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  • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

    Originally posted by BigReid92 View Post
    I had this conversation with my friend who is employed at Walt Disney World(and she is not some cast member working the parking lot) but we discussed WWoHP and what would Disney do? She sent me a beautiful book on Walt Disney Imagineering(This an excellent book!) anyway as I have posted before the problem is not WDI but with management! WDI has so many concepts and the technology not to mention the money to do it! She said the money is there/budgeted to fund these projects. Disney is one of the most profitable corporations in the world and even at their worst they still making money, but they have been known to be frugal like Scrooge McDuck! The word around the Disneyworld cooler from what i've been told is "we have some work to do!" She said not only WWoHP is been discussed but even Legoland is being paid attention to! The Disney people have been getting a lot of feedback of their current rides and shows and from what they are hearing is not good especially from die-hard Disney fans! Disney have been getting by for years on "NOSTALGIA" and putting a band aid on useless refurbs. She said everyone including those at WDI is "ELATED" about the success of WWoHP because they are telling management "told you so, now you pay to let us play!"

    She said the the Fantasyland expansion was long planned before any WWoHP came into the picture but the one park that is going to get an extreme makeover is DHS and make it an all-day park! She doesn't know much about the proposed rides(top secret as it should be) but land has been cleared at DAK possibly for the Journey to the center of the earth which she said would make Harry hurl his butterbeer! I was told too that the AA development (which she claim she has seen is mindblowing) and WDI want to flex this on the Journey ride and a proposed revamped The Great Movie Ride!

    She closed with this... Management is not losing sleep about IOA/WWoHP they are "concerned". We'll see what they are going to!
    The "land being cleared" at DAK wouldn't happen to be the space behind Expedition Everest that has been confirmed to be a backstage service area, would it?

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    • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

      Originally posted by BigReid92 View Post

      She said the the Fantasyland expansion was long planned before any WWoHP came into the picture but the one park that is going to get an extreme makeover is DHS and make it an all-day park! She doesn't know much about the proposed rides(top secret as it should be) but land has been cleared at DAK possibly for the Journey to the center of the earth which she said would make Harry hurl his butterbeer! I was told too that the AA development (which she claim she has seen is mindblowing) and WDI want to flex this on the Journey ride and a proposed revamped The Great Movie Ride!

      She closed with this... Management is not losing sleep about IOA/WWoHP they are "concerned". We'll see what they are going to!
      While i know no one is loosing sleep....

      Actions speak louder than words. The announced fantasyland is much less than it was in the earlier phases (that were pre WWOHP).

      I personally like having my Orlando vacations be different experiences. When people ask me about visiting Orlando I always explain that it isn't Disney OR Non-Disney parks, they are not just interchangeable experiences.

      I think one of the beauties of Orlando is that you can keep visiting it, and experience all of these world class attractions. I often recommend people take a trip and not visit any of the Disney parks... I love SeaWorld... and BLUE HORIZONS oh so much.

      But I also recommend that people let the all encompassing nature of the WDW envelope them, and that they enjoy the complete WDW experience.

      Personally if I could rank Orlando experiences without any brand loyalty I would rank them as follows:

      1. Discovery Cove
      2. Disney's Animal Kingdom
      3. Islands of Adventure
      4. Magic Kingdom
      5. Epcot
      6. SeaWorld
      7. Universal Studios
      8. Disney Hollywood Studios
      9. Typhoon Lagoon
      10. Aquatica
      11. Blizzard Beach
      11. Busch Gardens

      So for me personally I cheer any major addition to the Orlando area.
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      • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

        Originally posted by Taggart View Post
        I am not saying that everything Disney has done is the best and greatest. I would be the first to admit there were many screw-ups and cheap routes taken over the years. 99% of the time that is not the fault of WDI.

        What I am trying to say is that Disney has the best collection of storytelling around. One land doesn't mean that Disney has been beaten. I guess if you compare just Florida parks one could say that IoA has comparable experiences, but just like iPhones, theme parks too are evolving, changing, getting better.

        Journey to the Center of the Earth and other similar rumors are not happening. But what IS being done... Well, in a few short years from now, it will be very clear that Disney is thinking entirely different than anyone else.


        If you're able to acknowledge that Disney hasn't been perfect the last 15 years or so, then we're in agreement. Nobody here is actually blaming WDI for any of this, as I've already written few posts above. It's finances, it's management, corporate, what-have-you.


        And certainly, one land does not mean Disney has been beaten in the long run, but in the United States Disney parks, to the mass public that does not know Tokyo Disney Sea even exists, to the tourists in the other countries who don't have Disney theme parks and only dream of Walt Disney World... then yes, Disney has been beat at their own game. In THIS round.

        The next round in Florida will be Star Tours and Fantasyland. People will still be comparing those offerings to Harry Potter whether you want them to or not. Is it fair? Absolutely. They're paying for a vacation and if they see very clearly that the experience at WWoHP is unmatched at any of the four disney parks at WDW, well... that's their right.

        WDW has had plenty of time to finish Animal Kingdom and Disney Hollywood Studios, but they didn't.



        It's a difficult battle with the hard core fans. They want the very best and if they don't get it for too long of a time or if they get a bunch of additions that aren't original to the resort, it starts to reflect how they feel about the company.

        I was at the D23 Expo last year and when they announced a brand new Fantasyland I said "what?! That's it?! One new cloned ride and an addition of an old ride? I'm sure the architecture and design will be beautiful but really... that's it?


        Disney World has a LOT to prove in the coming years to show their fans that they're willing to step up to the plate. If all that's coming in the near future are more meet & greets and rides being replaced with character overlays... people may hold their vacation to Orlando until they deliver.


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        • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

          Originally posted by KingEric View Post
          While i know no one is loosing sleep....

          Actions speak louder than words. The announced fantasyland is much less than it was in the earlier phases (that were pre WWOHP).

          I personally like having my Orlando vacations be different experiences. When people ask me about visiting Orlando I always explain that it isn't Disney OR Non-Disney parks, they are not just interchangeable experiences.

          I think one of the beauties of Orlando is that you can keep visiting it, and experience all of these world class attractions. I often recommend people take a trip and not visit any of the Disney parks... I love SeaWorld... and BLUE HORIZONS oh so much.

          But I also recommend that people let the all encompassing nature of the WDW envelope them, and that they enjoy the complete WDW experience.

          Personally if I could rank Orlando experiences without any brand loyalty I would rank them as follows:

          1. Discovery Cove
          2. Disney's Animal Kingdom
          3. Islands of Adventure
          4. Magic Kingdom
          5. Epcot
          6. SeaWorld
          7. Universal Studios
          8. Disney Hollywood Studios
          9. Typhoon Lagoon
          10. Aquatica
          11. Blizzard Beach
          11. Busch Gardens

          So for me personally I cheer any major addition to the Orlando area.
          Excellent post Eric. And as for the rating of attractions without any brand loyalty. I'm pretty close in my overall listing as well, with the exception that I have yet to visit Discovery Cove and therefore can't rate it. I might put EPCOT above Animal Kingdom for the superior volume of attractions and entertainment available. And I doubt that I'd even put Disney's Hollywood Studios on the top 10 at all. It isn't that entertaining of a park (at least for repeat visitors).
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          • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

            Originally posted by BigReid92 View Post
            I had this conversation with my friend who is employed at Walt Disney World(and she is not some cast member working the parking lot) but we discussed WWoHP and what would Disney do? She sent me a beautiful book on Walt Disney Imagineering(This an excellent book!) anyway as I have posted before the problem is not WDI but with management! WDI has so many concepts and the technology not to mention the money to do it! She said the money is there/budgeted to fund these projects. Disney is one of the most profitable corporations in the world and even at their worst they still making money, but they have been known to be frugal like Scrooge McDuck! The word around the Disneyworld cooler from what i've been told is "we have some work to do!" She said not only WWoHP is been discussed but even Legoland is being paid attention to! The Disney people have been getting a lot of feedback of their current rides and shows and from what they are hearing is not good especially from die-hard Disney fans! Disney have been getting by for years on "NOSTALGIA" and putting a band aid on useless refurbs. She said everyone including those at WDI is "ELATED" about the success of WWoHP because they are telling management "told you so, now you pay to let us play!"

            She said the the Fantasyland expansion was long planned before any WWoHP came into the picture but the one park that is going to get an extreme makeover is DHS and make it an all-day park! She doesn't know much about the proposed rides(top secret as it should be) but land has been cleared at DAK possibly for the Journey to the center of the earth which she said would make Harry hurl his butterbeer! I was told too that the AA development (which she claim she has seen is mindblowing) and WDI want to flex this on the Journey ride and a proposed revamped The Great Movie Ride!

            She closed with this... Management is not losing sleep about IOA/WWoHP they are "concerned". We'll see what they are going to!



            eh... I am skeptical of your friends comments. Everyone on here has a friend thats not just a nobody..... but Bob Iger has already stated that this rate of expansion within the WDC, including that of MK, DCA, and new ships boarders on crazy WILL tapper off and not continue. Thats my own summery of his lengthy comments on the matter and not a quote but still.... a list of major expansion projects being announced for WDW on the heals of Bob Igers very ON the Record comments about the current rate of expansion seem to contridict your friends thoughts.

            I would rate WDW as curious at best. I am in the school of thought that the WWoHP going not going to hurt WDW. Rather help it, it will help IOA / Universal for sure, but it will also bring a lot of visitors to the Orlando which WDW will not be hurt by. With only 2100 Universal on site hotel rooms, WDW with its 30K + on site hotel rooms is a very good position to have people plan an orlando vacation due to the opening of WWoHP but still stay at WDW with a day trip to IOA to see it.

            I hope that doesn't play out that way, but I suspect that it will. And as long as it does, you won't see any major shock and awe reaction coming from WDW. sigh. oh well.

            Comment


            • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

              Ok. I will say this again... The puzzle pieces are already out there. It's just that nobody has put them together yet. Those people who want to keep recycling rumors like new land in AK, Journey to the Center, Journey into Imagination, etc., are all thinking way inside the box still. Look around and think big! The future is just beginning.

              Also remember, just because you have seen some info about Fantasyland doesn't mean you have SEEN Fantasyland. Keep those hopes up!

              I would also argue that most people here are discussing the parks and their ratings based on entirely different criteria. To me, a good overall experience with superior placemaking and storytelling trumps photorealistic, uberdetailed scenery any day.

              Comment


              • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                Originally posted by Taggart View Post
                To me, a good overall experience with superior placemaking and storytelling trumps photorealistic, uberdetailed scenery any day.

                I don't think one can take one over the other for me. Having both is essential to the overall experience. To not want photorealistic, uberdetailed scenery is to deny some of things that has made Disney theme parks what they are today.


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                • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                  Originally posted by Coheteboy View Post
                  I don't think one can take one over the other for me. Having both is essential to the overall experience. To not want photorealistic, uberdetailed scenery is to deny some of things that has made Disney theme parks what they are today.
                  Exactly. Be it a half century ago or today, the thing that puts a Disney theme park land or attraction over the top is when it achieves the premiere "Disney level" combination of technology, artistry, attention to detail (photorealistic or fantasy), archetypes evoked, and story framing appropriate for the land and attraction (story framing, not necessarily literal three-act-structure storytelling). Park-wide, it also requires a balance of character based and non-character based experiences.

                  Drop the quality of any one of them to a noticeable degree, and the experience doesn't feel like a top quality Disney theme park experience. Drop several at the same time on the same attraction or in the same land, and the unique Disney signature fades as well -- leaving Disney's defenders to uphold its falling standards by citing its superiority to Six Flags.

                  Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 06-26-2010, 11:31 AM.

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                  • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                    And I might add that "superior placemaking"... doesn't that MEAN photorealistic uberdetailed scenery? Placemaking is just placemaking but when you add "superior"... well...i would automatically think that whatever is created is photorealistic and uberdetailed.


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                    • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                      Originally posted by Kidgenie View Post
                      eh... I am skeptical of your friends comments. Everyone on here has a friend thats not just a nobody..... but Bob Iger has already stated that this rate of expansion within the WDC, including that of MK, DCA, and new ships boarders on crazy WILL tapper off and not continue. Thats my own summery of his lengthy comments on the matter and not a quote but still.... a list of major expansion projects being announced for WDW on the heals of Bob Igers very ON the Record comments about the current rate of expansion seem to contridict your friends thoughts.
                      Regarding capital expenditures, it is my understanding that this is in reference to the Walt Disney Company as a WHOLE. Extrapolating this information to conclude that expansion/renovation at WDW will slow is risky. When you consider that the Disney Dream and the Disney Fantasy cruise ships are estimated to be one BILLION dollar investments EACH, WDC could actually INCREASE capital expenditures at the parks by $1.5 billion and see a 25% DECREASE in expansion expenditures.

                      Yes boys and girls, this means that Disney could build FIVE Wizarding Worlds of Harry Potter for 25% LESS than the new ships cost to build. The capital expenditures were HUGELY driven by investments in these ships, and simply completing those projects will free up a huge amount of capital for other things.

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                      • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                        Concepts do exist and they were originally planned to open up around this time to counteract the WWoHP. However, nothing is currently happening. Things are waiting the green, but I wouldn't expect them anytime soon.

                        No land clearing is happening at DAK. Both of the major expansion plots are already cleared from original park construction. Remember though, the Pocahontas show closing was suppose to coincide with construction on the original BK plot. Those plans were shelved.

                        Oh, calling Forbidden Journey a simple coaster is absolutely laughable. Nothing about it is even remotely like a coaster. Until you have ridden it, you cannot comprehend how unique and truly amazing the attraction really is.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                          Originally posted by Krankenstein View Post
                          However, nothing is currently happening. Things are waiting the green, but I wouldn't expect them anytime soon.
                          Sorry but on whom's authority do you have this information?

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                          • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                            Originally posted by wizards8507 View Post
                            Sorry but on whom's authority do you have this information?
                            Look take it with salt, but I have friends. That is all I will ever say on the matter because I like getting my info.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                              Originally posted by Krankenstein View Post
                              Look take it with salt, but I have friends. That is all I will ever say on the matter because I like getting my info.
                              That's fair. It's quite a challenge to distill the information from everyone who has "friends" when they're all saying opposite things. I doubt there's dishonesty anywhere along the line, but uncertainty breeds misinformation from all sides.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                Originally posted by wizards8507 View Post
                                That's fair. It's quite a challenge to distill the information from everyone who has "friends" when they're all saying opposite things. I doubt there's dishonesty anywhere along the line, but uncertainty breeds misinformation from all sides.
                                I really hope I'm wrong, but nothing is suppose to be coming in to at least after FLE. The only possible thing I have heard is that after ST2, they are going to look at possibly expanding Pixar Place, possibly.

                                And with that, I'm gone. Later MiceChat.

                                Comment


                                • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                  Originally posted by Krankenstein View Post
                                  Concepts do exist and they were originally planned to open up around this time to counteract the WWoHP. However, nothing is currently happening. Things are waiting the green, but I wouldn't expect them anytime soon.

                                  No land clearing is happening at DAK. Both of the major expansion plots are already cleared from original park construction. Remember though, the Pocahontas show closing was suppose to coincide with construction on the original BK plot. Those plans were shelved.

                                  Oh, calling Forbidden Journey a simple coaster is absolutely laughable. Nothing about it is even remotely like a coaster. Until you have ridden it, you cannot comprehend how unique and truly amazing the attraction really is.
                                  Oh drama! Who insulted the Forbidden Journey? I don't believe I did. But seriously, why Forbidden Journey can't be labeled "simple" is beyond me. Everyone's got their own tastes when it comes to rides and if someone views it as in ride that is beneath others that they value to them, well that is fine by me.

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                                  • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                    Man, this place is so negative... or should I say, people's "friends" are. I just have to be blunt and say that you're incorrect. There is much planned for the future, many of which are chuggin' right along just fine. Also, in the shorter term, FLE is going well and there are many surprises left to be seen.

                                    As for the placemaking issue, I will just have to agree to disagree. For years, dark rides were just painted flats, yet they projected emotion and wonderful means of storytelling. Even pirates is just simple scenic paint and foam construction for the most part. Hyper-detailed it is not, BUT it does have immersion oozing from everywhere. I have seen many an example of where expensive, realistic scenery wasn't used yet they experience of the show or attraction was better than most "theme" park attractions. So yes, I would reiterate that, while impressive, super detailed scenery isn't needed to placemake or create a meaningful emotional impact.

                                    Really, all of this is personal preference. People like things for different reasons and things that I might feel are arbitrary and superficial might be the exact same things that make you a fan. It doesn't mean one is right or wrong. What I appreciate about Disney is it gives a wide variety of these different experiences for everyone. I'm not a Disney apologist by any means, but I still maintain that there isn't a better collection of storytelling and a wide range of experiences anywhere else. That's just my opinion.
                                    Last edited by Taggart; 06-26-2010, 05:25 PM.

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                                    • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                      Harry Potter and the Forbidden Journey is not a roller coaster, just like Pirates of the Caribbean is not a baked potato. It is literally not the thing.

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                                      • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                        Originally posted by Krankenstein View Post
                                        I really hope I'm wrong, but nothing is suppose to be coming in to at least after FLE. The only possible thing I have heard is that after ST2, they are going to look at possibly expanding Pixar Place, possibly.

                                        And with that, I'm gone. Later MiceChat.
                                        Bing bing bing... and we have a winner.
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                                        • Re: Why the Imagineers can at any time beat WWohP, but at the same time can't

                                          Originally posted by Taggart View Post
                                          So yes, I would reiterate that, while impressive, super detailed scenery isn't needed to placemake or create a meaningful emotional impact.
                                          "God is in the details" - an axiom for theme park design among other things. I'll grant you hyper-detailing isn't a necessity for an emotional impact, but here are some less/more detailed versions of the same thing. You be the judge on which has a more "meaningful emotional impact":

















                                          ***

                                          The point being: building extraordinary detail is what set Disney apart for decades. Now Universal has put that super level of detailing into The Wizarding World. The result is pretty awesome.
                                          Last edited by RandySavage; 06-26-2010, 10:15 PM.

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