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  • disneyfann121
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    Thanks, Coheteboy.

    I think anyone who has read a lot of my posts knows that I'm no Disney apologist. I've done my share of criticism. I was just reacting to the tone of your post, Mr. Wiggins.

    Leave a comment:


  • Coheteboy
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    Mr. Wiggins, that's not going to fly this time. Try to be more respectful please.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr Wiggins
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    Originally posted by disneyfann121 View Post
    ...condescending ...insulting ...full of bitterness ...unfair half-truths...
    Unfortunately the motive here seems to be less "just trying to maintain some balance and fairness on these boards," and more to sling ad hominem labels at Disney's critics.

    Leave a comment:


  • disneyfann121
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    Originally posted by taagsmash View Post
    My post was about the new queue system, nothing else. The reason I mentioned Harry Potter is because the reason it is so successful is due to being more 'Disney' then anything the Disney Parks have done recently. Trust me, I wish this wasn't the case, but I feel like their billion dollars for the reservation/ interactive queues could be used on maybe improving the show for once. Thats all that matters, but Staggs' remarks yesterday prove he doesn't realize that. He just wants things to change so they can appear revolutionary.
    I thought you were referring to the examples I gave in my posts. Sorry if I misunderstood.

    As for the new queue system, when they first announced this new technological doodad, I argued that the money would be far better spent on new rides or lands, refurbs, and upgrades on existing attractions. So I agree that show is the real priority, and should be their primary focus.

    Leave a comment:


  • mr. taag
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    Originally posted by disneyfann121 View Post
    We could argue artistic merit 'til we're blue in the face; art is in the eye of the beholder. To me, theme parks are about popular entertainment, and, more specifically, they are about experience. When Disney offers an experience that appeals to the majority of their theme park guests, then they've succeeded, whether or not it can be labelled highly innovative or artistic. When an attraction gets thumbs down from most guests, then they've failed.

    I don't believe that Disney innovates just for the sake of innovation. They use technology to create the experience that they envision. Sometimes the result has been an inferior attraction, and sometimes the result was great. The same can be said for Universal; no one bats .1000 (even if WWOHP is a bases-loaded home run).
    My post was about the new queue system, nothing else. The reason I mentioned Harry Potter is because the reason it is so successful is due to being more 'Disney' then anything the Disney Parks have done recently. Trust me, I wish this wasn't the case, but I feel like their billion dollars for the reservation/ interactive queues could be used on maybe improving the show for once. Thats all that matters, but Staggs' remarks yesterday prove he doesn't realize that. He just wants things to change so they can appear revolutionary.

    Leave a comment:


  • disneyfann121
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Meaning no offense, your definition of "innovation" is as off the mark as your facts of Disneyland history. You really need to read up on the development of the first-generation AA's.

    Again, no offense, just sayin'.
    Actually, I didn't even offer a definition, although that doesn't stop you from being condescending and borderline insulting (and saying "no offense" afterwards doesn't change that). I dont know what your definition is, nor do I give a damn; it's no more inherently "on the mark" than mine.
    And no, Disney did not invent robotics, a technology that dates back to the early part of the 20th century. Walt's imagineers built on the knowledge that was current at the time. For example, the first concept of the AA was inspired by a mechanical bird that Walt bought while on vacation.

    Sample-bias much? The fact is that these boards are overwhelmingly pro-Disney. Threads of fan photos, fun trip reports and happiness far outnumber those that criticize Disney.
    I don't know if that's a fact. You seem to think everything you say is a "fact", instead of an opinion.
    I do know that posts such as the ones you write, often full of bitterness and unfair half-truths, stick out like a sore thumb.
    Last edited by disneyfann121; 02-18-2011, 01:06 PM.

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  • Mr Wiggins
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    Originally posted by disneyfann121 View Post
    Just to give two examples: he used the robotics technology that was available at the time in order to develop AAs.
    Meaning no offense, your definition of "innovation" is as off the mark as your facts of Disneyland history. You really need to read up on the development of the first-generation AA's.

    Again, no offense, just sayin'.


    Originally posted by disneyfann121 View Post
    I'm just trying to maintain some balance and fairness on these boards.
    Sample-bias much? The fact is that these boards are overwhelmingly pro-Disney. Threads of fan photos, fun trip reports and happiness far outnumber those that criticize Disney.

    Leave a comment:


  • KingEric
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    Originally posted by disneyfann121 View Post
    I don't believe that Disney innovates just for the sake of innovation. They use technology to create the experience that they envision. Sometimes the result has been an inferior attraction, and sometimes the result was great. The same can be said for Universal; no one bats .1000 (even if WWOHP is a bases-loaded home run).
    You hit the nail on the head.

    You don't have to be on the bleeding edge of technology, it is all about the story, and how you use that technology to tell that story. If a technology is needed to further a story, then innovate, be creative, be driven.

    The Ballroom scene in the haunted mansion didn't use "cutting edge" technology at the time it was built, it was a brilliant application of a very old stage trick.

    Leave a comment:


  • disneyfann121
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    Originally posted by taagsmash View Post
    But thats innovation just for the sake of innovation. The Disney of yesterland firmly believed in innovation for the sake of art. That is something that is lost in today's disney parks, but hey, we can't all be Universal.
    We could argue artistic merit 'til we're blue in the face; art is in the eye of the beholder. To me, theme parks are about popular entertainment, and, more specifically, they are about experience. When Disney offers an experience that appeals to the majority of their theme park guests, then they've succeeded, whether or not it can be labelled highly innovative or artistic. When an attraction gets thumbs down from most guests, then they've failed.

    I don't believe that Disney innovates just for the sake of innovation. They use technology to create the experience that they envision. Sometimes the result has been an inferior attraction, and sometimes the result was great. The same can be said for Universal; no one bats .1000 (even if WWOHP is a bases-loaded home run).

    Leave a comment:


  • disneyfann121
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    Not at all. Given the enormous number of customers who had little or no experience with Disney Parks in the decades before Eisner, the standard that "Disney is better than other theme parks" is sufficient to maintain their interest.
    Really? Then how do you explain all the micechatters who DO have a lot of experience and have sampled the competition, and are still interested in Disney's offerings? Yes we often criticize, because we know the company has the resources to do better, but we still visit their parks.

    Those are good improvements and adaptations of available tech, but not innovation. Not the kind of innovation that took Disneyland from Rocket to the Moon to Pirates of the Caribbean in 12 years.

    WOC's Bellagio-on-steroids water show and TSMM's ride-thru video game, while good offerings, are not remotely comparable in groundbreaking theme park creativity, invention and innovation to that of Disneyland's first decades.
    I used to go to Disneyland as a kid in the 70s, and nothing in the park was even remotely close in technology to what the company has introduced in the past few decades. Even if they don't push the boundaries as fast as Walt did, it doesn't mean that they haven't given us new kinds of theme park experiences. If Walt could see this stuff today, his jaw would drop to the floor.

    You argue that the company today adapts available technology for their own use in the theme parks. Well, of course they do. So does Universal (e.g., they bought the rights to the Kuka arm; they didn't invent it), and so did Walt. Just to give two examples: he used the robotics technology that was available at the time in order to develop AAs. He used the Pepper's Ghost illusion (invented in the late 1800s) in the Haunted Mansion.

    Again, I'm not trying to argue that the company is innovating as much as they should. I'm just trying to maintain some balance and fairness on these boards. We rake them over the coals when they fail; let's also give credit when credit is due.
    Last edited by disneyfann121; 02-18-2011, 07:14 AM.

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  • mr. taag
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    But thats innovation just for the sake of innovation. The Disney of yesterland firmly believed in innovation for the sake of art. That is something that is lost in today's disney parks, but hey, we can't all be Universal.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr Wiggins
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    Originally posted by disneyfann121 View Post
    But if the situation was as bleak as Mr. Wiggins says, then the parks would hold very little interest for us anymore.
    Not at all. Given the enormous number of customers who had little or no experience with Disney Parks in the decades before Eisner, the standard that "Disney is better than other theme parks" is sufficient to maintain their interest.



    Originally posted by disneyfann121 View Post
    They introduced the concept of interactive rides with Buzz Lightyear, and then advanced it with TSMM (the world's first interactive 3D/4D ride). They have steadily improved the art of AAs, with state of the art animatronics like Lincoln, Mr. Potato Head and the Yeti (when he was working, he was awesome indeed). DHS's TOT was innovative in many ways. WOC makes cutting edge use of projections. And so on.
    Those are good improvements and adaptations of available tech, but not innovation. Not the kind of innovation that took Disneyland from Rocket to the Moon to Pirates of the Caribbean in 12 years.

    WOC's Bellagio-on-steroids water show and TSMM's ride-thru video game, while good offerings, are not remotely comparable in groundbreaking theme park creativity, invention and innovation to that of Disneyland's first decades.



    Originally posted by disneyfann121 View Post
    However, to imply that the company is entirely devoid of innovation is unfair.
    You're right. Under the brilliant leadership of Tom Staggs, innovation abounds -- just look!
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 02-17-2011, 07:02 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • disneyfann121
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    I agree. The problem facing Bob, Tom and the Company, however, isn't that WDW is in better shape than DL was under Pressler (it would be difficult to have a theme park in worse shape than DL was under Pressler!). Nor is the problem the amount of money the Company is spending, the number of rides it is building, or the profits it is reporting.

    The problem is that the Company has shifted its model from being a world class creative innovator in theme parks, to running its parks as a chain of marketing malls with rides -- essentially Disney stores on steroids. Which is, as you know, a variation on the Eisner/Pressler model.

    Pre-Eisner, the business model was risk-taking innovation that created product aimed as much at the creators themselves as at the general audience. Under Iger and Staggs, the business model is research-driven, lifestyle-brand marketing aimed at specific (primarily juvenile) consumer demographics.

    It was put perfectly in another thread:



    To which truth Bob and Tom and their team remain, as Michael was, in denial.
    I agree that Disney doesn't do nearly enough innovative trail blazing and risk taking, and that they often follow rather than lead. And they would be a far richer company today if they had kept the Walt spirit and business model alive.

    However, to imply that the company is entirely devoid of innovation is unfair. They introduced the concept of interactive rides with Buzz Lightyear, and then advanced it with TSMM (the world's first interactive 3D/4D ride). They have steadily improved the art of AAs, with state of the art animatronics like Lincoln, Mr. Potato Head and the Yeti (when he was working, he was awesome indeed). DHS's TOT was innovative in many ways. WOC makes cutting edge use of projections. And so on.

    Granted, the company could be making more reinvestment and pushing a lot more boundaries, and they have dropped the ball in some cases. But if the situation was as bleak as Mr. Wiggins says, then the parks would hold very little interest for us anymore.

    That's clearly not the case, or we wouldn't even be on Micechat.

    Leave a comment:


  • toonaspie
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    At this point, I don't care if Disney can't compete with Potter. Just get some more rides into DAK and DHS and I will be content.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr Wiggins
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    Originally posted by disneyfann121 View Post
    MEven if WWOHP has outshone anything at WDW, that doesn't mean that the Orlando parks are being neglected like Disneyland under Pressler. They are adding new attractions (new Fantasyland and Star Tours II coming up), the parks are not falling apart, and there haven't been any fatal accidents (not on rides, anyway).
    I agree. The problem facing Bob, Tom and the Company, however, isn't that WDW is in better shape than DL was under Pressler (it would be difficult to have a theme park in worse shape than DL was under Pressler!). Nor is the problem the amount of money the Company is spending, the number of rides it is building, or the profits it is reporting.

    The problem is that the Company has shifted its model from being a world class creative innovator in theme parks, to running its parks as a chain of marketing malls with rides -- essentially Disney stores on steroids. Which is, as you know, a variation on the Eisner/Pressler model.

    Pre-Eisner, the business model was risk-taking innovation that created product aimed as much at the creators themselves as at the general audience. Under Iger and Staggs, the business model is research-driven, lifestyle-brand marketing aimed at specific (primarily juvenile) consumer demographics.

    It was put perfectly in another thread:

    Originally posted by mycroft16
    What Disney seems to have forgotten is that Disney used to dictate what was cool. Now they send out surveys and do focus groups to find out what is cool.

    So they went from setting the trend to following the trend.

    From a purely selfish stand point, there is a lot more money to be made in setting the trend. It requires pure, unfettered creativity, risk and often times quite a bit of investment, so it can seem scary... but the payout can dwarf anything you put in. I.E. $17 million invested in Disneyland turning into a multi-billion dollar a year business with 11 theme parks world-wide and more on the way.

    Unfortunately, Disney prefers to find "built-in" audiences and tailor their offerings to those niche audiences rather than creating something new and exciting that draws everyone in from all walks of life. Which was kind of the whole fundamental purpose of Disney... to offer things that appealed to everyone.
    To which truth Bob and Tom and their team remain, as Michael was, in denial.

    Leave a comment:


  • disneyfann121
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    Originally posted by Mr Wiggins View Post
    True. As can be seen in what's happening with WDW vs. what's happening with WWoHP, this definitely is the Iger/Staggs era.

    For those familiar with the Company's internal denial and external groupspeak when WDFA was beginning its decline and Pixar beginning its ascendancy, the similarities between then and now are riotously comical -- in a sadly ironic way.

    As are the partisan reactions, then and now, of the fans.
    Mr. Wiggins, we have often agreed in the past, but not now (assuming that I understood your post correctly). Even if WWOHP has outshone anything at WDW, that doesn't mean that the Orlando parks are being neglected like Disneyland under Pressler. They are adding new attractions (new Fantasyland and Star Tours II coming up), the parks are not falling apart, and there haven't been any fatal accidents (not on rides, anyway).

    Leave a comment:


  • lazyboy97O
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    Originally posted by jedited View Post
    Because hyping those properties does NOTHING for Disney. Disney doesn't get ANY of the benefit from it. If a kid gets excited about Star Wars while at WDW and goes home and watches Star Wars the Clone Wars, Disney gets NOTHING.
    Plus Star Wars and Indiana Jones were built and/or conceived when Disney had a long streak of failed film properties. Disney brought them in because they had no other choice AT THE TIME.
    Again, I love both of these properties and Disney has in some sense been tied to them as well, but it is NOT in Disney's best interest to focus on intelluctal properties that it doesn't own.
    You have obviously never attended Star Wars Weekends.

    Leave a comment:


  • wdwprince
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    I personally know three people who went to Orlando with families last month to visit the parks. Two of the families split their time between Universal and Disney. One family decided to just visit Universal and decided against Disney. I don't think Harry Potter is bringing customers Disney's way so much as Disney's customers are going Universal's way to see Harry Potter.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr Wiggins
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    ^ As with WDFA vs. Pixar in a previous decade, Disney's problem isn't what the current competition has vs. what Disney doesn't have. It's the process by which the competition and Disney arrived in their current positions. If you think this is just about a ride or a land or a franchise, you're as much in denial as Michael was in thinking that the problem with WDFA's flops was its directors.

    Hint: Disney hasn't done theme park innovation for over a decade and a half. It's not in their mindset, their business model or their blood. They don't build in-house depth and brilliance, they don't invest in R&D for the long haul, and they don't take creative risks. Instead, they buy the competition and market its franchise brands, as inexpensively and efficiently as possible.

    Universal's on a roll. Disney's in denial. It will be interesting to see how they buy-and-market their way around this one.
    Last edited by Mr Wiggins; 02-10-2011, 02:40 PM.

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  • Neon Cactus
    replied
    Re: Tom Staggs comments on the Wizarding World of Harry Potter

    I still think Disney is in a good position. I haven't visited the Harry Potter area yet, but what Universal has is an incredibly themed area with one new attraction, along with the atmosphere. The other two rides are just repurposed attractions. Universal also has two parks and 3 expensive resorts. Unless you have people on a long weekend, they're likely to visit Universal and then go to Disney. So Disney is still going to get those visitors.

    So in that respect, there's no problem that Disney didn't have anything to directly compete with Universal. They were still getting visitors that were hitting Universal. Now this year and moving forward, they have the revamped Star Tours and the upgraded Fantasyland, so next year, when Universal has nothing major new to offer, Disney can get the tourists back from Universal. I think Disney World will be just fine.

    Leave a comment:

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