thread was started for.

    I'm very much starting to wonder if the Disney Company is actually looking to partner away WDW in the same manner that TDL, DLP, HKDL and the just announced Shanghi Disneyland parks are actually operated by someone else with the Disney Company satisfied to accept licensing royalties.
    Last edited by Lightning509s; 12-15-2009, 05:58 AM. Reason: spelling error

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  • Mickeys_Mate
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    Yes so they have not done alot for along time but there is no way other disney venues can beat WDW
    Money is also a problem , they cant come up with new stuff everday .
    Yeh so they might not be doing as much as they COULD but they have a lot to of people to impress....WDW is amazing in anyway

    Leave a comment:


  • Coheteboy
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    Originally posted by Airamerica View Post
    I'm not sure that this analogy works... Walk around Universal and compare it with WDW - apart from being newer, there isn't that much difference between the parks. There just isn't!
    That's what it's come to. There was a time when anything Disney did would squash Universal in every category!

    How many times have Universal's restaurants won "best theme park restaurant" in the past 10 years vs WDW?

    You'd think WDW was the winner. Nope. It's Universal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Airamerica
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    Originally posted by Coheteboy View Post
    My expectations of WDW are of the same of any Disney park and I know that they aren't being met. That is the true reality at WDW. It's a shame.

    ...now with that said, it doesn't mean that people still can't go and have a great time. But to use that as an excuse that they're not doing a bad job is laughable.

    A lot of the issues we have brought up aren't factors of "fun" like you keep defending. They're factors of quality.

    I can eat at McDonald's and get my money's worth on food and be really full.... but I know for sure that the quality ain't there. But I already know that going in to a McDonald's.

    Now... if I were going to a fancier burger chain... let's say In n Out or FatBurger or Five Guys Burger and Fries (not sure what you guys have in florida). Let's say I ordered a meal.

    What if:
    -The bun was stale and dry. piece of the burger meat missing. imitation cheese instead of the real thing. and no sauce because... economy and all. I can probably still eat that and be full. But wow, I sure noticed the quality and experience drop.


    But that analogy I just made doesn't mean anything to someone who has never eaten a burger before. The tourists that go to WDW probably have never been to another Disney park before so they have nothing to compare with.

    But to everyone else, the decay and lack of upkeep is very apparent.
    I'm not sure that this analogy works... Walk around Universal and compare it with WDW - apart from being newer, there isn't that much difference between the parks. There just isn't!

    I've got an idea to really bring WDW up-to-speed lets close it all down and start again, rip out the MK first and rebuild it. It won't inconvenience any guests, as there won't be any for 3 years while it's all done.

    Then, when it re-opens with designs and technology, which are already 3 years old all the new guests will be blown away by its atmosphere and the 'older' guests can complain that it's already 3 years old!!!

    Hang on, isn't that happening today - the new guests are blown away and many others (on here) are complaining that it's nearly 40 years old. So, on reflection lets keep it as it is - with far fewer problems than people perceive.

    Leave a comment:


  • Coheteboy
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    Originally posted by Airamerica View Post
    I'm beginning to wonder about people's expectations, versus the true reality at WDW.
    My expectations of WDW are of the same of any Disney park and I know that they aren't being met. That is the true reality at WDW. It's a shame.

    ...now with that said, it doesn't mean that people still can't go and have a great time. But to use that as an excuse that they're not doing a bad job is laughable.

    A lot of the issues we have brought up aren't factors of "fun" like you keep defending. They're factors of quality.

    I can eat at McDonald's and get my money's worth on food and be really full.... but I know for sure that the quality ain't there. But I already know that going in to a McDonald's.

    Now... if I were going to a fancier burger chain... let's say In n Out or FatBurger or Five Guys Burger and Fries (not sure what you guys have in florida). Let's say I ordered a meal.

    What if:
    -The bun was stale and dry. piece of the burger meat missing. imitation cheese instead of the real thing. and no sauce because... economy and all. I can probably still eat that and be full. But wow, I sure noticed the quality and experience drop.


    But that analogy I just made doesn't mean anything to someone who has never eaten a burger before. The tourists that go to WDW probably have never been to another Disney park before so they have nothing to compare with.

    But to everyone else, the decay and lack of upkeep is very apparent.

    Leave a comment:


  • Angie_Duke
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    I've had enough of Fantasmic! too, but that is beside the point. A precedent was set by Disney to offer the show nightly and then they cut it (and 4 isn't "a couple" last time I checked) and bad things have happened as a result for Disney*. Saying it's "of little consequence to me" just makes you look selfish and truly ignorant about the situation.

    I also don't see how faux rock and concrete crumbling is "returning to nature" in the case of River Country or the unfinished half of Pop Century. If Disney really wanted to help nature they'd tear down what is now useless construction work and let nature do the rest.

    *Not only is revenue lost from dinner package sales (the marginal cost of operating those 3 restaurants in unaffected by whether or not the show is done), but sales of those light up toys and concessions done for the waiting crowd in the theater and in the rest of the park is affected.

    Leave a comment:


  • Airamerica
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    I'm beginning to wonder about people's expectations, versus the true reality at WDW.

    Clearly, we all want a fulfilling and memorable experience and it's obvious that the 'details' are important to some people - having said that, how closely you examine the 'details' varies from person to person.

    Removing a few Christmas lights seems of little consequence to me, as does shutting down an overrated, underwhelming show for a couple of nights a week. Yes, I really don't think that much of Fantasmic!

    The stark facts are that people have an overwhelming choice in the US and across the world and at this point millions of visitors continue to visit and revisit WDW - the suggestion that any medium / long term effects of re-budgeting are being seen in falling attendance numbers can't be justified.

    Looking back through my most recent video (September) and pictures (November) I can't hear any negative comments from guests entering the parks and I simply can't see massive degradation of the facilities in the pictures. This compounds my own belief that I've not witnessed anything traumatic across the property. Indeed, missing a few Christmas lights doesn't rock my world and reminds me that people often don't like change!

    When I get on the monorail at TTC, the facilities are still clean and well staffed. When I approach any front gate the buildings look fresh and the landscaping neat and tidy. Walking around the parks it seems like most of the cast are happy and helpful and there is still an efficient litter removal policy - that most cities would envy.

    The rides are running, more often than not... The anamatronics are a lottery but I can excuse that due to the repetitive nature of their movements - but they seem to be repaired frequently and have never detracted from my enjoyment of the ride.

    I am mindful that the estate is getting on for 40 years old and is maturing better than many people could ever hope for. Sure their are a few aches and pains but generally it's looking very good.

    In the areas that have been left alone, I'm happy that they are returning to nature - the old Discovery Island and River Country... 2 relics of a by-gone era that many recent guests just see as plots of 'natural' land, nothing more.

    Like I said, it comes down to expectation and every few years WDW adds something new or takes something away that shifts expectation - that's what it's all about. I think we could argue this all day and we'll never agree, i'm always going to be behind management on this one!
    Last edited by Airamerica; 12-04-2009, 01:26 AM.

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  • Coheteboy
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    ^right. I have never been to Christmas in WDW, but If I were to do so, I'd be doing some research on WHY this would be a good idea. To discover that shows have been removed (and Pleasure Island torn down) are more than enough reasons for me to NOT go to WDW until they DO add something in.

    WDW is not a small trip. It's a big investment and Disney needs to treat the resort as their guests would. It's a big deal. Any cut no matter how justified is still a cut. When you have enough of them, it's painfully obvious.

    Leave a comment:


  • Angie_Duke
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    ^ I'm a tad confused by the point begin brought up (feel free to rephrase it, I'd like to know!) but I'll say this.

    Just how many people have not seen LoW is irrelevant. The APers, Locals, DVC owners and what not, have come to expect some sort of display in that spot as it's existence in length have made it some sort of tradition. How acceptable is this "show" to these people? Even in the park people are pointing out and noticing that it's gone and the hits on Disney's offical blog for this decision are still happening. While IMO the displays should be updated to make them look superior and I have no emotional attachment to this, the fact that litterally hundreds have unaimously been upset by this decsion speaks volumes about it's imporatnce to Epcot. Especially when Holiday Illuminations no longer exists, Christmas music isn't played as much and the Santa displays have been scaled back in size. If Disney truly wants the return crowds they can't do things like this as this move has proven to cause quite a PR mess.

    Attendance for this holiday season will be very interesting indeed.

    Ignorance on "newbies" is justified for the cuts. Just like CBJ Christmas and other holiday removals. However just how great is ignorance in a day when the internet provides plenty of documentation on the existance of the display? A person seaching for info on Allearsnet.com, , WDWinfo.com and so forth is likely to find out something about LoW when searching for info on WDW at Christmas.

    Again this was a cut to save money, but even when WDW was hard hit by the post 9/11 decline in toruism, they still did the display. Same with other now removed Christmas offerings.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thorpeedo
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    Originally posted by Angie_Duke View Post
    Pathetic. Your defending the removal of something with no replacement whatsoever? I agree with Coheteboy, your outright scary. I hope you don't treat your health or home with the same expectations you have for WDW.
    It's all about "show"...provided the overall "show" is acceptable to enough people then the atendance and business model will work. We have a changing populace, and a more global market (till oil runs out!) and it just might be the right business approach to change the balance between show and cost, drop standards a slight amount to make a significantly more robust business. Walt clearly believed that to cut any corners would backfire and hence he didn't. He must however have accepted that things could be cut without enough detriment to show though. Failure of some animatronic elements are ride closers, and others are "acceptable". I Think this policy dates from his time. I'm sure I'll be corrected if need be

    Sorry, on this one I have some sympathy with Airamerica. You don't miss what you never had ... and for the majority of guests this is absolutely appropriate. You do have to look at the larger picture. The excuse for removal, blaming obsolete technology is utterly farcical. How old is the wheel, it still works ! I can't imaging the savings by not putting the lights up is prohibitive.

    You could probably see a link that shows the spending of billions in Anaheim is causing budgets to be "relatively" cut in WDW. There is a further argument that it's not a decline because new stuff in WDW replaces what is removed, even if it's not directly visible. They closed the land pavillion down, but opened Everest. The 2 probably aren't linked on any plan opr balance sheet, but you could probably have a ghood game balancing new against old and saying what "replaced" what. It would be interesting to know overall theoretical capacity over the recent years, as that will tell you if things have remained stable, shrunk or grown.

    Now people are thinking that I'm defending decline, I'm absolutely not, if something is open, then it should look and operate to a maximum quality, or be closed, cleaned up and the new "show" should overtake the closure (hide traces, or replace whatever was removed, or tidy it up to look deliberate).

    Regarding the monorails, I didn't notice any smell in September, but if there's a need to replace parts, then it should be in the maintenance budget. Ignoring things that need sorting and waiting for a magic Bullet to replace all the trains leaves them in a poor state and therefore reduces the show and should not be allowed to happen.

    People will pay for "built in Freebies" like the monorail, but when the premium is being payed for, but not delivered people will vote with their feet. Given the reputation of the place and the expense and therefore aspirational nature of visiting for many folk, there may still be a willing line of first timers for now, but eventually they will run down, and if you're not getting repeat visits, or people recommending a visit to to others, then trouble really starts. I said earlier that people will not necessarily notice why they are falling out of love with the place or why it doesn't seem as good as the reputation said it would be. Nobody will point exclaim "that's it, dead bulb, flakey paint, I'm not coming back till it's fixed", but a build up of this subtle failure to deliver the premium will over time affect the reputation, attendance and therefore the balance sheet.

    I've been the victim of a soundtrack element that wasn't working in the Diorama on Ellens and it should have closed the ride in my opinion, the disappointment was massive, I knew what was wrong, but there were people that were just utterly perplexed. I understand why people on here want to see things right every time
    and standards at a premuim. I made a point of letting my nephew know about some of the things that normally pass you by so he could appreciate the quality. Anything that is not working but should be, reduces the show, and they should be working to correct it. That said I do appreciate that there are times, like with Everest, where to repair the Yeti will cost a relative fortune, and the "is it really worth it" argument carries weight. Obviously I'd love to have ridden it properly...but had to accept what was there !

    I suspect that what looks good on a balance sheet now will have somebody in 10 years time trying to repair the reputational damage !

    Leave a comment:


  • Thorpeedo
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    Originally posted by Figment Fan View Post
    I have to disagree with you here. The monorail service is not free. It is built into the cost of the ticket, as are the rides and shows.
    I have to agree with your disagree

    Leave a comment:


  • Angie_Duke
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    Originally posted by Airamerica View Post
    Is the removal of the Lights of Winter going to have any material effect on WDW guests... No, people who have seen them before, have seen them before and the guests that haven't seen them won't miss them.
    Pathetic. Your defending the removal of something with no replacement whatsoever? I agree with Coheteboy, your outright scary. I hope you don't treat your health or home with the same expectations you have for WDW.

    Originally posted by Airamerica View Post
    Fantastic was similar to Lights, Camera, Action! It wasn't full for every single show and reducing it's operational frequency make sense - you will always receive some complaints, as a small minority are inconvenienced by missing the show when they are in the park... Again, good management by Disney.
    Do you even pay attention to what others have pointed out? Disney is LOSING money because nobody is justifying spending time in the park at night. There are 0 sales of the Fantasmic! Dinner package on nights where the show isn't offered for example (along with any other logical drops in concession sales) and they are looking at bringing the show back to a nightly run like it has been for the prior 10 years because of the negative economic effects of dropping those shows. If it was a "good" management move, they wouldn't have shoehorned in extra performances to meet demand during the year. Not to mention, what about the employees who have lost work as a result of the "good move"? And a "small minority" (where do you get your info?) do not cause line ups to last for hours at Guest Relations.

    You are the only person who has ever had the gall to defend this move which even Disney has clearly regretted doing.

    The show is going to be nightly next week, are you going to cristicze Disney for making this "poor" decsision?

    Originally posted by Airamerica View Post
    As for Stitch's Great Escape, be careful what you wish for... The 2 previous shows in this building were far more controversial and split opinion much more than this attraction - Disney bowed to guest pressure to make a change, this is the result. A child friendly, child orientated use of very good theatres that didn't need to be changed!!!!
    Look at reviews conducted by surveys for the Unofficial Guide. The numbers showed that despite complaints, AE was better recived on average, and kids are still upset by the replaceemnt. Even the Official Guide to WDW can't give the show a "Birnbaum's Best" like they did AE. And AE is besides the point. They could have made a great Stich attraction, but they didnt.

    Originally posted by Airamerica View Post
    Stitch's Supersonic Celebration - BTW, I never saw the the show. So, I can't comment. It was clearly bad. However, this doesn't reflect on budgets or the management team, more the creative directors on site and their ability to come up with a decent show. The management did build a purpose built stage for this and find the talent to perform (however badly), so the money was there!
    Money was there but watsed, as imlied in your post. How is that a good example of WDW not screwing something up?

    Leave a comment:


  • Figment Fan
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    Originally posted by Airamerica View Post
    I think everyone should concentrate that this service is free - imagine the complaints if people had to pay - then again, it might mean people respect them more!

    I have to disagree with you here. The monorail service is not free. It is built into the cost of the ticket, as are the rides and shows.

    Since their park is detached from the ticket center and parking lot, and they would not tolerate masses walking up the roadway to get to the park, they have to provide some way to the park. They could not even try to charge a fee to get you from the parking lot to the park. It wouldn't fly.

    Leave a comment:


  • Coheteboy
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    Originally posted by Airamerica View Post
    Given the prevailing economic conditions and the huge challenges facing an employer / business in this marketplace it is just amazing that WDW continues to be operated at the very, very high standards that 95% of guests enjoy. As for the other 5%, well let them moan and let them post (on here) because we know they will either relent and come back or be superseded by new guests - it's the way of the world.

    Where do you get these numbers? Your idea of high standards is incredibly skewed... borderline blind, no offense. The way you're supporting of WDW's declining by degrees is scary.

    Yes, perhaps from a "cold hearted business" standpoint, they're doing enough to get by. But that's not how they should be operating. They should be the brand LEADER, not follower.

    Just look at the slate of attractions added to WDW as of late. Midway Mania, Little Mermaid, Star Tours... ALL clones from Disneyland. When are they getting the next Mission:Space or Expedition Everest or Test Track? WDW is becoming old and tired before the new things are even added.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike Deep
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    Are the WDW monorails set for replacement soon? I've been trying to find anything regarding that, since it seems about due.

    Leave a comment:


  • Airamerica
    replied
    Re: Shame on Disney Company Management

    Originally posted by Mike Deep View Post
    At the very least, maintenance at WDW is falling embarrassingly behind. I think some of the best examples of this are the increasingly long in the tooth Mark VI's, whose cabins are looking like complete trash. They're filthy, the plastic walls and moldings are cracking and missing pieces, there are stains everywhere and the 80's carpet should just be ripped out in favor of something with zero absorbency.

    It's just the monorail, yeah, but I feel it's integral to the impression the resort leaves. Chances are a guest will see the inside of a monorail more than any other 'ride' Disney operates. Its often the first part of the experience at Disney, boarding the monorail and heading to your park. The monorails are the circulatory system of the original parks, and they're not looking healthy.

    The monorail at friggin' TPA was looking nicer when I rode it last weekend.
    This illustrates my point - to refurb the monorails would cost a significant amount of money at this stage... They have been running for nearly 20 years and are scheduled to be replaced completely in the near future.

    Management / accountants would have looked at the life-span of the rolling stock and determined how long they would stay in operation, as such a slush fund would be allocated to keep them on the beams but not to pay for refurbs after a certain age.

    I know that the state of the monorails interiors have concerned management for some time. I happened to ride from Epcot to TTC with a manger (they were transferring to the MK) and we were in a particularly poor carriage and it's state came up in conversation... Consequently, it turns out management are not blind and know that the problems persist.

    Having said that consider ANY other public transport system in the US, after nearly 20 years service how clean and new looking is their rolling stock... Not very! Not very, if the equipment is still being used and hasn't been phased out! Now consider what guests at WDW are doing while in the monorails, eating, drinking etc. with NO in carriage supervision.

    I think everyone should concentrate that this service is free - imagine the complaints if people had to pay - then again, it might mean people respect them more!

    Leave a comment:

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