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  • #21
    Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

    Originally posted by disneyfann121 View Post
    DL's attendance boost is no big deal, considering that they bribe people to pack the parks by offering ludicrously cheap APs with a monthly payment plan. They've turned that park into a weekly hangout, like going to the mall. Not a good trend, and any idiot could do it.
    And snap!

    I think part of the problem with UO's attendance slide in 2009, is what travel destinations fear the most which is travel postponement due to a premiering attraction. It will be interesting to see the entire effect of the WWOHP come the end of this next quarter, and after a full year of operation. I know that all future plans for the UOR are being kept extremely under wraps so that they can have as little time between announcement and opening as possible.
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    • #22
      Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

      Originally posted by disneyfann121 View Post
      DL's attendance boost is no big deal, considering that they bribe people to pack the parks by offering ludicrously cheap APs with a monthly payment plan. They've turned that park into a weekly hangout, like going to the mall. Not a good trend, and any idiot could do it.
      It's not like cheap APs are brand new. They've been out for years already and the resort is still seeing strong growth despite hefty price increases each year. And if any idiot can do it how come nobody else can? Other Southern California parks have "buy a day get a year" passes and their attendance levels have gone down the toilet.

      ETA: Just looked up the price increases for the cheapest 2 APs over the last few years. At the start of 2008 the 2 SoCal APs were $129 and $169. In just 2.5 years they've increased in price to $184 and $239. I don't remember when the monthly plans started but any way you look at it that's still a huge increase in such a short time. It's getting to the point where the cheapest AP doesn't look that cheap anymore, what with it being valid only on the least desirable 170 days out of the year.
      Last edited by sheetz; 11-29-2010, 07:08 AM.

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      • #23
        Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

        Originally posted by sheetz View Post
        Overall DLR's results seem to be the most impressive because the attendance gains are coming on top of record crowds from the previous year. After Carsland debuts the crowds will be approaching Tokyo levels!
        Attendance gains without revenue gains = not to impressive.

        DLR is adding content to fill in the quieter times - but simply making their pre-paid admission people come more often rather then increasing ticket sales.

        With WDW Attendance flat - and overall park admissions only up 1%, and DCA seeing most of those added clicks... of which are really just people coming in from DL... the boost isn't really much of a boost at all. It's bodies moving about without paying anything.
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        Am I evil? yes, I am
        Am I evil? I am man, yes, I am

        Originally posted by sleepyjeff
        Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

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        • #24
          Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

          Incidentally, WDW also offers cheap APs to Florida residents.

          WDW Pass Prices (including tax)
          Premium (4 parks only) $403.64 (adult) $364.23 (child)
          Seasonal Pass $275.84 (adult) $249.21 (child)
          Select $185.31 (adult) $167.21 (child)

          It seems the cheaper SoCal passes are comparatively far more expensive than the WDW ones.

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          • #25
            Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

            Originally posted by KingEric View Post
            And snap!

            I think part of the problem with UO's attendance slide in 2009, is what travel destinations fear the most which is travel postponement due to a premiering attraction. It will be interesting to see the entire effect of the WWOHP come the end of this next quarter, and after a full year of operation. I know that all future plans for the UOR are being kept extremely under wraps so that they can have as little time between announcement and opening as possible.
            At least, the financial analysts think Harry Potter has staying power.

            Analysts say Potter frenzy will last

            By Jason Garcia and Sara K. Clarke, Orlando Sentinel
            5:42 PM EST, November 28, 2010
            Advertisement
            It is the central question facing Universal Orlando right now: How long will the Harry Potter-fueled attendance surge last?

            "Several years," predicts Moody's Investors Service.

            In a research note issued earlier this month, analysts at the ratings firm say they expect that Wizarding World of Harry Potter will continue to drive attendance through 2011 and beyond.

            "We believe the attendance lift generated from the June 2010 opening of WWHP will continue for the next several years," Moody's analyst John Puchalla wrote in the note.

            The $200 million-plus addition to the Islands of Adventure theme park has been a hit for Universal since it opened June 18. The resort said year-over-year attendance soared 36 percent during the July-through-September quarter and 36 percent again in October.

            Double-digit growth

            Looking forward, Moody's projects Universal's attendance will climb at least 15 percent during the first six months of next year. And while it says it expects attendance to dip "slightly" during the second half of 2011, that's only because Universal will by then be facing tough comparisons against this year's post-Potter-opening frenzy.

            Wizarding World "required significant capital investment, but the attraction is proving to be very appealing to consumers," Pucchalla wrote. "The boost from WWHP should persist such that attendance is at or above pre-recession levels even if the economic recovery is sluggish."

            What's more, if attendance does taper off in late 2011, Moody's said, profits should continue to rise.

            The firm said it expects in-park spending will keep rising, as guests continue to shell out for golden snitches and treacle fudge.

            It also noted that, next year, Universal will also not face the estimated $20 million in marketing costs it incurred this summer to support Wizarding World's grand opening.

            Stoking demand

            Universal, meanwhile, is doing everything it can to stoke the Potter fire.

            A week after turning over all 20 screens in its CityWalk movie megaplex to the premiere of "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 1," Universal last week launched a promotion offering many annual passholders the chance to download a popular Potter iPhone application for free.

            The "Harry Potter Spells" app lets iPhone, iPod and iPad users "cast" magical spells from one phone to another using hand motions.

            In addition, Universal this month formally introduced its new online merchandise store filled, not surprisingly, with many of the 600-plus Potter-themed items for sale throughout Wizarding World, along with other resort souvenirs.

            The site, Universal Studios Merchandise, first went live weeks after Wizarding World opened, as Universal sought to capitalize on frenzied demand for its Potter paraphernalia.

            Top sellers on the site so far? Harry Potter magic wands, Hedwig the Snowy Owl puppets, and Hogwarts school robes.

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            • #26
              Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

              Originally posted by flynnibus View Post

              With WDW Attendance flat - and overall park admissions only up 1%, and DCA seeing most of those added clicks... of which are really just people coming in from DL... the boost isn't really much of a boost at all. It's bodies moving about without paying anything.
              OK, let's calculate the numbers based on what we know. I don't remember what, if anything, they said about revenues, but let's look at attendance.

              Last year's combined attendance at WDW (millions): 17.2 + 11.0 + 9.7 + 9.6 + 47.5
              Last year's combined attendance at DLR (millions): 15.9 + 6.1 = 22.0
              Last year's combined attendance at WDW + DLR (millions): 47.5 + 22.0 = 69.5

              Disney says attendance at WDW declined, but was "within 1 percentage point" of last year's attendance. So we'll just say the decline was 1%.

              Projected attendance at WDW for 2010 is 47.5 - 0.475 = 47.025 million

              Disney says attendance at North American parks is up 1%, therefore projected attendance for North American parks in 2010 is 69.5 + 0.695 = 70.195 million

              Projected 2010 attendance at DLR would be 70.195 - 47.025 = 23.17 million

              Projected percentage increase at DLR for 2010 is 23.17/22.00 - 1 = 0.053, or 5.3%

              So if my calculations are correct DLR has seen an attendance increase of over 5%, which I consider to be quite good.

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              • #27
                Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

                Originally posted by sheetz View Post
                Incidentally, WDW also offers cheap APs to Florida residents.

                WDW Pass Prices (including tax)
                Premium (4 parks only) $403.64 (adult) $364.23 (child)
                Seasonal Pass $275.84 (adult) $249.21 (child)
                Select $185.31 (adult) $167.21 (child)

                It seems the cheaper SoCal passes are comparatively far more expensive than the WDW ones.
                Comparative to what? 4 parks vs 2? Come on you know that is not a meaningful comparison in this discussion. SoCal select is $184, SoCal is $227. The florida weekday is the closest to the SoCal select and is essentially the same price. The florida seasonal pass is $275/$250.

                So the passes are generally comparable in cost - the difference is SoCal population vs FL population. FL has 18 million people total... DLR has 13million in LA and Orange counties ALONE - not counting the rest of SoCal.


                Originally posted by sheetz View Post
                OK, let's calculate the numbers based on what we know. I don't remember what, if anything, they said about revenues, but let's look at attendance.
                The rest of this is pretty meaningless without the actual revenues - so your gloss over there is pretty much the meat of the matter. Admission clicks between parks when someone only paid one time isn't all that meaningful to actual financial performance.

                The part you skipped over in your loss of details is they claim 20% increase in attendance for DCA. So even going by your straw estimates... if DLR is 15.9+6.1 for 2009. If DCA alone did 20% increase, that is an increase of 1.2, and your estimate of 2010 of 23.17.. leaves an increase of only 1.17 over 2009, of which 1.2 are DCA clicks. Meaning DL is down, and DLR is only up because of DCA clicks - which are 'free' clicks because people don't really buy DCA only tickets, and DL doesn't sell single park tickets except for 1 day tickets.

                So everyone who goes to DL except for the single day guest pays for DCA regardless... so when DCA clicks go up... it doesn't really match an increase in revenue.

                And when all of your increase is in 'free' clicks - you get what Disney has now. Increases in attendance but almost no increases in revenues or profits.

                DCA's value will be measured in it's ability to boost Disney's bottom line in increased spending per guest and hotel stays. Attendance is fluffy numbers that really don't show the true story.
                Check out my blog - Coreplex: Rambling from inside the Grid


                Am I evil? yes, I am
                Am I evil? I am man, yes, I am

                Originally posted by sleepyjeff
                Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

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                • #28
                  Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

                  Originally posted by disneyfann121 View Post
                  DL's attendance boost is no big deal, considering that they bribe people to pack the parks by offering ludicrously cheap APs with a monthly payment plan. They've turned that park into a weekly hangout, like going to the mall. Not a good trend, and any idiot could do it.
                  No, they raised the Annual Pass prices again for Disneyland/DCA yet again, and by a healthy amount - to the point where offering "Low Monthly Payments!! was the only way they could sell them, I was seriously considering dumping my Premium for a year. Or more...

                  You say "Weekly Hangout" like it's a bad thing... :ap: Well, it can be, but only if they treat it wrong. Face it, WDW isn't smack in the middle of a metropolis big enough to fill it on their own, day trips aren't as practical for nearly as many people - you almost have to make a full-on vacation out of it.

                  The So-Cal Select ("Cheap") AP's aren't necessarily a bad idea only because it forces up the numbers in the "off season" and makes keeping the gates open all year feasible.

                  But the weeks before events like Christmas go bonkers as all those So-Cal AP people rush in on the few available days before they get blocked, especially when a new attraction opens - I deliberately avoided DCA when World Of Color opened, it was a zoo. It was a one or two weekend overlap before the Summer Blackout started, and it got crazy again when it ended. Same thing with Nemo Subs.

                  And WDW makes the AP's far less desirable (even more ludicrous prices) and the Multi-Day and Length Of Stay tickets more desirable - the price per day goes down the longer you stay. Despite the protestations that they shouldn't even exist, Disney is in charge of their own destiny in offering Annual Passes.

                  --<< Bruce >>
                  There's No Place Like 127.0.0.1

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                  • #29
                    Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

                    Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
                    Comparative to what? 4 parks vs 2? Come on you know that is not a meaningful comparison in this discussion. SoCal select is $184, SoCal is $227. The florida weekday is the closest to the SoCal select and is essentially the same price. The florida seasonal pass is $275/$250.
                    WDW has lower prices for the child passes, which brings down the average price of passes sold. Also it's not just the 2 parks to 4 parks thing, it's also the relative discount compared to a regularly priced pass.

                    Regular prices for 4 park WDW premium passes: $531.44 (adult) $479.25 (child)
                    Regular price for 2 Park DLR premium pass: $459 (all ages)

                    The FL Select passes are discounted more than the DLR Select passes.

                    Meaning DL is down, and DLR is only up because of DCA clicks - which are 'free' clicks because people don't really buy DCA only tickets, and DL doesn't sell single park tickets except for 1 day tickets.
                    What exactly is a "free" click? Do you really believe DLR would still sell the same number of multi-day tickets and APs if it weren't for DCA? Clearly when looking at attendance and revenues the whole resort needs to be taken as a whole, but Disney hasn't broken down the numbers by resort so we have no idea how DLR is doing on its own. Obviously profits and revenues are all that matter, but when Disney only gives a combined WDW/DLR figure it's virtually meaningless for DLR because WDW's numbers are an order of magnitude larger.

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                    • #30
                      Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

                      Originally posted by sheetz View Post
                      WDW has lower prices for the child passes, which brings down the average price of passes sold. Also it's not just the 2 parks to 4 parks thing, it's also the relative discount compared to a regularly priced pass.
                      Where does child get into this? The comparison was on the cheap-o passes. You can't really compare the cheap-o discount vs the premium... the premium is cheaper in DLR in part because of the shorter stays in DLR vs WDW. You don't want a 7-10 day person buying a AP in WDW - that is leaving money on the table. So the premium AP in WDW has a higher break-even point.

                      When you compare to the gate prices - all things are generally close (+/- 10%). The WDW premium is more expensive because of the need for a higher break-even point to not cannibalize their own MYW ticket sales.

                      Originally posted by sheetz View Post
                      The FL Select passes are discounted more than the DLR Select passes.
                      Only when you compare against a number that is artificially prop'd up. Your comparison is flaky. In general, both DLR and WDW are charging the similar amounts to their local resident populations... which isn't good when DLR has way more demand (in local population), and way less capacity (in terms of space/parks).

                      Originally posted by sheetz View Post
                      What exactly is a "free" click?
                      A free click is simply an admission that someone didn't intentionally go out of their way to buy. Free clicks can be a measure of popularity, but not a measure of performance. When someone has a park hopper and heads into DCA for 2hrs and then heads back to DL - DCA gets a click but not really a customer who paid for DCA. Because that same person would likely not have paid for that access if they had to pay something extra for it.

                      At DLR - only single day tickets pay extra for DCA. Everyone else gets DCA for 'free' as all multiday and AP programs are parkhoppers.

                      Disney counts the clicks regardless of how you paid. That's why DCA can have a 20% increase in attendance but not the corresponding match in revenues or profits. A 20% increase in DCA attendance without a significant increase in revenues simply means more people who already paid to have an option to go into DCA, exercised that option. The DCA clicks did not have a significant impact on actual ticket sales. Hence why 'free' clicks are so meaningless when looking at financial performance. They are metrics to gauge interest.. that's about it.

                      Originally posted by sheetz View Post
                      Do you really believe DLR would still sell the same number of multi-day tickets and APs if it weren't for DCA?
                      Compared to 1999? No. Compared to 2009? Yes, and the numbers that matter (revenue and profit) reflect that. Any increased interest in DCA was offset by discounting or satisfied with 'free clicks'.

                      You hint at what matters (upsold tickets and longer stays) and is exactly why DCA was built in the first place - but you are trying to use the metric that doesn't matter - clicks - to measure it's performance. The performance that matters is increasing ticket sales and hotel stays - things NOT seen in relation to the massive increase in DCA attendance. Hence why attendance heavily polluted with 'free clicks' is not really a significant factor. Guest spending, hotel occupancy, and top line revenue are the factors that DCA is to be measured for.

                      Originally posted by sheetz View Post
                      Clearly when looking at attendance and revenues the whole resort needs to be taken as a whole, but Disney hasn't broken down the numbers by resort so we have no idea how DLR is doing on its own. Obviously profits and revenues are all that matter, but when Disney only gives a combined WDW/DLR figure it's virtually meaningless for DLR because WDW's numbers are an order of magnitude larger.
                      Disney did quote the DCA boost - and the rest is based on numbers you provided. So are the numbers significant or not??

                      The reality is attendance numbers are fluff. They are not measured uniformly, and they are heavily polluted with 'free clicks' (due to park hopping and AP programs) that make them disconnected from actual financial performance.
                      Check out my blog - Coreplex: Rambling from inside the Grid


                      Am I evil? yes, I am
                      Am I evil? I am man, yes, I am

                      Originally posted by sleepyjeff
                      Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

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                      • #31
                        Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

                        Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
                        The reality is attendance numbers are fluff. They are not measured uniformly, and they are heavily polluted with 'free clicks' (due to park hopping and AP programs) that make them disconnected from actual financial performance.
                        This is 100% Theme Park Attendance is really broken down into the following catagories
                        1. Single Day Guest
                        2. Multi Day Guest
                        3. Annual Pass holder
                        4. Complimentary

                        As far as WDW is concerned I have always been very curious about the 4th. With 62,000 employees, 3rd Party Participants, and tens of thousand hospitality cards in the area, what percentage of overall attendance does that make up?

                        At a share holders meeting that is the question I would ask.
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                        • #32
                          Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

                          so doing some quick math. A CM gets to let in 12 times a year 3 people plus themselves. So including the CM that is a total of 4 x 12 = 48 So that means that if all CMs used their maingate for the year that would generate a total of 2,976,000 visits. With those being hopper passes for the day who knows how that spreads out over the entire Property.

                          WOW. So in the WDW attendance there could be almost 3,000,000 complimentary (not including 3rd party vendors, and Hospitality Passes) admissions to the WDW theme parks.
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                          • #33
                            Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

                            Originally posted by flynnibus View Post
                            Where does child get into this? The comparison was on the cheap-o passes.
                            I mean WDW sells separate Florida Select passes for both children and adults. The adult pass costs $185 while the child's select pass is $167. SoCal select passes cost $184 for everyone, therefore the average price of a Select pass sold is going to be a bit less in FL compared to CA.


                            Only when you compare against a number that is artificially prop'd up. Your comparison is flaky. In general, both DLR and WDW are charging the similar amounts to their local resident populations... which isn't good when DLR has way more demand (in local population), and way less capacity (in terms of space/parks).
                            I wouldn't say the WDW AP prices are artificially prop'd up, though. Unlike the WDW hotels the regular APs aren't typically sold at discounts and WDW does have a substantial number of passholders. It's true that DLR has a larger local population base, but I don't believe that necessarily makes a Socal Select pass any "cheaper" than a similarly priced Florida Select pass. People still have to want to go to the parks. As I said before, other local parks have been practically giving away their annual passes and their attendances have been plummeting.


                            Disney did quote the DCA boost - and the rest is based on numbers you provided. So are the numbers significant or not??
                            .
                            We can't be 100% sure unless Disney releases resort specific numbers, but based on what we have heard from people like Al regarding food and beverage sales as a result of WoC and Glowfest/Electronica I would guess that revenues and profits are up as well since those are items that visitors to DLR have not traditionally spent lots of money on in the past.
                            Last edited by sheetz; 11-29-2010, 12:20 PM.

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                            • #34
                              Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

                              Originally posted by sheetz View Post
                              Incidentally, WDW also offers cheap APs to Florida residents.

                              WDW Pass Prices (including tax)
                              Premium (4 parks only) $403.64 (adult) $364.23 (child)
                              Seasonal Pass $275.84 (adult) $249.21 (child)
                              Select $185.31 (adult) $167.21 (child)

                              It seems the cheaper SoCal passes are comparatively far more expensive than the WDW ones.
                              For a family of four, $1,200 is not exactly cheap.

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                              • #35
                                Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

                                Originally posted by sheetz View Post
                                I mean WDW sells separate Florida Select passes for both children and adults. The adult pass costs $185 while the child's select pass is $167. SoCal select passes cost $184 for everyone, therefore the average price of a Select pass sold is going to be a bit less in FL compared to CA.
                                You're complicating the matter - the earlier posts were about adult prices only in my post.. and costs are reasonably close to each other. Your point that SoCal passes are 'far more expensive' then the comparable FL passes is bunk.

                                Originally posted by sheetz View Post
                                I wouldn't say the WDW AP prices are artificially prop'd up, though
                                WDW AP pricing has to take into account that stays longer then 5 days are much more common then in DLR. The WDW pricing is not linear in that they try to get as much of their revenue from the sweet spot people are going to stay, and then try to lure them into staying longer with cheap tickets.

                                Because the DLR stays are so much shorter, there isn't as much 'runway' as they would say to smooth out the curve. The 'sweet' spot where Disney looks to get the greatest return on the attach rate is different.

                                Originally posted by sheetz View Post
                                It's true that DLR has a larger local population base, but I don't believe that necessarily makes a Socal Select pass any "cheaper" than a similarly priced Florida Select pass. People still have to want to go to the parks
                                It doesn't make it 'cheaper' it makes it UNDERVALUED. I already said they are relatively the same price - the issue is SoCal is so undervalued compared to the potential market.

                                Originally posted by sheetz View Post
                                As I said before, other local parks have been practically giving away their annual passes and their attendances have been plummeting
                                Generally because of the downward spirial over discounting causes. Too much discounting -> too little revenue -> less profit -> less investment -> less to attract the customers back next season -> lower attendance -> greater need to discount... and the cycle continues until you stagnate and die.

                                Discounting is intended to make you MORE money - not less. When it's not, and you continue to do so with no other corrective action.. you die.

                                Originally posted by sheetz View Post
                                We can't be 100% sure unless Disney releases resort specific numbers, but based on what we have heard from people like Al regarding food and beverage sales as a result of WoC and Glowfest/Electronica I would guess that revenues and profits are up as well since those are items that visitors to DLR have not traditionally spent lots of money on in the past.
                                First, Disney does release numbers we can make good inferences from... revenue is flat, profit is down, attendance is flat. I'm not sure why you don't want to read the info from Disney. http://corporate.disney.go.com/inves...gs/2010_q4.pdf And Al reported that spending is NOT following the spikes in attendance, not the other way around... the positive news of late has been from the paid ticket events and special event spending. Disney's PR mentions higher DLR attendance, and separately mentions a 20% attendance increase for DCA in the Orlando Sent. article.

                                At the end of the day - what matters is revenue and profit - not fluffy attendance numbers.
                                Check out my blog - Coreplex: Rambling from inside the Grid


                                Am I evil? yes, I am
                                Am I evil? I am man, yes, I am

                                Originally posted by sleepyjeff
                                Disneyland was meant to be sipped not chug-a-lugged

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                                • #36
                                  Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

                                  Originally posted by flynnibus View Post

                                  First, Disney does release numbers we can make good inferences from... revenue is flat, profit is down, attendance is flat. I'm not sure why you don't want to read the info from Disney. http://corporate.disney.go.com/inves...gs/2010_q4.pdf
                                  There's nothing in there that hasn't been stated in articles and press releases. Again, I said we don't know *resort specific* numbers, i.e., numbers broken down by East and West Coast operations. We can't make any kind of inferences about DLR from combined figures because WDW dominates the profits and revenues numbers by even more than it does in attendance figures. If WDW pulls in 7 or 8 times the profit and revenue that DLR does, then even fairly solid gains in CA can be wiped out by relatively minor losses in FL.

                                  The only reference I can find to Disneyland specifically are in this paragraph:

                                  "For the year, decreased operating income at our domestic operations was due to higher costs at our domestic resorts, lower hotel occupancy and attendance at Walt Disney World Resort and a decrease at Disney Cruise Line, partially offset by higher guest spending at our domestic resorts, primarily due to higher average ticket prices and increased attendance at Disneyland Resort. Increased costs at domestic resorts reflected labor cost inflation, higher pension and post-retirement medical expenses and costs for new guest offerings including World of Color at Disneyland Resort."

                                  From this excerpt it's clear that WDW is slumping but it's really not at all clear just how well DLR is doing.

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                                  • #37
                                    Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

                                    Originally posted by SeeJackRunn View Post
                                    Actually when I went to WWHOP I found it made the rest of the park look like garbage and the rest of the guests avoided all other areas of Universal like the plague. Harry Potter has a great ride, but it's just too small for it to be more than a few hour event. In the end I think Universal created something great, but it also hurt themself in my opinion because nothing else they have measures up.
                                    Originally posted by KingEric View Post
                                    That is a interesting opinion SeeJackRunn, one that I have only heard on this message board. Question to you, how does customer service compare to you UO vs WDW. Personally I have much BETTER customer service at UO vs WDW
                                    I feel the same way as SeeJackRun. We went to Universal before Harry Potter opened, but it just wasn't our thing. IOA looked worn and run down, and nothing really interested us at all. Would we go back for Harry Potter? Absolutely! But, I'm not planning an entire vacation around it either...

                                    As for customer service, I think it's hit or miss. Personally, I think I have gotten much better customer service at WDW than Universal, but I think it depends on the day, the situation, etc. I really can't think of any BAD customer experiences at either, but for me, WDW CMs have always gone above and beyond for me, while Universal's (in the granted, only 1 day we were there) did not.
                                    It's a Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah...Tip for Today!









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                                    • #38
                                      Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

                                      Originally posted by SummerInFL View Post
                                      For a family of four, $1,200 is not exactly cheap.
                                      It is cheap, compared to what tourists pay for a lot less time at DLR. It costs more than $1200 for flights + hotel + park tickets, and when we get there, the park is overwhelmed by hordes of AP holders all year long. And with the monthly payment plans for the SoCal pass (what is it now, $8 per month? $10? Laughable) we pay big bucks for the privilege of standing in line behind people who paid pennies on the dollar to get in the park.

                                      This game of "screw the tourists" has to end. Due to overcrowding, the quality of the park experience is going downhill, and the long term sustainability of DLR is threatened. Currently, the resort is in a downward spiral of ever increasing reliance on locals and flat or declining revenue despite swelling attendance. This increasingly alienates tourists, who will look to other destinations to spend their vacation dollars, which will make DLR even more dependent on locals who pay a pittance per visit.

                                      Maintenance, refurbishment, crowd control and CM costs go up due to the sheer number of bodies trooping through the parks, while revenues don't correspond to the number of people (over)crowding the place. Come on, folks, this is sustainable in the long run? This is a recipe for a stagnating park that can't afford to improve and innovate, and might explain the glacial pace of new attractions at both resorts (although tight-wad management has something to do with it, too).
                                      Last edited by disneyfann121; 12-01-2010, 06:24 AM.

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                                      • #39
                                        Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

                                        Originally posted by disneyfann121 View Post
                                        It is we pay big bucks for the privilege of standing in line behind people who paid pennies on the dollar to get in the park.

                                        This game of "screw the tourists" has to end. Due to overcrowding, the quality of the park experience is going downhill, and the long term sustainability of DLR is threatened. Currently, the resort is in a downward spiral of ever increasing reliance on locals and flat or declining revenue despite swelling attendance. This increasingly alienates tourists, who will look to other destinations to spend their vacation dollars, which will make DLR even more dependent on locals who pay a pittance per visit.

                                        Maintenance, refurbishment, crowd control and CM costs go up due to the sheer number of bodies trooping through the parks, while revenues don't correspond to the number of people (over)crowding the place. Come on, folks, this is sustainable in the long run? This is a recipe for a stagnating park that can't afford to improve and innovate, and might explain the glacial pace of new attractions at both resorts (although tight-wad management has something to do with it, too).
                                        I 1,000,000% agree!!!!! I hate riding Haunted Mansion at DLR because of all the locals who ruin the pre-show, but quiting along.

                                        Not to mention the fact that they game the FP system, and Monopolize nighttime shows and viewing spots.

                                        Dustysage had some great suggestions about crowding problems in the Disneyland Forum, and I have to say that I agree. I think FP should be for day guests ONLY and not APs.
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                                        • #40
                                          Re: Disney World reports flat attendance and tries to conceal it.

                                          Originally posted by disneyfann121 View Post
                                          It is cheap, compared to what tourists pay for a lot less time at DLR. It costs more than $1200 for flights + hotel + park tickets, and when we get there, the park is overwhelmed by hordes of AP holders all year long. And with the monthly payment plans for the SoCal pass (what is it now, $8 per month? $10? Laughable) we pay big bucks for the privilege of standing in line behind people who paid pennies on the dollar to get in the park.

                                          This game of "screw the tourists" has to end. Due to overcrowding, the quality of the park experience is going downhill, and the long term sustainability of DLR is threatened. Currently, the resort is in a downward spiral of ever increasing reliance on locals and flat or declining revenue despite swelling attendance. This increasingly alienates tourists, who will look to other destinations to spend their vacation dollars, which will make DLR even more dependent on locals who pay a pittance per visit.

                                          Maintenance, refurbishment, crowd control and CM costs go up due to the sheer number of bodies trooping through the parks, while revenues don't correspond to the number of people (over)crowding the place. Come on, folks, this is sustainable in the long run? This is a recipe for a stagnating park that can't afford to improve and innovate, and might explain the glacial pace of new attractions at both resorts (although tight-wad management has something to do with it, too).
                                          It's hypocritical of Disney after all the effort they put into turning Disneyland into a destination resort.

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