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  • #61
    Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

    Originally posted by Coheteboy View Post
    We all know that sequels not only need to be bigger, but they need to be better. WDW sure is bigger and offers a lot of hotel options and different parks.... but for the money you pay to stay there all week... are you REALLY getting that much better of an experience? That's my key point here. Disney used to be THE ABSOLUTE BEST in the business and if they can't even compete with their sister in Anaheim as far as QUALITY goes, there's a lot more problems than you nor I can even imagine.
    I don't think you can throw around the word "quality" like that. What is quality, other than the ability to draw guests into the parks and keep them entertained?

    The argument has no end, so there's no point in having it. A DLR supporter says "your ride clones are inferior," while a WDW supporter retorts, "well your castle sucks." There's no end.

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    • #62
      Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

      Ok after a few years absence, I have to comment. Dusty is 100% correct. WDW has some major issues. There are a lot of really interesting Orlando survey's going around, and it seems that WDW has spent most of it's good will over the past 10 years, and that enthusiastic evangelical vacation experiences at the WDW Resort are becoming fewer and fewer, and now that people who grew up with the USO parks are getting older and having children it seems that the scales are beginning to even out a bit.

      I miss knowing everything that is going on in Orlando, but I still try to keep my fingers on the pulse of Orlando and Vegas.
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      • #63
        Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

        Islands of Adventure rethemed one island from generic fantasy to a specific fantasy franchise. Disney followed suit by updating their oldest Fantasyland. Maybe if Universal turns the Marvel island to Transformers Island the Magic Kingdom can get an actual Tomorrowland, one about the future, that they can then clone in California.

        The resort has a lot of problems as Dusty has pointed out. However instead of new rides and expansion, I think they should first focus on maintenance and transportation.
        It bothers me when people selectively edit quotes to support whatever point they are trying to prove.
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        • #64
          Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

          Originally posted by Fish_in_water View Post
          we have our own ghost mirror scene, and the queue and pre-show experience [of the DCA Tower] is top notch.
          Ehh... that's debatable. The whole queue of the DHS Tower is through the gardens and facilities while a large part of the DCA Tower is switching back out on the street, I'm pretty sure. And the lobby shown in the video in the Library is the one in the DHS Tower, not the DCA Tower. So one can't say that DCA didn't cut corners, too.

          (Actually, I don't think anybody has EVER said that DCA didn't cut corners...)

          Originally posted by Coheteboy View Post
          There are threads asking if DHS is a full day park yet... TWENTY years after it opened. Animal Kingdom has been opened 15 years ish and people still claim about it's untapped potential.
          More like 12 years. But I agree. It makes me wonder if we should even have these two parks that still aren't developed. If we had less parks, would more get done?

          I also wonder- What would be more important to do first: Should we start by fixing and refurbishing things? Should we fix Tiki Room and Great Escape and such? Or should we start building out again?
          -Hale (wumbology)

          a.k.a. h2mc, omnimover.mousetalgia, omnimover, wumbology, hogbackmtn, hhmcsharry, Hale M., h2m, h2mc

          (I've never visited Disneyland Resort, Tokyo Disney Resort, Disneyland Resort Paris, nor Hong Kong Disneyland Resort, so don't be fooled when I pretend to know what I'm talking about. [But I'm pretty good with the information, if I do say so myself. And you can hit me all you want with Walt Disney World.])


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          • #65
            Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

            Originally posted by wumbology View Post
            ....
            I also wonder- What would be more important to do first: Should we start by fixing and refurbishing things? Should we fix Tiki Room and Great Escape and such? Or should we start building out again?
            Wumbology, I humbly state that you are underestimating the issue here. Dusty did a phenomenal job outlining the issue.

            The job is resort wide, not just attraction wide. WDW spends in excess of over 500 million a year in marketing the property. The maintenance budget for the Parks are around 100 million a year.

            There is so much that goes into what this property is, and there is so much that is waste... I support the completely re-organize WDW school of thought.

            They should have taken the down years after 9/11 to do this, but instead they cut guest experience.

            Then when they cut TDO positions back in 08/09 they cut a lot of the positions that were guest experience focused and special event focused.

            I honestly and truly don't know exactly how I would re-organize the property if I was in charge, because in the end you can't close WDW for a week, and hit the reset button, this all has to be on in an operation that truly never stops.
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            • #66
              Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

              Originally posted by KingEric View Post
              Wumbology, I humbly state that you are underestimating the issue here. Dusty did a phenomenal job outlining the issue.
              Well, of course.

              It's a shame that Walt Disney World has been left to go stagnant after all of its successes.
              -Hale (wumbology)

              a.k.a. h2mc, omnimover.mousetalgia, omnimover, wumbology, hogbackmtn, hhmcsharry, Hale M., h2m, h2mc

              (I've never visited Disneyland Resort, Tokyo Disney Resort, Disneyland Resort Paris, nor Hong Kong Disneyland Resort, so don't be fooled when I pretend to know what I'm talking about. [But I'm pretty good with the information, if I do say so myself. And you can hit me all you want with Walt Disney World.])


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              • #67
                Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                I totally agree with the fact that, WDW should fix what they have before "NEW (cloned(lol)) E-TICKET", Think about lots of rides that need to be fixed before a new one is built:

                -space needs a new track (i know they updated the Queue, aint gonna cut it)
                -buzz needs a paint job.
                -jungle cruise needs better jokes, and better queue (why is the queue so long? they even have bigger boats)
                -tiki room needs to be not under new management.
                -stitch needs to go. badly.
                -toontown needs updating and enlargment.

                i think there are more still inside the MK.

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                • #68
                  Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                  Originally posted by wumbology View Post
                  Well, of course.

                  It's a shame that Walt Disney World has been left to go stagnant after all of its successes.
                  How often are you people at WDW where it could possibly get stagnant? I'm 21 years old, been to WDW six times, and I have the time of my life each and every time.

                  I know there are a ton of DLR AP holders in here who are at the parks every other weekend, but people have deep pockets indeed if they're spending enough time at WDW for it to get "stagnant".

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                  • #69
                    Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                    Originally posted by wumbology View Post
                    Well, of course.

                    It's a shame that Walt Disney World has been left to go stagnant after all of its successes.
                    Actually I take that back, I know exactly where I would start! I would try to get all the phenomenal talent back! I would raise the starting wage for front line CM's and aggressively fire, and hire.

                    I would make traditions a 3 day event again.

                    I would then begin to work on the parks infrastructure.
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                    • #70
                      Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                      Originally posted by wizards8507 View Post
                      How often are you people at WDW where it could possibly get stagnant? I'm 21 years old, been to WDW six times, and I have the time of my life each and every time.

                      I know there are a ton of DLR AP holders in here who are at the parks every other weekend, but people have deep pockets indeed if they're spending enough time at WDW for it to get "stagnant".
                      Oh, no! I don't mean "stagnant" as in "boring," nor "boring for me." I've been twice. I'd love to go any time I got the opportunity. I mean, it's a shame that WDW has been left to deteriorate to its current situation.

                      Then again, if WDW continues in the direction its going in, it may get very boring for many people, very soon.
                      -Hale (wumbology)

                      a.k.a. h2mc, omnimover.mousetalgia, omnimover, wumbology, hogbackmtn, hhmcsharry, Hale M., h2m, h2mc

                      (I've never visited Disneyland Resort, Tokyo Disney Resort, Disneyland Resort Paris, nor Hong Kong Disneyland Resort, so don't be fooled when I pretend to know what I'm talking about. [But I'm pretty good with the information, if I do say so myself. And you can hit me all you want with Walt Disney World.])


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                      • #71
                        Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                        Originally posted by wizards8507 View Post
                        I don't think you can throw around the word "quality" like that. What is quality, other than the ability to draw guests into the parks and keep them entertained?

                        The argument has no end, so there's no point in having it. A DLR supporter says "your ride clones are inferior," while a WDW supporter retorts, "well your castle sucks." There's no end.

                        You're merging the "cloned rides are inferior" into something else. Cloned rides are what WDW is getting for the next few years. In the case of cloned Little Mermaid ride, I'm gonna say that it'll probably be SUPERIOR to the original in CA because of where it's located (fantasyland). As for Star Tours, there's already reports saying that WDW doesn't want to spend as much for the upgrade so they're not getting the super amped up version. Whether that's true or not... we'll find out in a year.

                        Regarding Quality and Disney parks.. Disney used to invent the definition. Now it's being re-invented by Universal and Oriental Land. Disney needs to reclaim what quality really means.

                        Over the years, quality has reduced to "better than Six Flags".


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                        • #72
                          Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                          Originally posted by wumbology View Post
                          Oh, no! I don't mean "stagnant" as in "boring," nor "boring for me." I've been twice. I'd love to go any time I got the opportunity. I mean, it's a shame that WDW has been left to deteriorate to its current situation.

                          Then again, if WDW continues in the direction its going in, it may get very boring for many people, very soon.
                          Absolutely its a ton of fun, just kind of, hey that can have ALOT more fun at DLR because of one word: quality..

                          When you go to the buffet, you know the food isn't great, you can just get alot of it.

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                          • #73
                            Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                            Originally posted by Fish_in_water View Post
                            Absolutely its a ton of fun, just kind of, hey that can have ALOT more fun at DLR because of one word: quality..

                            When you go to the buffet, you know the food isn't great, you can just get alot of it.
                            I guess so. It's like: You can have fun at Six Flags. Or you can have fun at Disney's Hollywood Studios. Or you can have fun at Tokyo DisneySea.
                            -Hale (wumbology)

                            a.k.a. h2mc, omnimover.mousetalgia, omnimover, wumbology, hogbackmtn, hhmcsharry, Hale M., h2m, h2mc

                            (I've never visited Disneyland Resort, Tokyo Disney Resort, Disneyland Resort Paris, nor Hong Kong Disneyland Resort, so don't be fooled when I pretend to know what I'm talking about. [But I'm pretty good with the information, if I do say so myself. And you can hit me all you want with Walt Disney World.])


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                            • #74
                              Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                              Originally posted by wizards8507 View Post
                              How often are you people at WDW where it could possibly get stagnant? I'm 21 years old, been to WDW six times, and I have the time of my life each and every time.

                              I know there are a ton of DLR AP holders in here who are at the parks every other weekend, but people have deep pockets indeed if they're spending enough time at WDW for it to get "stagnant".



                              Here's an innocent question for you. Is Walt Disney World your only Disney experience?


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                              • #75
                                Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                Originally posted by wumbology View Post
                                I guess so. It's like: You can have fun at Six Flags. Or you can have fun at Disney's Hollywood Studios. Or you can have fun at Tokyo DisneySea.
                                Answer: you can have fun at all of those places, but the quality of your experience will differ.


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                                • #76
                                  Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                  As a Disneylander who is now a WDW annual passholder (since I am working in Orlando during the summer, but not at any theme parks), I enjoy visiting Disney World and definitely am glad I have the chance to enjoy as much as possible during the summer. Sure, Walt Disney World's size allows me to see much and has more unique attractions than Disneyland due to its size.

                                  However, I have to say that Disneyland has the edge in terms of quality.

                                  Sure, DCA doesn't have the best Tower of Terror, but hey, Tokyo DisneySea and Walt Disney Studios Paris have the same ride system because its more efficient and less prone to break down. Of course, Tokyo DisneySea has a completely different theme, but the ride works the same as DCA's, and they do have the mirror effect too. And definitely, I think the mirror effect is best implemented at DCA rather than WDW's Summer Nightastic overlay this summer. Also, definitely DCA has better cast members working TOT, as they tend to be more in character (they tend to reference the lights not working because of the storm before the preshow begins).

                                  I kind of feel that TDO is too content by the fact they have four parks and tend to be a destination resort, and before Universal had Harry Potter, they knew people would come to Orlando just for Disney World. Unfortunately, TDO needs to realize that more attractions are needed to bring people back.

                                  Meanwhile, TDA wants to become a destination resort rather than just a local theme park complex that people only visit for a day or two, so they know they need more attractions and more newer stuff to accommodate people and bring in more people. And of course, let's face it, TDA just has better management that is more focused on maintaining and enhancing Walt Disney's original Magic Kingdom.

                                  Also, I think the threat of Universal is a bit too overblown. I went to IOA last Sunday evening. And everything but Harry Potter had pretty short wait times according to the tip boards. Even Harry Potter wasn't that bad, the Forbidden Journey attraction only had a 45 minute wait the first time I rode it. The roller coasters in Harry Potter were a walk on. But then again, the shops and Ollivander's did have lines to get in.

                                  I have a feeling that the Magic Kingdom was definitely much more crowded that evening, such it was crowded the Sunday before. Then again, IOA doesn't really have nighttime entertainment, so they don't really have much way to retain people other than Harry Potter.

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                                  • #77
                                    Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                    Originally posted by Coheteboy View Post
                                    Here's an innocent question for you. Is Walt Disney World your only Disney experience?
                                    No, I've been to DLR twice. Once as a "destination" vacation and another time as a stop over on a different trip. I've yet to visit any of the foreign parks.

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                                    • #78
                                      Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                      Originally posted by Dustysage View Post
                                      Disney World is in much bigger trouble than the company or its shareholders may want to recognize. And the problem isn't really Universal or Harry Potter. It is Disney themselves. The company has let Walt Disney World decline, become stale, and has failed to invest in keeping the parks vital.

                                      While Disney made a calculated decision to ride out the economic slump by cutting costs and discounting, Universal used that time to their advantage by building the single best amusement park attraction ever (in the United States).

                                      The signs are now obvious that if the Disney Company isn't in a state of creative decline, its Florida property certainly is. The new Fantasy Forrest expansion to Fantasyland is nothing more than a tiny bandage on a much larger problem.

                                      The Magic Kingdom could use at least one MAJOR new E+ ride and several new family rides. It has far too many shuttered shops and restaurants. Epcot is in dire need of attractions in the World Showcase section of the park and some sort of cohesive theme in its Future World section. The Studios park is a total disaster, relying solely on Tower of Terror and the increasingly painful Rock'n Rollercoaster to pull in crowds. Only the Animal Kingdom has been showing progress, but even that park requires a major new land to help the park feel more like a full day experience.

                                      Disney World is a money pit at the moment. Why? Because the company failed to invest as necessary as it went along. And now that Harry Potter has made Disney World's failures obvious to the average visitor, it will be difficult for Disney to recover quickly. Especially if its management team continues to block all major progress and push for clones and character meet-n-greets instead of spending the billions it will take to fix Disney World. The budget allocated to fix DCA is nothing compared to what it would take to put a suitable amount of dazzle and magic back into Walt Disney World.

                                      Unfortunately, the new Fantasyland expansion will likely be a public relations backfire for Disney. Universal builds a MAJOR E+++ ride and land which is fun for the WHOLE family. Disney counter-strikes with a Fantasyland expansion targeted at 10 year old girls. Total misstep on Disney's part. I'm not saying that the Fantasyland expansion won't be lovely, but it certainly won't address the real problems at the resort. It is a cheap attempt to fix a problem which it doesn't even come close to addressing.

                                      I feel terrible for the Imagineers who work so hard to present wonderful ideas which continue to get shot down by clueless theme park management. But one or two amazing new rides is NOT what Disney World needs at the moment. It needs a major comprehensive redevelopment plan on a massive scale. Everything from resort transportation, entertainment zones, theme park redevelopment, and staff member training should be included. And those in Orlando management who stand in the way should be very quickly swept aside. The next manager who cheerfully presents PowerPoint slides showing how much money was saved by incrementally cutting food portions or delaying maintenance should be thanked for their time and then fired. Disney World needs to refocus from an organization 100% focused on the bottom line into one which focuses instead on quality of show. It is one thing to overcharge for a product which is clearly better than what anyone else is capable of offering and quite another to overcharge for a product which it is increasingly difficult to justify its sliding level of quality.

                                      Disney world has too many MBAs and not enough creative types. And that will ultimately be its undoing, not Universal and their AMAZING, inventive, and star quality Harry Potter land.

                                      Disney World CAN be fixed, but it will take far more effort than I fear its management or the Disney Company is willing and able to provide.

                                      Where is the Oriental Land Company when you need them?
                                      I agree with much that has been posted in this thread; there is a lot of room for improvement at WDW. But if all we do is criticize, there is a danger that Disney will tune us out. It's well known that Disney insiders read these boards, and often, when something about the resorts gets a lot of criticism, the company gets to work on them. Will that continue if they end up dismissing us as a bunch of whiners and complainers?

                                      Look, I'm not saying that these boards should contain nothing but Disney cheerleading. Everyone is free to express their views, but sometimes people exaggerate or overstate things in order to make a point. If what you're saying comes off as unfair, it will likely be tuned out, and then you're just preaching to the choir -- not to the guys who can make actual changes within the company.

                                      For example, I agree with a lot of what Dusty said in his post above, but some things he said were a bit overboard. DHS is a "total disaster"? Seriously, how many people would agree with that? Yes it has flaws, but it also has a lot of good shows and rides (although it could use a few more of the latter). Does that make it a "disaster"? He says it relies solely on TOT and RnR to draw the crowds, when, in fact, TSMM is easily the biggest draw in the park, and Fantasmic! is hugely popular as well. And Star Tours 2 next year will add another major new attraction (this is a sequel, not a refurb, so yes, it is new).

                                      He says that "Disney World is a money pit at the moment", which sounds totally wrong. Last I heard, WDW continues to be a money maker for the company, year after year, not a money pit.

                                      I don't want to single out Dusty; many posts on this site make the same mistakes (and some of mine, too). But such dubious statements may undermine the good points he makes, such as when he states "Disney World needs to refocus from an organization 100% focused on the bottom line into one which focuses instead on quality of show." I couldn't agree more. But again, the people who can make a difference may have already tuned out before getting to that statement, because they got turned off some of the overstatements.

                                      Another example is when people say things like "the bus service at WDW sucks." I was at WDW for a week in May of last year, and yes I did have to wait for the bus sometimes. Name me one bus service in the entire world where you never have to wait. Seriously, the bus service was pretty good overall, at a time when the resort was quite busy, and I never had such a long wait that it drove me to distraction.

                                      All I'm asking is that you think a little about what you're writing, and ask yourself if what you're saying is fair. Is it reasonable, or are you exaggerating and overstating in a fit of pique?

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                                      • #79
                                        Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                        To Disneyfann121, let me know when you board a bus with an annoyed cast member who chews out other drivers (out loud) and honks at them while tailgating. Let me know when you wait 30 minutes for a bus (after several busses for everywhere else has passed by twice) and when it finally shows up, it's full.

                                        Sure, it's not the worst but it could be LOADS BETTER. Disney needs to be LOADS BETTER.


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                                        • #80
                                          Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                          I've been to WDW many times and have only been to Universal on 3 of my trips to Orlando. I only get to Orlando about every 3 years so that really spreads out those trips I have done to Universal.

                                          I loved Spider-Man and think I rode it probably three times on my last trip there. I'm certainly looking forward to the Harry Potter attraction with all the praise it is getting, and having the knowledge of the type of attractions IOA has done. Any trip I make to Orlando, won't be extending days to go to Universal, but subtracting days that I would normally spend at WDW.

                                          On my last trip to WDW I refused to ride Space Mountain again with my friends because I thought it was that bad. I have said in the past I will never ride WDW's Space Mountain again until it is rebuilt, and as other attractions start showing their age, the same goes for them.
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