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  • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

    Originally posted by Taggart View Post
    Me response to this is that in this entire conversation, not a single person has mentioned something Disney has done correct in the modern era.

    You're obviously not reading.


    Originally posted by Coheteboy View Post
    The recent additions that I enjoyed in WDW were Tower of Terror (1994), Rock'n'Roller Coaster Starring Aerosmith (1999), Mission Space (2003), and Expedition Everest (2006).



    But really... what is the point of pointing out the things they did right? I've been doing it the entire thread and you've read between the lines each time.

    Something done right: TOKYO DISNEY SEA

    WDW isn't even CLOSE. Disneyland is closER, but not of that level either. So what is it that the Stateside parks are NOT doing right? Read the thread from the beginning and you might find the answers.


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    • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

      Originally posted by Coheteboy View Post
      You're obviously not reading.
      And you obviously don't realize that you and I were posting at the exact same time. I'm typing these responses from a phone.

      But, I digress, my wording was off. I should not have said "Everyone." I do understand there are differences in opinion. I should have said "What seems like a vast majority." And thank you for bluntly correcting me. You brought up another good point of topic.

      Here is a question, and if it comes off as rude or snarky, I'm not asking it right. I just want to observe.

      Most people here would say that Tokyo Disney Sea is "Done right." Of the people who are saying this, how many of you have actually been there and experienced the attractions there? Do you say this because of multiple factors that, for you, make the attraction that much better than what we have here domestically, or are you purely speaking on the amount of detail alone?

      I guess my reasoning in asking this is that I am trying to figure out which criteria the majority of Disney fans use to pass judgement on an attraction. Does detail and cosmetial properties carry more weight? Does the story play a role? A combination of the two? Exotic experience versus a known story? Think about it and be honest - what really drives impact and what do you find arbitrary?

      Keep in mind, be honest and curteous as someone reading this may find it useful....

      ...
      Last edited by Taggart; 07-03-2010, 06:26 PM.

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      • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

        Originally posted by Taggart View Post
        Does detail and cosmetial properties carry more weight? Does the story play a role? A combination of the two? Exotic experience versus a known story? Think about it and be honest - what really drives impact and what do you find arbitrary?
        Very few, if any, theme park attractions are telling complex, deep stories (i.e., we're not talking Atlas Shrugged or The Deer Hunter). Most are just simple, fun, fantasies or adventures where the guests (a)survive something gone wrong, (b) explore an out-of-the-ordinary world, or most often, a combination of (a) & (b). So this is the key:

        Execution.

        A simple concept/idea/story executed superbly makes for a classic theme park attraction or land. Great execution comes in the form of great design, little surprises, and detail, detail, detail (among other things). For example, by 1994 The Twilight Zone was culturally irrelevant. Yet Disney dusted off a decades old TV show that most of the current generation of youth had barely heard of and created one of the greatest and most popular attractions of all time.

        I posted this earlier, but look at the difference in execution of these similar concepts and it will tell you what makes a superior theme park attraction/ environment:

        A Pooh-based Dark Ride:



        ***

        An Arabian-themed Area
        http://albums./album2...lace.sized.jpg


        ***

        A Mediterranean-themed Hotel:



        ***

        A Fairy-tale Castle:
        http://china.axitrip.com/files/2009/...ment-park2.jpg
        http://www.idea-sandbox.com/blog_ima...ris_castle.jpg

        ***
        A Medieval Village:
        http://mrwilliamsburg.files.wordpres...lliamsburg.jpg


        ***

        Like everything in life... it's all in the execution:

        http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Revie...low-Poster.jpg
        http://kimdy.gri.re.kr/others/entert.../0-poster1.jpg

        http://images27.fotki.com/v1020/phot...ldgNYNY-vi.jpg
        ]http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/attachments/hot-zone/46216d1213193547-abu-dhabi-buy-chrysler-building-biz039.jpg
        Last edited by penguinsoda; 07-09-2010, 07:47 AM. Reason: Hotlinked images, against site rules

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        • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

          Originally posted by RandySavage View Post
          Very few, if any, theme park attractions are telling complex, deep stories (i.e., we're not talking Atlas Shrugged or The Deer Hunter). Most are just simple, fun, fantasies or adventures where the guests (a)survive something gone wrong, (b) explore an out-of-the-ordinary world, or most often (c) a combination of the (a) & (b). So this is the key:

          Execution.

          A simple concept/idea/story executed superbly makes for a classic theme park attraction or land. Great execution comes in the form of great design, little surprises, and detail, detail, detail (among other things). For example, by 1994 The Twilight Zone was culturally irrelevant. Yet Disney dusted off a decades old TV show that most of the current generation of youth had barely heard of and created one of the greatest and most popular attractions of all time.

          I posted this earlier, but look at the difference in execution of these similar concepts and it will tell you what makes a superior theme park attraction/ environment:

          A Pooh-based Dark Ride:



          ***

          An Arabian-themed Area
          http://albums./album2...lace.sized.jpg


          ***

          A Mediterranean-themed Hotel:



          ***

          A Fairy-tale Castle:
          http://china.axitrip.com/files/2009/...ment-park2.jpg
          http://www.idea-sandbox.com/blog_ima...ris_castle.jpg

          ***
          A Medieval Village:
          http://mrwilliamsburg.files.wordpres...lliamsburg.jpg
          http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4094/...5fa5ec53fc.jpg

          ***

          Like everything in life... it's all in the execution:

          http://www.thealmightyguru.com/Revie...low-Poster.jpg
          http://kimdy.gri.re.kr/others/entert.../0-poster1.jpg

          http://images27.fotki.com/v1020/phot...ldgNYNY-vi.jpg
          http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forum...ing-biz039.jpg
          Again brilliant, and spot on.
          Last edited by penguinsoda; 07-09-2010, 07:49 AM. Reason: Hotlinked images in quote
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          • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

            I tried to read all the posts but I am really running out of time here.

            IMHO, WDW is responding to WWOHP; just not with an attraction or area (I really think the Fantasyland expansion is unrelated).

            What do I think the response is? The new Animation Resort. That's right. A value hotel. To convince those who want to come see WWOHP that they can stay at WDW affordably. Get them to part with most of their money on resort and go to see Harry for a day or two of their (typically) week's vacation.

            Just a thought...

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            • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

              Originally posted by perfectparanoia View Post
              I tried to read all the posts but I am really running out of time here.

              IMHO, WDW is responding to WWOHP; just not with an attraction or area (I really think the Fantasyland expansion is unrelated).

              What do I think the response is? The new Animation Resort. That's right. A value hotel. To convince those who want to come see WWOHP that they can stay at WDW affordably. Get them to part with most of their money on resort and go to see Harry for a day or two of their (typically) week's vacation.

              Just a thought...
              Disney already has three Value Resorts. Even then, they have been working for years to make it a pain to get to and from other area attractions from Disney. I think the new resort has more to do with the continued slump of guest spending. If people think they are saving on a Disney room, they may be more willing to spend a little more on Disney merchandise or be talked into buying a package that does not offer non-Disney days.

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              • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                OK, took me a week to catch up with this thread and actually read the posts before I commented..

                What Disney seems to be doing wrong in my opinion is forcing the character's more and more down people's throaghts, Like someone said many a page ago it used to be where you would only really see character's rides in Fantasyland, now they're everywhere, and the effect is starting to become (at least in my opinion) overwhelming, don't get me wrong I don't mind and I enjoy going on a character dark ride every now and again, but when all of a sudden I'm playing find Jack Sparrow in PoC, or seeing all the Disney Characters all brazenly (sometimes without even trying to be subtle about it) in It's a Small World, it starts to take away from my overall experience..It's cool when my little one's see some new detail on those two rides every now and again, and now that they're distracted that's pretty much gone, maybe if the characters weren't forced into every nook and cranny possible would I find seeing that subtle hidden mickey that much more exciting...

                It really makes you pause (at least it does for me) when they start doing things like that, and think "Ok I'm going to buy the shirt with mickey and the gang on it anyways, can you just stop putting him everywhere please?" Seriously other than that stuff, and I understand that WDI and Disney as a whole was probably listening to the average consumer say "WE WANT JACK SPARROW IN POC" I thought it would have been pretty cool to have Sparrow and Barbossa in one or two seens on the ride as well, or creating two new AIs of them dueling, seems like it would have been more subtle and look alot cleaner than hearing all the AIs go "Where's Sparrow?" every 30 seconds..

                And Overall I still enjoy my WDW experiences I just think that they've started to become more and more commercialized as time goes on...and that decreases the magic alittle bit for me at least...

                But as a whole I like some of the things that they've done in recent times ToT is by far my favorite ride, Rockn Rollercoaster is cool(even though I can't ride it with my little ones yet) same with Mission Space and Test Track...I enjoy all of those rides immensely, but I also think that sometimes there could have been a bit more detail in some of the themed areas, I haven't seen the fog effect on at ToT since the first year I've ridden it, AK still is a half day park for my family even though we do do the shows and that so there's a whole boatload of untapped potential there...I can go on and on with stuff that they have done right and stuff that they've pardon my french half-assed in the past 2 decades, but much of it has already been said..and my peace being said, I'll now retreat back into my dark corner and lurk some more
                The test of success is not what you do when you are on top. Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.
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                • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                  So when was the last time you saw lines like this at WDW?

                  http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg687/sca...=640&ysize=640

                  http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._4526763_n.jpg

                  http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media...6/54407903.jpg

                  http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media...6/54407873.jpg

                  http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media...6/54408201.jpg

                  http://www.orlandosentinel.com/media...6/54408252.jpg

                  Hat tip to the Orlando Sentinel for the photos.
                  Last edited by penguinsoda; 07-09-2010, 07:50 AM. Reason: Hotlinked images, against site rules
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                  • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                    Dapper Dan is right about story, as several folks online have said for some time. It was never the focus for Marc Davis and other early Imagineers, but in the Tony era it's been the supreme focus.

                    Eric-formerly-known-as-OFT (EFKAOFT): amazing pictures! I'm glad I soaked in Potter a few times during soft openings!!
                    Kevin Yee
                    MiceAge Columnist

                    I am the author of several Disney books:
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                    • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                      IMO why would you want to see lines like that at WDW? I don't think that would leave me wanting to go back or would give me an optimal guest experience.

                      I'm looking forward to Potter, and we're planning on seeing it in October, but if I saw lines like that I would turn around and leave, no matter where it was, or how good the attraction was. That kind of line doesn't seem like it would be good for anyone. Talk about out of towners who are there for WoC and it gets cancelled, what about out of towners making a trip and planning to head to IOA for that day? Seems like their experience is ruined.

                      Sorry for the interruption of the thread, but I just can't comprehend that being a beneficial line for anyone. Not meant to say Potter is better or worse, just an observation.
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                      • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                        Originally posted by yoyoflamingo View Post
                        IMO why would you want to see lines like that at WDW? I don't think that would leave me wanting to go back or would give me an optimal guest experience.

                        I'm looking forward to Potter, and we're planning on seeing it in October, but if I saw lines like that I would turn around and leave, no matter where it was, or how good the attraction was. That's just idiotic to wait in that kind of line.
                        The funny thing is... even with the crazy lines and the 16 hour wait, it still got good reviews.
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                        • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                          HOLY CRAP ... look at those lines!!!

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                          • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                            Originally posted by KingEric View Post
                            The funny thing is... even with the crazy lines and the 16 hour wait, it still got good reviews.
                            I agree, and within 1 day lines were normal, but still, to waste a whole day waiting in line for ONE thing?
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                            • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                              Originally posted by yoyoflamingo View Post
                              I agree, and within 1 day lines were normal, but still, to waste a whole day waiting in line for ONE thing?
                              If that is your passion. Last time I heard of lines like this was when DLR opened Star Tours. Legend has it, that the park stayed open for 24 hours so they could get everyone through.

                              It comes down to the fact that people are passionate about this world and these character. SOOOO much more than what Disney has been able to offer sadly.
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                              • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                Originally posted by KingEric View Post
                                If that is your passion. Last time I heard of lines like this was when DLR opened Star Tours. Legend has it, that the park stayed open for 24 hours so they could get everyone through.
                                That is correct, I was there.

                                But I didn't wait 16 hours. I believe the wait was about 4-5 hours.

                                I think Star Wars was about as popular then as Harry Potter is now.

                                As far as the imagineers, and the fact that this is just a "Land" ...

                                The popularity (and awesomeness) of Potterland proves to me one thing ... IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN A COMPLETE PARK ... NOT JUST AN "ISLAND".

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                                • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                  Originally posted by KingEric View Post
                                  If that is your passion. Last time I heard of lines like this was when DLR opened Star Tours. Legend has it, that the park stayed open for 24 hours so they could get everyone through.

                                  It comes down to the fact that people are passionate about this world and these character. SOOOO much more than what Disney has been able to offer sadly.
                                  But if they are passionate about the characters, then isn't the review system flawed to begin with for that day? Not saying that Potter isn't an amazing attraction because I am sure it is, but can you really rely on people who waited 16 hours to ride because of their Potter love as a reliable source of info? If we put average guests in that line and had them wait, would there be a different reaction to it?

                                  Still, the ride would get great reviews, but I'm sure they would be "It's great, but I wouldn't wait more than an hour or two to get in."

                                  Again, not agreeing or disagreeing, just think it's not the best group to judge. It's like asking the people who saw Twilight at midnight if it was a good movie. Seems the people staying up that late will like it no matter what, regardless of its quality

                                  I am a Harry Potter fan, and I'm a huge Disney fan (obviously), but I still don't think I would say a ride is great after waiting 16 hours for it. Could the reviews also be cut to "It was Great!" right before the "It was GREAT! But not worth 16 hours of waiting!"

                                  I can see waiting MAYBE 2-3 hours for something you love, but over that? No way, no matter how good.

                                  And wasn't Indy at 5 hours when it first opened at DL? Even that to me is excessive...

                                  Again, no bashing Potter in any way, as I'm looking forward to it! :P
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                                  • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                    I think Imagineers have the ability, we'll have to see how Mystic Manor compares on a ride by ride basis. I agree with an earlier poster though, Star Wars needs a heavier presence then just Star Tours because its probably one of the strongest franchises.

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                                    • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                      Originally posted by yoyoflamingo View Post
                                      But if they are passionate about the characters, then isn't the review system flawed to begin with for that day? Not saying that Potter isn't an amazing attraction because I am sure it is, but can you really rely on people who waited 16 hours to ride because of their Potter love as a reliable source of info? If we put average guests in that line and had them wait, would there be a different reaction to it?

                                      Still, the ride would get great reviews, but I'm sure they would be "It's great, but I wouldn't wait more than an hour or two to get in."

                                      Again, not agreeing or disagreeing, just think it's not the best group to judge. It's like asking the people who saw Twilight at midnight if it was a good movie. Seems the people staying up that late will like it no matter what, regardless of its quality

                                      I am a Harry Potter fan, and I'm a huge Disney fan (obviously), but I still don't think I would say a ride is great after waiting 16 hours for it. Could the reviews also be cut to "It was Great!" right before the "It was GREAT! But not worth 16 hours of waiting!"

                                      I can see waiting MAYBE 2-3 hours for something you love, but over that? No way, no matter how good.

                                      And wasn't Indy at 5 hours when it first opened at DL? Even that to me is excessive...

                                      Again, no bashing Potter in any way, as I'm looking forward to it! :P
                                      Your critique of the review system is fair. But the same must be applied to hardcore disney fans.

                                      One might say us hardcore disney fans are THE MOST critical because we have such high expectations.

                                      You know as well as I know how easy it is to get nitro hyped up, and follow construction of a project for YEARS and then on opening day have it disappoint, because the hype could never live up to the reality.

                                      Very recently think.... World of Color. The reviews on micechat/miceage are great examples of that.

                                      In WDW history think Spaceship Earth refurb, think Pirates refurb, think Seas with Nemo and Friends, think Monsters Inc Laugh Floor, think Stiches Great Escape... Are characters or attractions that we are endeared to, that we are fans of, were huge disappointments when they opened to the fan community.

                                      So to get glowing reviews from the harshest critics really is a big accomplishment.
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                                      • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                        Originally posted by KingEric View Post
                                        Your critique of the review system is fair. But the same must be applied to hardcore disney fans.

                                        One might say us hardcore disney fans are THE MOST critical because we have such high expectations.

                                        You know as well as I know how easy it is to get nitro hyped up, and follow construction of a project for YEARS and then on opening day have it disappoint, because the hype could never live up to the reality.

                                        Very recently think.... World of Color. The reviews on micechat/miceage are great examples of that.

                                        In WDW history think Spaceship Earth refurb, think Pirates refurb, think Seas with Nemo and Friends, think Monsters Inc Laugh Floor, think Stiches Great Escape... Are characters or attractions that we are endeared to, that we are fans of, were huge disappointments when they opened to the fan community.

                                        So to get glowing reviews from the harshest critics really is a big accomplishment.
                                        Then it depends on the age level of the fans, as well as their level of expectation.

                                        Disney has 50+ years of experience in the theme parks which was their benchmark for excellence, since there is nothing to compare this too, it's a little harder to judge. While Disney has been "declining by degrees," IOA seems to be moving up in its attraction roster.

                                        Also, are the reviews from the same age group as hardcore Disney fans who have studied the company, history, etc, or rabid fanboys who like it because Potter's name is on it? (Disney still has people who like Great Escape, Monsters Inc, etc.; Fanboiis who love it all because of the name). Something tells me any hardcore Disney fan, minus the fanboiis, won't wait 16 hours for anything...
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                                        • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                          I just think that the Imagineers can beat the living daylights out of WWoHP ANYTIME. But the biggest obstacle to that is MONEY which Disney doesnt want to part with. Look at DisneySEA, essentially the same people designed that park who also probably designed DCA, and HKDL and the reason why DisneySEA stands out is because they had enough money to develop their ideas into reality.

                                          Originally posted by sir clinksalot View Post
                                          That is correct, I was there.

                                          But I didn't wait 16 hours. I believe the wait was about 4-5 hours.

                                          I think Star Wars was about as popular then as Harry Potter is now.

                                          As far as the imagineers, and the fact that this is just a "Land" ...

                                          The popularity (and awesomeness) of Potterland proves to me one thing ... IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN A COMPLETE PARK ... NOT JUST AN "ISLAND".
                                          A Star Wars land would draw many more people (its STAR WARS for gods sake, the biggest movie franchise on earth including merchandise) and much longer lines than the WWoHP in my opinion BUT Disney wont do that because they're so obsessed with the fact that everyone likes princesses and meet and greets. Instead of milking their princesses, Disney can use STAR WARS but its so sad that it doesnt.

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