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  • #21
    Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

    Responses in red.

    Originally posted by toonaspie View Post
    Potterland seems to the be the general drive behind the Fantasyland expansion.

    The Fantasyland Expansion is not a response to Potterland. The expansion addresses problems at the Magic Kingdom and isn't meant to be an attendance magnet.

    Honestly even if a 5th gate were built...I honestly dont know what theme ideas they would have left to go on. I actually think every grand idea under the sun has been done. And while a DisneySea park in the U.S. would be great...it would be too repetitive because of the World Showcase and Asian/African areas in DAK.

    If "every grand idea under the sun has been done" then there would not be a need for Imagineering. A few years ago there were at least three theme park concepts for WDW seen within WDI. It's not a stretch to believe that number has increased over the past few years. Either way, an aspect of DisneySea may be coming to Disney's Animal Kingdom in the near future. Not necessarily in theme, but in technical design.

    I agree that expanding the current parks is better though this might be a bigger challenge because of areas being closed off by nearby hotels or other facilities. They would have to tear out major roads just to add anymore land to Disney Studios. And the Yacht & Beach hotels are so close to the World Showcase area that adding new Pavilions would be a big challenge there as well. And there's also the massive water and animal facilities that surround Animal Kingdom.

    The Yacht and Beach Club would not have any effect upon new pavilions being added to World Showcase. Expansion at EPCOT or the Animal Kingdom is no problem. Expansions are ready to go. All it needs is some funding. The Studios doesn't have any expansion problems either. On Sunset Boulevard alone, three decent-sized plots exist within feet of each other. Removing roads or canals is something done in most construction projects at any park worldwide (i.e. Contemporary Annex for the Bay Lake Tour, drainage canal for Lights, Motors, Action!, Frontierland Railroad Station for Splash Mountain, etc.). It's not the amount of land that's the problem. It's who's paying for it.





    (Maps based on graphics by Martin Smith)

    It's easier for Imagineers to come up with new attractions than it is a new park. Any 5th gate as this point would be almost DCA in comparison to the parks already there.

    How would you know that if the parks haven't even been built yet? Have you seen the concepts yourself? I don't mean to come across as rude but it seems silly to make assumptions about something you haven't seen yet, much less something years away from ever getting off the drawing board.
    Originally posted by Meyers View Post
    Well, I guess the majority of posters feel there is no need for a fifth gate. I somewhat agree, but would like to mention that this opinion would have negated Disney/MGM Studios park. Why was anything more needed than the Magic Kingdom and EPCOT Center? Afterall, Universal Studios was already movie-themed park for Orlando. Duplication.

    Michael Eisner has gotten a lot of bad press, but he did build two new parks for WDW and what I think is the most beautiful Magic Kingdom of all. I have had the fortune to visit the Paris park.

    If WDW is stagnant, then maybe a new full-day park is what might help increase tourism to see something new and extend stay.

    I'm sure Harry Potter will attract more people to Universal.

    I like the DisneySea idea, nix Villains. I also like the Superheros concept along with aviation/space/sci-fi.

    Just my opinion.
    I respectfully disagree. Though the parks hit their prime during the early part of Michael's administration, as his tenure went on it seems he started micromanaging the parks more. On the opposite end of the spectrum, he installed Paul Pressler and Cynthia Harris, whose names are something of taboo for Disney fans.

    Also, there are many plans on the drawing board for the park that are waiting to hit the greenlight...Pixar Place expansions, attractions at Japan and Germany, Imagination v4, Adventureland and Tomorrowland refurbishments, Ellen's Energy Adventure refurbishment, expansions at the Animal Kingdom. Expanding on the current parks would put WDW in a much better fiscal state than building a fifth park while leaving their other parks out to dry. Nothing attracts more guests than a new attraction.

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    • #22
      Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

      One of the areas I noticed at WDW that might be a location for a 5th gate would be where the golf club/course is located west of the Magic Kingdom and near the Grand Floridian.

      Any thoughts?

      Viewing this area from the Contemporary in 1998 seemed feasible and would better balance the parks. Monorail might even be extended if not too great a distance, maybe less than one mile.

      Comment


      • #23
        Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

        Originally posted by Meyers View Post
        One of the areas I noticed at WDW that might be a location for a 5th gate would be where the golf club/course is located west of the Magic Kingdom and near the Grand Floridian.

        Any thoughts?

        Viewing this area from the Contemporary in 1998 seemed feasible and would better balance the parks. Monorail might even be extended if not too great a distance, maybe less than one mile.
        I don't believe that area is a site for a new park. However, the area north of the Grand Floriidian was/is planned for expansion of Seven Seas Lagoon, and if I'm not mistaken the area in the northwest corner of the property may be designated for a new park.

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        • #24
          Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

          Interesting you heard that the northwest property area might be a site for a new theme park. If combined with the golf course, there would be plenty of space.

          Does anyone have aerials of this section of WDW?

          Thanks, if you do.

          Comment


          • #25
            Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

            Originally posted by Meyers View Post
            One of the areas I noticed at WDW that might be a location for a 5th gate would be where the golf club/course is located west of the Magic Kingdom and near the Grand Floridian.

            Any thoughts?

            Viewing this area from the Contemporary in 1998 seemed feasible and would better balance the parks. Monorail might even be extended if not too great a distance, maybe less than one mile.
            One problem with using this area is Shades of Green. That resort is now owned by the Department of Defense and has been de-annexed from the Reedy Creek Improvement District.

            Aerial imagery can easily been seen via Google Maps/Google Earth or Bing Maps.

            Comment


            • #26
              Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

              Seems like a lot of posters are concerned about maintenance and expansion of the four existing parks. And that there aren't enough attractions in them. How many is enough? I still think a 5th gate would have a positive impact. It has been 12 years since a new park was opened, about the same amount of time between DHS and DAK, even less between EPCOT and DHS.

              Almost any park will touch on themes of another park. Not a reason to fourgo building it. I like the DisneySea concept and something new like an aviation/space/sci-fi idea which Disney could pull off similar to DisneySea.

              What's bigger than sci-fi? I don't think Stitch and Star Wars covers it enough. Pandora calling.

              Some concept plans will be presented soon.

              Comment


              • #27
                Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

                I still feel a 5th gate would not exactly be the best move financially for WDW. There are lots of attractions to be added and improved upon atm. Turn AK into a full day park, then talk about a 5th gate.


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                • #28
                  Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

                  Originally posted by lazyboy97O View Post
                  When EPCOT Center opened in 1982, people extended the length of their vacations to Walt Disney World. When the Disney-MGM Studios opened in 1989, people extended the length of their vacations to Walt Disney World. When Disney's Animal Kingdom opened in 1998, people did not extend the length of their vacations to Walt Disney World. Sorry, but there would have to be a greater shift in how Americans vacations in order to justify a fifth park. A new park would just be ignored or distraction people from spending as much time in the existing parks. A boutique park could work, but not a standard theme park.
                  I think there's a bit more to the not extending stays than "AK didn't draw in more people" First off that was around the time Disney changed to the MYW system, it encourages you to stay longer by front-loading the tickets but also has a huge drawback, the 10 day limit for domestic travelers.. If you want to stay more than 10 days you either have to by 2 MYW tickets (price jumps up again when you hit that 11'th day...) or an AP. Doing away with the length of stay ticket and the new price structure raised prices. Add the events of 9/11 and it's negative impact on tourism and the parks have been maintaining popularity though the deep discounts and promotions.

                  The new Art of Animation Hotel is a good sign that things are starting to pick up, hopefully if they achieve sustainable attendance with fewer discounts the focus will shift back to in park development without pressure from corporate.

                  Originally posted by Krankenstein View Post
                  FLE wasn't TDO's idea, it was forced on them by Glendale.
                  Yes and leaking the plans and gauging the rumor mill response was a great move on their part.


                  There are places for expansion in all four parks, look at how creative Disneyland is with their limited space... As far as adding annother park in the MK area I don't think that would work in the spaces mentioned. Fist off the Shades of Green (old gold course resort) is not Disney owned & Operated, it's run by the Department of Defense and is the site of two of thier championship gold courses. The area north of bay lake is set aside for wetlands preservation, it could possibly be re-designated but not likely and it's really not that large of a space. If you check it out on Google earth there's also existing improvements and roadways right behind it.

                  Only a fraction of the land is developed right now, there is plenty of space to add a 5th gate but I agree it's probably going to be a few more years before they do, there just isn't the numbers of gusts or dollars coming in to justify that level of expansion right now.

                  What they need more than anything is more rooms in the Value and Moderate resorts for larger families. The AoA resort that's designed to replace the second half of the Pop century is a good start. Lets see if they can drop the price of the family suites to less than the cost of 2 rooms and I think they will have something there.
                  Hi I'm Jerren and I'm a Disneyholic...

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

                    Originally posted by Meyers View Post
                    Seems like a lot of posters are concerned about maintenance and expansion of the four existing parks. And that there aren't enough attractions in them. How many is enough? I still think a 5th gate would have a positive impact. It has been 12 years since a new park was opened, about the same amount of time between DHS and DAK, even less between EPCOT and DHS.
                    It'll be enough expansion when people would make their stays longer just to see the new park.

                    Originally posted by Jerren View Post
                    I think there's a bit more to the not extending stays than "AK didn't draw in more people" First off that was around the time Disney changed to the MYW system, it encourages you to stay longer by front-loading the tickets but also has a huge drawback, the 10 day limit for domestic travelers.. If you want to stay more than 10 days you either have to by 2 MYW tickets (price jumps up again when you hit that 11'th day...) or an AP. Doing away with the length of stay ticket and the new price structure raised prices. Add the events of 9/11 and it's negative impact on tourism and the parks have been maintaining popularity though the deep discounts and promotions.
                    Another factor is American vacationing habits. Our vacations are just not as long as the traditional European vacation. The average stay is still in the five day range. More visitors need to stay longer to make a new park work.

                    There are places for expansion in all four parks, look at how creative Disneyland is with their limited space... As far as adding annother park in the MK area I don't think that would work in the spaces mentioned. Fist off the Shades of Green (old gold course resort) is not Disney owned & Operated, it's run by the Department of Defense and is the site of two of thier championship gold courses. The area north of bay lake is set aside for wetlands preservation, it could possibly be re-designated but not likely and it's really not that large of a space. If you check it out on Google earth there's also existing improvements and roadways right behind it.
                    The Department of Defense, via the Army Corps of Engineers, also does get a say in wetlands development within the United States. Plans that could mire the Shade of Green experience could always end up tangled in red tape.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

                      Originally posted by inluvwithbeast View Post
                      I still feel a 5th gate would not exactly be the best move financially for WDW. There are lots of attractions to be added and improved upon atm. Turn AK into a full day park, then talk about a 5th gate.
                      I agree with this. Expand AK there are a lot of possibilities there and then a 5th park can be discussed.

                      The reason AK did not change the amount of time people spent in Disneyworld is because it is not a full day or really even a multiple day park. When it is expanded to be one then it will add on to peoples stay at Disney.
                      BGood! It's not just my motto its my name!

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                      • #31
                        Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

                        Originally posted by mickdaddy View Post
                        I agree with this. Expand AK there are a lot of possibilities there and then a 5th park can be discussed.

                        The reason AK did not change the amount of time people spent in Disneyworld is because it is not a full day or really even a multiple day park. When it is expanded to be one then it will add on to peoples stay at Disney.
                        Although looking at the competition, the Universal parks (with their paid Fastpass system) don't even add up to a full day park together. I knocked the major attractions in both of those parks out (some more than once) in 2.5 hours during Spring Break of 2009.

                        But Disney should still really focus on expanding DHS and AK before they worry about a fifth park, especially because there are plenty of ideas that are on the drawing board for BOTH parks that could use monetary resources before they need to worry about building a fifth park.

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

                          Originally posted by SeaCastle View Post
                          Disney's current initiative is to expand overseas. In the near future, at least, a new park will not be built (not to say concepts don't already exists, but as mentioned here previously, there is not much of a need.) The existing parks will be plussed (and their problems, such as the Animal Kingdom's and Studio's lack of attractions, be solved) before a fifth park is built.
                          Disney needs to stop expanding overseas right now. They need to work on plussing Hong Kong Disneyland BEFORE they can even think about another location.



                          Originally posted by Meyers View Post
                          Well, I guess the majority of posters feel there is no need for a fifth gate. I somewhat agree, but would like to mention that this opinion would have negated Disney/MGM Studios park. Why was anything more needed than the Magic Kingdom and EPCOT Center? Afterall, Universal Studios was already movie-themed park for Orlando. Duplication.

                          Michael Eisner has gotten a lot of bad press, but he did build two new parks for WDW and what I think is the most beautiful Magic Kingdom of all. I have had the fortune to visit the Paris park.

                          If WDW is stagnant, then maybe a new full-day park is what might help increase tourism to see something new and extend stay.

                          I'm sure Harry Potter will attract more people to Universal.

                          I like the DisneySea idea, nix Villains. I also like the Superheros concept along with aviation/space/sci-fi.

                          Just my opinion.
                          To answer your DHS question, Universal was a threat to Disney World at the time, and profits for the company were dwindling, so Eisner felt it was appropriate to create another theme park. The park was then too small, and Disney felt the only way to expand was with thrill rides, hence Star Tours , ToT, and RnRC came along. While all great rides, the theme of DHS isn''t coherent anymore.

                          To escalate your Superheroes idea, I did kind of kick around the idea of a theme park based on all kinds of heroes ala Islands of Adventure (Detectives, Superheroes, Myths/Legends, Real Life Heroes), but it probably wouldn't work.


                          AUTOPIA: Fan Since 1991

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                          • #33
                            Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

                            Originally posted by Twist_of_Fate View Post
                            Although looking at the competition, the Universal parks (with their paid Fastpass system) don't even add up to a full day park together. I knocked the major attractions in both of those parks out (some more than once) in 2.5 hours during Spring Break of 2009.
                            Now I'm curious, what do you consider the major attractions there? If you did it in 2.5 hours I'm assuming you skiped all the shows and several of the slower ones like Poseidon's Fury, Jaws, Twister, Shrek etc, and just hit the coasters... And I'll assume the new rip ride rocket didn't break down every 10 minutes like it was last February....

                            But I agree, with the front of the line access you can hit all the rides and attractions there in 2 days not sure about 2.5 hours I guess if you didn't see the shows or eat you might be able to do it but that's not for me. I enjoy taking my time guess I'm just getting old... But I did ride the Mummy 3 times in a row last trip with the Gals from the agency so I guess I'm not that old yet... :ap:
                            Hi I'm Jerren and I'm a Disneyholic...

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                            • #34
                              Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

                              I would love a 5th park but it's not feasible right now. Staffing it would be a major issue.

                              What I would like to see done first is to shore up DHS and DAK and of course, improve EPCOT. My first hope is a new land at DAK that can keep people at the park until 9 at night. Meaning it isn't totally animal oriented. With Universal getting Harry Potter, how about buying the rights to a Lord of the Rings world? Call the area Middle Earth and have The Shire, towers of Mordor, etc. To tie in the "animal" aspect of the kingdom, they can have animatronics of the animals of middle earth if they feel that's necessary. I want to see a few Ent animatronics that talk to you! If they did a Lord of the Rings section, I could see the park being packed. Then again, the Tolkien estate is a hard one to deal with. So besides that being my "blue sky" prospect, the other options that I've heard about are an Australia section and of course the dead "Beastly Kingdom" concept that I would love.

                              At DHS, I really think they are moving in the right direction. The rumored Monster's Inc addition to Pixar Place would help a lot. I'm at the point that I think the Backlot Tour is so bad that it should be closed. A lot could be done if they closed down LMA and the BackLot Tour. For just aesthetics sake, get rid of Sounds Dangerous and put something there. haha

                              As for my favorite park, I really want a new country added to World Showcase and at least add one more attraction in World Showcase. Put a few stores in Canada as well. It looks run down. Future World really needs a Figment refurb, a complete removal of HISTA, and the reopening of the Wonders of Life pavilion with something done to it.

                              If it took 10 years for all these things to happen then maybe in 20 years we might need a 5th park.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

                                Originally posted by Rocker View Post
                                Disney needs to stop expanding overseas right now. They need to work on plussing Hong Kong Disneyland BEFORE they can even think about another location.
                                Not to be TOO much of a jerk, but last time I checked Hong Kong Disneyland IS overseas...

                                And on the note of a fifth gate: although a brand new park seems fun and exciting I do not believe that it would bring in enough guests, they need to spruce up what they have a bit, and expand what they have instead of saturating it with a new gate. I'll admit I used to be on the "Bring TDS to the states" band wagon. But not so much anymore, I think I rather appreciate the uniqueness of that park. Although I do think some attractions may integrate well into current parks. (somewhat contradictory, I know) It's kinda like Syndrome on The Incredibles, "If we are all super, then nobody would be super." (I'm sure I messed that quote up.)
                                He felt like his life was some kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.
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                                • #36
                                  Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

                                  Originally posted by Jerren View Post
                                  Now I'm curious, what do you consider the major attractions there? If you did it in 2.5 hours I'm assuming you skiped all the shows and several of the slower ones like Poseidon's Fury, Jaws, Twister, Shrek etc, and just hit the coasters... And I'll assume the new rip ride rocket didn't break down every 10 minutes like it was last February....

                                  But I agree, with the front of the line access you can hit all the rides and attractions there in 2 days not sure about 2.5 hours I guess if you didn't see the shows or eat you might be able to do it but that's not for me. I enjoy taking my time guess I'm just getting old... But I did ride the Mummy 3 times in a row last trip with the Gals from the agency so I guess I'm not that old yet... :ap:
                                  Rocket wasn't open yet (=(), but yeah, I skipped most of the shows. Not so much because of being a thrill ride junkie but because they just really didn't appeal to me. Jaws broke down and ate up a lot of time because of it. Poseidon's Fury wasn't open, and I was bummed. However, I did waste time doing some things more than once (after you go once with the express pass, you can't use it at that attraction anymore), but here's my list.

                                  Universal Studios:

                                  Jaws
                                  The Simpsons Ride
                                  Revenge of the Mummy (twice)

                                  I got out of this park pretty quickly to go to Islands of Adventure. I know I skipped some "major" stuff, so I guess I should retract my remark, but I'm serious about the 2.5 hours.

                                  Islands of Adventure:

                                  The Incredible Hulk (3 times)
                                  Dr. Doom's FearFALL (3 times)
                                  Spider-Man
                                  Dudley Do Right
                                  Jurassic Park
                                  Dueling Dragons (Just once, terribly long line)

                                  Skipped Seuss Landing.

                                  I realize a 20 year old blasting through the parks isn't your typical theme park goer, but I could have definitely added the slower rides/attractions and a couple of the shows to that and probably still have done it all between open and close.

                                  But, like I said, fairly atypical. I could have slowed it down if I had longer.

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                                  • #37
                                    Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

                                    I hate to say it, but I sure hope there isn't anytime soon. I love WDW dearly, but until they up the level of care and detail in ALL the parks 1000% and expand upon them, I'd rather they didnt spend the money. If only TDO could keep moving out of this rut moving towards the 50th... They could have a MAJOR campaign like they did for Disneyland's 50th. Could put new attractions, plussings, and areas in each park. New entertainment, Beastly Kingdom (not going to attempt to remember how to spell it), Western River Expedition? Who knows. Just that kind of stuff. Build quality and it will sell itself.
                                    Matt!

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                                    • #38
                                      Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

                                      Originally posted by Epcot2000 View Post
                                      I hate to say it, but I sure hope there isn't anytime soon. I love WDW dearly, but until they up the level of care and detail in ALL the parks 1000% and expand upon them, I'd rather they didnt spend the money. If only TDO could keep moving out of this rut moving towards the 50th... They could have a MAJOR campaign like they did for Disneyland's 50th. Could put new attractions, plussings, and areas in each park. New entertainment, Beastly Kingdom (not going to attempt to remember how to spell it), Western River Expedition? Who knows. Just that kind of stuff. Build quality and it will sell itself.
                                      As much as all the parks need some love and have some room, I think Animal Kingdom is DESPERATE in terms of needing a couple of new rides, including one that can keep people busy and help with crowd control. Furthermore, I think such an expansion would help Animal Kingdom be more of a full day park and maybe end up with hours to reflect that.

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                                      • #39
                                        Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

                                        WDW is all about cheap value hotels, not theme parks. The priority is about how to extend their value guests' visits as opposed to how to improve quality all around. Remember, great gifts come in small packages. WDW is a huge package of 'air" quality, as opposed to "solid" quality. A 5th park at WDW would have to be at the same quality level of Tokyo DisneySea, or else.. it will be another mediocre DCA type park with a different theme to it.

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                                        • #40
                                          Re: Fifth gate for WDW?

                                          I"ve never been too keen on Animal Kingdom as a concept. First, I think it was partly done to inhibit people from visiting Tampa's Busch Gardens with its animals.

                                          Second, there really weren't that many buildings or attractions to start. Mostly just landscaping. Walkways were too narrow. River ride was very lame in 1998. I can't believe the park cost so much and Disney got so little.

                                          I somehow felt the animals were being exploited by Disney to sell souvenirs. Guess this would be true of zoos too.

                                          It would take a lot of attractions to make DAK a full day park. Compare how many experiences to the Magic Kingdom.

                                          However, I do think the Lodge was a good idea and being able view the animals up close from your room rather unique. Conservation message is fine, but low-key.

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